Wannabe (Neutral Unknown) - 350+ Views!!

Old Role Ideas

What are your opinions on the Wannabe?

Perfect, this should be added right away!
6
18%
This has potential, just a little bit of tweaking and it will be good enough to be added.
7
21%
The idea was good but this role would not work in the game.
4
12%
Nope, this role just isn't good enough, and I will post some constructive critism in the comments.
1
3%
It's overpowered and wins every time.
4
12%
It's underpowered and hard to win as.
3
9%
It's well balanced and will win some and lose some.
8
24%
 
Total votes : 33

Wannabe (Neutral Unknown) - 350+ Views!!

Postby SomeCatchyName9 » Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:32 pm

DISCLAIMER: Before you comment, please please please read this thread completely.

Role:
Wannabe

Alignment:
Neutral Unknown

Neutral Unknown is an alignment that cannot be put in a game, like the current Neutral Chaos. This means that the only way roles from Neutral Unknown will be in the game in Ranked is through the Any spot. This keeps the role's presence unknown. Neutral Unknown consists of Vampires (Neutral Chaos is removed) and Wannabes.

Role Card:
Summary:
An aspiring criminal rejected from the Mafia.
Abilities:
Disguise as another player to protect yourself from investigators.
Attributes:
The current Leader is <player name>.
If the Mafia is eliminated, you will commit suicide the next night.
You cannot be killed by the Mafia at night.
Goal:
Survive to see Mafia win the game.

Win Conditions:
Wins with:
Mafia, Witches, Survivors
Must kill:
Town, Serial Killers, Arsonists, Werewolves, Vampires. You may spare anyone else.

Specials:
Unique role
Mafia kill immune
Bite immune

Investigative Results:
Investigator (v2.1 of orange's results) - Your target stalks people. He must be a Lookout, Forger, Wannabe or Amnesiac.
Consigliere: Your target stalks the Mafia. He must be a Wannabe.
Sheriff: Your target is a member of the Mafia.

Additional Information:
The 'Leader of the Mafia' is the Godfather. If there is no Godfather, the Leader is the current Mafioso.
If the Mafia wins and you are alive, their win will be turned into a loss, and the end game message will read: "Wannabe Wins". For this reason, Mafia must kill you to win.
If the Godfather dies, you will get the name of the new Leader the next night.
Disguising as someone only affects Investigator, Consigliere and Sheriff results. Should you die that night, you will still revealed as Wannabe.
The investigative results shown above will only be seen if you don't disguise that night, or a Witch or Transporter makes him disguise himself.

I really like this role as it's simple to understand but much more complex to play and win as. You need to help the Mafia to win, but at the same time, if the Mafia finds out who you are, they will try and get you lynched.

Messages:
When Mafia attacks the Wannabe, they get the 'target is immune' message.
"The Leader of the Mafia has died!" - When the current GF/Mafioso dies at night
"After stalking the Mafia, you have found the new Leader, <player name>." - When there is a new GF/Mafioso.
"The Mafia has been eliminated and you have committed suicide over the guilt! You have died!" - The night after the final Mafia dies.
"<player name> died last night. He died of guilt." - Public death message if you commit suicide.
"You have decided to disguise as <player name> tonight." - When disguising

Achievements:
This Is What You Get: Win your first game as Wannabe
Shouldn't Have Rejected Me: Win 5 games as Wannabe
I Could Have Helped You: Win 10 games as Wannabe
Reject Me Again, I Dare You: Win 25 games as Wannabe

That's How It Should Be: Disguise as a member of the Mafia
You Got Fooled: Successfully save yourself from a Sheriff, Investigator, or Consigliere
Can't Kill Me: Be targeted by the Mafia
Mistakes Were Made: Vote guilty on the final Mafia
No Point In Staying: Commit suicide after Mafia is eliminated
What's The Point: Disguise as yourself

Strategy:
Wannabes can pretend to be Survivors or Won Executioners, to ensure their survival to the end of the game. This also helps them defend themselves if a Mafia death note calls them out for being immune.
If a Survivor/Executioner claim is leading towards the Mafia's side too much, even though siding with another faction would be a better choice, Mafia need to be careful and try and maybe get them lynched.
But anyone too keen on lynching a Survivor claim without a Werewolf in the game, may be accused as Mafia trying to lynch a Wannabe.
In addition, the longer the Wannabe is alive, the longer he can support the Mafia. If the Mafia know what they're doing, they can keep the Wannabe alive to gain an extra vote, but then lynch him right at the end.
Jesters can actually act like a Wannabe to get lynched in the endgame. Mafia must be wary about this.
As a Wannabe, try to disguise as the role you are claiming to be, or a role that appears on the same Investigator result. For example, as an Executioner claim you want to disguise as an Executioner, but if you don't know who he is, disguising as a Sheriff has the exact same effect (except for a Consigliere).
You may want to disguise as a Mafia ally in the endgame, for example a Witch, if you know they have a Consigliere. This can gain their trust and they may not see the Wannabe win coming.
As an investigative, if you are unsure of the results of a player, investigate them again the next night. However this may waste a night, and the Wannabe can disguise as the same person again if they want to.

Well this is my first role idea, and I hope you like it :)

Here's how you can help!

When giving your feedback, please take some time to help me by considering these points:
What are your opinions on the disguise ability
Currently this role is quite underpowered. If you can think of balanced ways to make this role easier to win as, that would be great.
Please think carefully before posting. I do not appreciate hate comments that are only one line long. Please put some thought into your comment, thoroughly explaining what you think it's wrong with the role, and perhaps suggesting a fix. Thank you.


Thanks :)

Changelog
04/11/16
Added Strategy section
28/10/16
Changed alignment to Neutral Unknown (previously Benign)
Changed ability to Disguise (previously Guard)
Changed Sheriff result to 'Mafia' (previously not suspicious)
27/10/16
Changed alignment to Benign (previously Evil)
Changed ability to Guard (previously Heal)
Last edited by SomeCatchyName9 on Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:25 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Wannabe (Neutral Evil)

Postby GodFocker » Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:51 pm

This is amazing! Really detailed work, I think you should change the alignment of the Wannabe to Neutral Chaos, Neutral Evil just doesn't quite fit to me.
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Re: Wannabe (Neutral Evil)

Postby SomeCatchyName9 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:52 am

GodFocker wrote:This is amazing! Really detailed work, I think you should change the alignment of the Wannabe to Neutral Chaos, Neutral Evil just doesn't quite fit to me.


Thanks!!

I'm not actually sure what the difference between Neutral Benign, Evil and Chaos is. If someone could explain that to me, that would be great :D
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Re: Wannabe (Neutral Evil)

Postby BlazinIce » Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:54 am

Ok, I can see you're new, so I'll explain why this role is bad.
A: Godfathers already immune, and you can only make mafioso immune
B: Neutral Evils shouldn't cheat mafia out of a win.
C: Neutral Evils should also win with NKs.
D: this role is extremely weak, because it makes one role immune. That's all.
E: Neutral Evils win with NKs and mafia, Neutral Benigns have to complete a goal, and Neutral Chaos is bad. Don't make NC roles.
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Re: Wannabe (Neutral Evil)

Postby SomeCatchyName9 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:05 am

BlazinIce wrote:Ok, I can see you're new, so I'll explain why this role is bad.
A: Godfathers already immune, and you can only make mafioso immune
B: Neutral Evils shouldn't cheat mafia out of a win.
C: Neutral Evils should also win with NKs.
D: this role is extremely weak, because it makes one role immune. That's all.
E: Neutral Evils win with NKs and mafia, Neutral Benigns have to complete a goal, and Neutral Chaos is bad. Don't make NC roles.


A: Completely forgot that. How about it roleblocks anyone who visits the GF? That may give away the GF though. How about the Wannabe gets the same power as a doc?
B and C: Yeh I should probably change the alignment
D: Hmm... Should I give it a self vesting feature? It's also immune to the Mafia
E: Ahhh ok. Well I'm not sure where this role fits then. Benign I guess?

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Re: Wannabe (Neutral Evil)

Postby Spectre0 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:02 pm

Godfather's friggin immune m8

Also mafia doesn't need a protector
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Re: Wannabe (Neutral Evil)

Postby SomeCatchyName9 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:32 pm

Spectre0 wrote:Godfather's friggin immune m8

Also mafia doesn't need a protector

I realised that in my previous post :p should I make this into a doc? A doc with a different goal and he knows who the gf is.

This isn't a Mafia protector. This is a hinderance for the Mafia, as they cannot win while he is alive. So the Mafia must get him lynched, and thus the "Protector" dies
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Re: Wannabe (Neutral Evil)

Postby Spectre0 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:01 pm

SomeCatchyName9 wrote:
Spectre0 wrote:Godfather's friggin immune m8

Also mafia doesn't need a protector

I realised that in my previous post :p should I make this into a doc? A doc with a different goal and he knows who the gf is.

This isn't a Mafia protector. This is a hinderance for the Mafia, as they cannot win while he is alive. So the Mafia must get him lynched, and thus the "Protector" dies


Ah, that makes far more sense.

Any role that can heal evils is overpowered because in lots of situations town relies heavily on the kills from vig/jailor. Making a mafia doctor is a bad idea, especially since a doctor who has to be lynched by maf to win has no actual motivation to help mafia. Sure, he needs them to survive, but revealing his presence only puts a target on his back from mafia anyway. A lot of wannabes would essentially play as a weaker survivor.
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Re: Wannabe (Neutral Evil)

Postby SomeCatchyName9 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:47 pm

Spectre0 wrote:
Ah, that makes far more sense.

Any role that can heal evils is overpowered because in lots of situations town relies heavily on the kills from vig/jailor. Making a mafia doctor is a bad idea, especially since a doctor who has to be lynched by maf to win has no actual motivation to help mafia. Sure, he needs them to survive, but revealing his presence only puts a target on his back from mafia anyway. A lot of wannabes would essentially play as a weaker survivor.


Ohhhh I don't think the goal was clear enough, sorry!

Basically the Wannabe needs to be alive when Mafia win, but Mafia must kill the Wannabe, otherwjse they lose.

Honestly the main reason I like this role is its win condition. Apart from that even I can agree it needs some work.

Eg. If a Wannabe reveals, it will likely not be lynched by town as it isn't a threat to town, it's just a doctor.
Basically what I need to do is add something to this role that gives Town an incentive to lynch Wannabe claims. I was thinking maybe Mafia gets roleblocked the next night? But that may not be a good enough incentive. I'm struggling on this one.

If someone could help with this that would be great!
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Re: Wannabe (Neutral Evil)

Postby Spectre0 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:07 pm

SomeCatchyName9 wrote:
Spectre0 wrote:
Ah, that makes far more sense.

Any role that can heal evils is overpowered because in lots of situations town relies heavily on the kills from vig/jailor. Making a mafia doctor is a bad idea, especially since a doctor who has to be lynched by maf to win has no actual motivation to help mafia. Sure, he needs them to survive, but revealing his presence only puts a target on his back from mafia anyway. A lot of wannabes would essentially play as a weaker survivor.


Ohhhh I don't think the goal was clear enough, sorry!

Basically the Wannabe needs to be alive when Mafia win, but Mafia must kill the Wannabe, otherwjse they lose.

Honestly the main reason I like this role is its win condition. Apart from that even I can agree it needs some work.

Eg. If a Wannabe reveals, it will likely not be lynched by town as it isn't a threat to town, it's just a doctor.
Basically what I need to do is add something to this role that gives Town an incentive to lynch Wannabe claims. I was thinking maybe Mafia gets roleblocked the next night? But that may not be a good enough incentive. I'm struggling on this one.

If someone could help with this that would be great!



I do understand how it wins, and I absolutely LOVE the concept of a role that needs a faction which wants to kill it (It has to help them, but covertly). Still, I feel like this isn't the way to do it. It's an amazing concept, though
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Re: Wannabe (Neutral Evil)

Postby Crazyzombie168 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:32 pm

Yeah, roleblock anyone who visits the GF should work. But also, you should make it so it protects the Mafioso if there is no GF in-game (so it is not role dependent... kinda)

I like the concept of this role. I think mafia having a secret helper is neat. I think you should make it unable to whisper to the Mafioso/GF, so the mafia don't auto know a helper. Surely there can be a Spy, but it can still happen.
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Re: Wannabe (Neutral Evil)

Postby SomeCatchyName9 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:16 am

Spectre0 wrote:

I do understand how it wins, and I absolutely LOVE the concept of a role that needs a faction which wants to kill it (It has to help them, but covertly). Still, I feel like this isn't the way to do it. It's an amazing concept, though


Thanks! :)

Any ideas on how I could improve it?
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Re: Wannabe (Neutral Evil)

Postby SomeCatchyName9 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:22 am

Crazyzombie168 wrote:Yeah, roleblock anyone who visits the GF should work. But also, you should make it so it protects the Mafioso if there is no GF in-game (so it is not role dependent... kinda)

I like the concept of this role. I think mafia having a secret helper is neat. I think you should make it unable to whisper to the Mafioso/GF, so the mafia don't auto know a helper. Surely there can be a Spy, but it can still happen.

The roleblock thing would work but if there is no escort/consort in the game, it could give away the Mafia. But I think that's fine, because sheriffs give away the Mafia too :P and they could be accused of being an exe.
Also yes you're right, it should protect the Mafioso if there's no GF.

The whispering is fine, because the Wannabe won't whisper to the Mafia anyway. If the Wannabe reveals to the Mafia, the Mafia would try their best to get him lynched.

However I still need to add something that gives Town an incentive to lynch Wannabes without giving Mafia a huge nerf.


Also, is there a way to quote multiple messages in the same post?
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Re: Wannabe (Neutral Evil)

Postby BlazinIce » Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:42 am

This should be neutral benign
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Re: Wannabe (Neutral Evil)

Postby SomeCatchyName9 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:24 am

BlazinIce wrote:This should be neutral benign


Agreed. I'll change it now
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Re: Wannabe (Neutral Benign)

Postby SilenceHacker » Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:11 pm

No for a thousand reasons. We don't need a role dependent on the existence of another role. Secondly, This role isn't Benign if it can't choose sides. Thirdly.... It's.... just..... Bad.
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Re: Wannabe (Neutral Benign)

Postby twelvethousandants » Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:28 pm

This seems incredibly difficult to win as.
It's like an entire faction comprised of a single person.
This role looks like it needs another role (ergo, a townie) kingmaker to help it win - to choose the Wannabe over the mafia.

In every single situation I can think of, it involves the Town/NB/NE choosing to let the Wannabe win over the mafia.

I feel uncomfortable with it.

I also feel that if incentive was given to the Town to lynch the Wannabe, it would make the Wannabe win chance close to none, since the Town would then choose to lynch the Wannabe for whatever incentive it provides rather than letting the Wannabe win.
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Re: Wannabe (Neutral Benign)

Postby SomeCatchyName9 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:43 pm

SilenceHacker wrote:No for a thousand reasons. We don't need a role dependent on the existence of another role. Secondly, This role isn't Benign if it can't choose sides. Thirdly.... It's.... just..... Bad.


1. It doesn't matter what we need. I just like the concept of a role that needs to help the Mafia but also escape from the Mafia at the same time.

2. The alignment doesn't matter. If you can think of a more fitting alignment then go ahead, I'm listening.

3. Your post annoys me :( what kind of feedback is that?!

Look I know this role isn't perfect. But it seems to me like you just want to hate it. If you want to list every flaw with the role then go ahead, but if you aren't going to try and suggest an improvement then what's the point?
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Re: Wannabe (Neutral Benign)

Postby SomeCatchyName9 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:16 pm

twelvethousandants wrote:This seems incredibly difficult to win as.
It's like an entire faction comprised of a single person.
This role looks like it needs another role (ergo, a townie) kingmaker to help it win - to choose the Wannabe over the mafia.

In every single situation I can think of, it involves the Town/NB/NE choosing to let the Wannabe win over the mafia.

I feel uncomfortable with it.

I also feel that if incentive was given to the Town to lynch the Wannabe, it would make the Wannabe win chance close to none, since the Town would then choose to lynch the Wannabe for whatever incentive it provides rather than letting the Wannabe win.


This is my biggest concern too. Wow it's a tough one :lol:

For Wannabe to win:

Mafia must be alive
Mafia must not know identity of Wannabe.
Therefore Town must not know identity of Wannabe.
Therefore it must not be known at all that there is a Wannabe. In any way.

The first thing I can do is make it completely Investigator immune. So investigators and consigs can't find it. Perhaps the Wannabe could disguise as someone each night, to make it investigation immune.
Next, I think I need to remove its guard ability. I fear it would make the Wannabe's identity known too easily.
So I guess what I could do is remove the guard ability and replace it with the disguise.
To make the Wannabe's presence even more secret, I could put it into Neutral Chaos, so it will only be in games where there is an Any. This will also solve this ongoing alignment problem, as the Wannabe doesn't seem to fit any alignment currently.

In conclusion...

Rename Neutral Chaos to Neutral Secret, or Unknown, or something secretive like that.
Put the Wannabe into this new alignment
Change Wannabe guard ability to the Disguise ability.

Thoughts?
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Re: Wannabe (Neutral Benign)

Postby SomeCatchyName9 » Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:02 am

Anyone?
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Re: Wannabe (Neutral Benign)

Postby GodFocker » Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:44 am

SomeCatchyName9 wrote:
twelvethousandants wrote:This seems incredibly difficult to win as.
It's like an entire faction comprised of a single person.
This role looks like it needs another role (ergo, a townie) kingmaker to help it win - to choose the Wannabe over the mafia.

In every single situation I can think of, it involves the Town/NB/NE choosing to let the Wannabe win over the mafia.

I feel uncomfortable with it.

I also feel that if incentive was given to the Town to lynch the Wannabe, it would make the Wannabe win chance close to none, since the Town would then choose to lynch the Wannabe for whatever incentive it provides rather than letting the Wannabe win.


This is my biggest concern too. Wow it's a tough one :lol:

For Wannabe to win:

Mafia must be alive
Mafia must not know identity of Wannabe.
Therefore Town must not know identity of Wannabe.
Therefore it must not be known at all that there is a Wannabe. In any way.

The first thing I can do is make it completely Investigator immune. So investigators and consigs can't find it. Perhaps the Wannabe could disguise as someone each night, to make it investigation immune.
Next, I think I need to remove its guard ability. I fear it would make the Wannabe's identity known too easily.
So I guess what I could do is remove the guard ability and replace it with the disguise.
To make the Wannabe's presence even more secret, I could put it into Neutral Chaos, so it will only be in games where there is an Any. This will also solve this ongoing alignment problem, as the Wannabe doesn't seem to fit any alignment currently.

In conclusion...

Rename Neutral Chaos to Neutral Secret, or Unknown, or something secretive like that.
Put the Wannabe into this new alignment
Change Wannabe guard ability to the Disguise ability.

Thoughts?


That sounds a bit better!
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Re: Wannabe (Neutral Benign)

Postby SomeCatchyName9 » Fri Oct 28, 2016 9:42 am

GodFocker wrote:
That sounds a bit better!


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Re: Wannabe (Neutral Unknown)

Postby TheWolfBuddy » Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:57 am

Ahh a survivor that can only win with the mafia, can't vest, and the mafia have reason to murderkill?!

No thanks!!
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Re: Wannabe (Neutral Unknown)

Postby SomeCatchyName9 » Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:11 pm

TheWolfBuddy wrote:Ahh a survivor that can only win with the mafia, can't vest, and the mafia have reason to murderkill?!

No thanks!!

Hmm I don't think you read this role very well.

Firstly, the Wannabe cannot be killed by the Mafia. Constant Mafia immunity.
Secondly, it has a disguise ability.
Thirdly, it will be hard to know if this role is in the game, because of its alignment.

I do agree it's still UP though. Do you think I should give it full immunity?
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Re: Wannabe (Neutral Unknown) - 100+ Views!!

Postby BlazinIce » Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:48 pm

Huh neat
It's a made up role category
Neutral Chaos would be better for this, because it doesn't fit into anything else.
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Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:09 am
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