Ranked Rolelists

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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Ezradekezra » Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:36 pm

rakso98 wrote:Role list with Neutral Killing:

Jailor
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town protective
Town killing
Town support
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Coven leader
Random Coven
Random Coven
Godfather
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral killing
Jester (with no ELO lost if they die N1)

I'm pretty sure that the Town is supposed to start with the majority
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby DiamondRanger8 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:23 pm

Ezradekezra wrote:
rakso98 wrote:Role list with Neutral Killing:

Jailor
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town protective
Town killing
Town support
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Coven leader
Random Coven
Random Coven
Godfather
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral killing
Jester (with no ELO lost if they die N1)

I'm pretty sure that the Town is supposed to start with the majority



Lmao yeah it's bad
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby rakso98 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:06 am

Ezradekezra wrote:
rakso98 wrote:Role list with Neutral Killing:

Jailor
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town protective
Town killing
Town support
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Coven leader
Random Coven
Random Coven
Godfather
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral killing
Jester (with no ELO lost if they die N1)

I'm pretty sure that the Town is supposed to start with the majority


Nah nah, where did you hear that from? :D Clearly, you have been untouched by the heresy of the role lists in Coven All Any, where the graveyard shines in all colors of the rainbow.

My guess would be that even in this role list town would have about a 30-35% win rate or so (with mafia and Coven having about 30% each and NK having 5-10%, and jest maybe about 30%).

Well, maybe my role lists are too chaotic/swingy, but I think having an alternative ranked role list to the normal one would be good (where the meta wouldn't get old as quickly as it does in normal ranked). You can't have both unswinginess and a varied role list/meta. The two things don't mix, and every role list is a compromise between these two goals.

I'm not suggesting these (or something with similar goals) as a replacement for normal ranked anyway, but instead the Coven ranked that nobody plays.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby alex1234321 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:42 am

rakso98 wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:
rakso98 wrote:Role list with Neutral Killing:

Jailor
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town protective
Town killing
Town support
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Coven leader
Random Coven
Random Coven
Godfather
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral killing
Jester (with no ELO lost if they die N1)

I'm pretty sure that the Town is supposed to start with the majority


Nah nah, where did you hear that from? :D Clearly, you have been untouched by the heresy of the role lists in Coven All Any, where the graveyard shines in all colors of the rainbow.

My guess would be that even in this role list town would have about a 30-35% win rate or so (with mafia and Coven having about 30% each and NK having 5-10%, and jest maybe about 30%).

Well, maybe my role lists are too chaotic/swingy, but I think having an alternative ranked role list to the normal one would be good (where the meta wouldn't get old as quickly as it does in normal ranked). You can't have both unswinginess and a varied role list/meta. The two things don't mix, and every role list is a compromise between these two goals.

I'm not suggesting these (or something with similar goals) as a replacement for normal ranked anyway, but instead the Coven ranked that nobody plays.


The game is uninformed majority vs informed minority. The biggest issue with the current Classic Ranked rolelist is that the game is effectively over by D3. Either scum is lynched and the Town can easily catch and kill the remaining scum based on voting behavior and TI results, or Town is lynched and scum quickly gains majority. I prefer 10 Town rolelists since either team can usually win if they make a mistake. The problem is that Town has roles that can singlehandedly swing the outcome of the game and Mafia wastes two slots for killing when it only needs one. With Jailor and Mayor removed from Ranked and TMK implemented, you would have a rolelist with somewhat fair winrates and less meta potential due to there being fewer confirmed Town members. If you want to make it more exciting while still maintaining balance, throw and NK in there.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby DiamondRanger8 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:29 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
rakso98 wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:
rakso98 wrote:Role list with Neutral Killing:

Jailor
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town protective
Town killing
Town support
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Coven leader
Random Coven
Random Coven
Godfather
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral killing
Jester (with no ELO lost if they die N1)

I'm pretty sure that the Town is supposed to start with the majority


Nah nah, where did you hear that from? :D Clearly, you have been untouched by the heresy of the role lists in Coven All Any, where the graveyard shines in all colors of the rainbow.

My guess would be that even in this role list town would have about a 30-35% win rate or so (with mafia and Coven having about 30% each and NK having 5-10%, and jest maybe about 30%).

Well, maybe my role lists are too chaotic/swingy, but I think having an alternative ranked role list to the normal one would be good (where the meta wouldn't get old as quickly as it does in normal ranked). You can't have both unswinginess and a varied role list/meta. The two things don't mix, and every role list is a compromise between these two goals.

I'm not suggesting these (or something with similar goals) as a replacement for normal ranked anyway, but instead the Coven ranked that nobody plays.


The game is uninformed majority vs informed minority. The biggest issue with the current Classic Ranked rolelist is that the game is effectively over by D3. Either scum is lynched and the Town can easily catch and kill the remaining scum based on voting behavior and TI results, or Town is lynched and scum quickly gains majority. I prefer 10 Town rolelists since either team can usually win if they make a mistake. The problem is that Town has roles that can singlehandedly swing the outcome of the game and Mafia wastes two slots for killing when it only needs one. With Jailor and Mayor removed from Ranked and TMK implemented, you would have a rolelist with somewhat fair winrates and less meta potential due to there being fewer confirmed Town members. If you want to make it more exciting while still maintaining balance, throw and NK in there.



Another solution is to add a confirmed Mayor over Jailor, and blacklist Jailor from ranked.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby superboytim » Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:47 am

rakso98 wrote:A lot of people like the "un-swinginess" of the current ranked role list, but I think there are people who also wouldn't mind something that is a bit more fast paced, variable and chaotic/swingy to replace the Coven ranked (especially fans of Coven all any). That way playing the two different ranked game-modes would feel quite different and people could play the one they like.

I have two suggestions for possible role lists:

Role list without Neutral Killing:

Jailor
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town protective
Town support
Town killing
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Coven leader
Random Coven
Random Coven
Godfather
Random mafia
Random mafia
Executioner

Role list with Neutral Killing:

Jailor
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town protective
Town killing
Town support
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Coven leader
Random Coven
Random Coven
Godfather
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral killing
Jester (with no ELO lost if they die N1)

an open role madness multiball

nothing can go wrong here

also im like 99% sure no one plays coven ranked ever
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby alex1234321 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:14 am

DiamondRanger8 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:
rakso98 wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:
rakso98 wrote:Role list with Neutral Killing:

Jailor
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town protective
Town killing
Town support
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Coven leader
Random Coven
Random Coven
Godfather
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral killing
Jester (with no ELO lost if they die N1)

I'm pretty sure that the Town is supposed to start with the majority


Nah nah, where did you hear that from? :D Clearly, you have been untouched by the heresy of the role lists in Coven All Any, where the graveyard shines in all colors of the rainbow.

My guess would be that even in this role list town would have about a 30-35% win rate or so (with mafia and Coven having about 30% each and NK having 5-10%, and jest maybe about 30%).

Well, maybe my role lists are too chaotic/swingy, but I think having an alternative ranked role list to the normal one would be good (where the meta wouldn't get old as quickly as it does in normal ranked). You can't have both unswinginess and a varied role list/meta. The two things don't mix, and every role list is a compromise between these two goals.

I'm not suggesting these (or something with similar goals) as a replacement for normal ranked anyway, but instead the Coven ranked that nobody plays.


The game is uninformed majority vs informed minority. The biggest issue with the current Classic Ranked rolelist is that the game is effectively over by D3. Either scum is lynched and the Town can easily catch and kill the remaining scum based on voting behavior and TI results, or Town is lynched and scum quickly gains majority. I prefer 10 Town rolelists since either team can usually win if they make a mistake. The problem is that Town has roles that can singlehandedly swing the outcome of the game and Mafia wastes two slots for killing when it only needs one. With Jailor and Mayor removed from Ranked and TMK implemented, you would have a rolelist with somewhat fair winrates and less meta potential due to there being fewer confirmed Town members. If you want to make it more exciting while still maintaining balance, throw and NK in there.



Another solution is to add a confirmed Mayor over Jailor, and blacklist Jailor from ranked.


Why would we want Mayor in Ranked? It should be blacklisted too. Any role that can self-confirm is bad for the game and especially bad for competitive play. Confirmed players are able to lead the Town with nobody doubting their allegiance, which allows them to have a much larger influence on the game than other Town members.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby rakso98 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:09 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
The game is uninformed majority vs informed minority. The biggest issue with the current Classic Ranked rolelist is that the game is effectively over by D3. Either scum is lynched and the Town can easily catch and kill the remaining scum based on voting behavior and TI results, or Town is lynched and scum quickly gains majority. I prefer 10 Town rolelists since either team can usually win if they make a mistake. The problem is that Town has roles that can singlehandedly swing the outcome of the game and Mafia wastes two slots for killing when it only needs one. With Jailor and Mayor removed from Ranked and TMK implemented, you would have a rolelist with somewhat fair winrates and less meta potential due to there being fewer confirmed Town members. If you want to make it more exciting while still maintaining balance, throw and NK in there.


Good points. I agree with most of what you said. How easy would it be to balance with an NK? The previous role list with an NK was pretty unbalanced apparently, though maybe with the other changes that you are suggesting, it could work better. Maybe instead of blacklisting jailor, some jailor nerf could be implemented and the jailor slot could be changed to RT or TK.
superboytim wrote:
nothing can go wrong here


Even I'm not brave enough to suggest that, though I'm the one who suggested the role list :P
superboytim wrote:also im like 99% sure no one plays coven ranked ever


Yes, and I think one of the reasons is because the role list is too similar to normal ranked, so there is no demand for it. (on the other hand, if no one ever plays it. how bad could it be to run an experiment like this? :D)
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby dolphina » Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:08 pm

why is this getting activity again
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby gergthegog » Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:06 pm

Can we PLEASE get ANY and NK back in ranked. It's the only serious gamemode left and it's boring as hell without ANY or the random NE/NK
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:19 pm

Any made the mode extremely unbalanced, it could cause vampire to spawn in rank which is bad for many reasons

Same with NK
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Ezradekezra » Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:36 pm

gergthegog wrote:Can we PLEASE get ANY and NK back in ranked. It's the only serious gamemode left and it's boring as hell without ANY or the random NE/NK

do i need to revive my petition from a year ago
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:06 pm

Ezradekezra wrote:
gergthegog wrote:Can we PLEASE get ANY and NK back in ranked. It's the only serious gamemode left and it's boring as hell without ANY or the random NE/NK

do i need to revive my petition from a year ago


What was it?
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Ezradekezra » Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:03 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:
gergthegog wrote:Can we PLEASE get ANY and NK back in ranked. It's the only serious gamemode left and it's boring as hell without ANY or the random NE/NK

do i need to revive my petition from a year ago

What was it?

https://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=114443
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby wozearly » Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:47 pm

Ezradekezra wrote:
gergthegog wrote:Can we PLEASE get ANY and NK back in ranked. It's the only serious gamemode left and it's boring as hell without ANY or the random NE/NK

do i need to revive my petition from a year ago


Ah yes, the petition asking those requesting the return of NK for gameplay over balance reasons to jump wholesale into a full random mode. Because yes, that's exactly the problem we were highlighting (sigh).

The concerns most of us had was that the technical balancers argument was moving inevitably towards making Ranked a straight Town vs Mafia plus allied not-quite-Mafia-but-might-as-well-be NE. Fine on paper, but with the current imbalance between Maf and Town roles, the risk was that games would have a quite a high level of predictability and tend to veer sharply in favour of one side or the other by D2/3 with only Town having any viable options to recover from the losing streak if they happened to have the right roles in play (typically Escort or Transporter). In short, games would get dull and repetitive quickly. The inevitable answer would be MOAR TECHNICAL BALANCE, leading inevitably to a brick wall at which most of the existing roles would need to be completely rewritten and/or banned from Ranked, again increasing balance at the risk of even greater repetition.

Ranked has already gone far enough down that path that most of us arguing against it have conceded that the argument, for better or worse, has been lost. The request since then has really been more about having an additional game-mode added which is a hybrid of the Legacy Ranked list (with NB, NK and Any) and the balance learnings from the greater number of RTs present in more recent Ranked lists. It wouldn't have ELO, so concerns about "aarrrrgh, vampires..." would no longer apply, and would be capable of fielding the full set of roles to minimise repetitive games and outcomes. It'd likely be slightly town-sided, as Legacy Ranked was, but with a clearer starting point of balance than All Any (which, fun though it is, is something else entirely). And yes, kingmakers would be a thing from time to time. And on the plus side, anything which helped deal with the Ranked meta-strategies would also benefit this secondary mode.

But no, no...so insidious and horrifying was our perspective that we deserved only to be outcast, isn't that right Ezra? 8-)
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon Jan 31, 2022 7:43 pm

I believe that ranked is currently worse off then it used to be despite NK being poorly designed for ranked.

6v9 doesn't really work like I used to think (Unless every game had a confirmed mayor but that would just lead to less space and more swing if mayor died early just like Jailor).
5V10 works much better problem is towns power level and roles are too strong for 5v10 to even be entertained.

I think the problem is still confirmation being really easy to come by in Tos, epically with roles such as lookout with no real check (current disguiser doesn't really even fix that).Also the Absurd power of roles such as Jailor, Transporter. The issues with the current "Mafioso" system of mafia instead of tactical, The current issue with poorly, very poorly designed roles such as Spy.

I could rant all day why ranked will never be balanced with how some current town and mafia roles work all day, I think Nk is just a check that kinda screws one side more then the other normally the false Idea of balance that NK brings. Roles like Exe/Jester have no place either in ranked, NE needs more Varity I dislike witch interactions with Vigi being so devastating currently.

Not to mention sometimes mafia just decides to have 2KPN with Ambusher (Obviously this role has drawbacks but used by a good player it's really broken).
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:37 am

Nerf Jailor, reduce town confirmability, rework Spy and Retributionist, buff Random Mafia, remove Witch and Executioner as confirmed roles, simple. SC2Mafia is a better game, take some inspiration for all the new roles and updates that they have implemented. Town of Salem is a fucking mess.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:17 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:Nerf Jailor, reduce town confirmability, rework Spy and Retributionist, buff Random Mafia, remove Witch and Executioner as confirmed roles, simple. SC2Mafia is a better game, take some inspiration for all the new roles and updates that they have implemented. Town of Salem is a fucking mess.


Current state of the game is somewhat messy, Personally i find it baffling the way most role lists in the game are designed.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby EqsyLootz » Tue Feb 15, 2022 8:35 pm

Hagg1s wrote:Give jester a gun and make him immune


why a gun though.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Feb 16, 2022 3:29 am

Give jester and exe a remove from ranked.

All Neutral evils aka the only one witch, should be immune to scum attacks, Including Douses. While they should die to normal Town Kills. That and add more actual Neutral evils.

Jester/Exe and all other roles such as Nk, NB should be allowed to spawn in a more casual mode that actually has claim space and is fun or just allow ranked to have more chaos aspects which makes it more fun to sacrifice balance.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Feb 16, 2022 3:36 am

Soulshade55r wrote:Give jester and exe a remove from ranked.

All Neutral evils aka the only one witch, should be immune to scum attacks, Including Douses. While they should die to normal Town Kills. That and add more actual Neutral evils.

Jester/Exe and all other roles such as Nk, NB should be allowed to spawn in a more casual mode that actually has claim space and is fun or just allow ranked to have more chaos aspects which makes it more fun to sacrifice balance.


Agreed. Jester and Executioner are more Neutral Benign roles. I don't mind a Random Neutral Benign in a set-up that is balanced for it though and roles like Survivor/Amnesiac, open up claim space for evils.

Add Auditor as a Neutral Evil role. People need to get over the vanillizer hate. If people are committed to a game, then they will be fine with conversion to Citizen, better than dying.

Vigilante should be able to kill all Neutral Evils, period. Executioner or any NB role (expect survivor) shouldn't have any sort of defense, you die N1, tough luck, suck it up and join a new game.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Feb 16, 2022 6:11 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:Give jester and exe a remove from ranked.

All Neutral evils aka the only one witch, should be immune to scum attacks, Including Douses. While they should die to normal Town Kills. That and add more actual Neutral evils.

Jester/Exe and all other roles such as Nk, NB should be allowed to spawn in a more casual mode that actually has claim space and is fun or just allow ranked to have more chaos aspects which makes it more fun to sacrifice balance.


Agreed. Jester and Executioner are more Neutral Benign roles. I don't mind a Random Neutral Benign in a set-up that is balanced for it though and roles like Survivor/Amnesiac, open up claim space for evils.

Add Auditor as a Neutral Evil role. People need to get over the vanillizer hate. If people are committed to a game, then they will be fine with conversion to Citizen, better than dying.


Vigilante should be able to kill all Neutral Evils, period. Executioner or any NB role (expect survivor) shouldn't have any sort of defense, you die N1, tough luck, suck it up and join a new game.

Survivor shouldn't have 4 vests personally it's too much 2 or 3. Vigi Should be able to kill all roles that aren't nk/Nc and godfather. (Survivor having Vests to prevent attacks is good).

I disagree, a NE like that sounds really boring for both the target and the player, converting players to citizen might be a workable mechanic but i don't think it's healthy same as why I think medium is a bad role because forced dead interaction is really dull for the dead players, you can have a balanced game without awfully boring roles. Making changes/roles that no one wants for the sake of balance can be bad.

I rather more interesting have more interesting Neutral evils in the game. Keeping them strong.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby DiamondRanger8 » Wed Mar 09, 2022 2:56 pm

At least in Coven Guardian Angel should be in the list since they just like didn't bother to update Coven last season.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:15 pm

No because Ga is super bad for balanced modes
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby WaveAqualei » Fri Apr 22, 2022 1:08 am

I didn't realize I could post on this, so I might as well give this a go:

Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Killing
Town Killing
Town Protective
Town Support
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Neutral Evil
Neutral Killing


I like this rolelist better because it makes Jailor have a higher chance to spawn without there being a confirmed Jailor. Since Jailor meta is very unfun to play against I think this might help.
Last edited by WaveAqualei on Fri Apr 22, 2022 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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