Arsonist Overhaul (Open-Discussion)

[BasicFourLife]

This is my take on buffing the Arsonist. It has the lowest winrate in the game around 1%. It clearly needs some sort of buff(s).

Thank you for help
- GoogleFeud, Joacgroso, Mystoc

Name: Arsonist
Alignment: Neutral Killing

Abilities
- You may douse one or multiple in gasoline each night.
- You may sacrifice one of your douse charges, to ignite all doused targets by selecting yourself at night.
- Start with one douse charge and gain one more each night.

Attributes
- Your douses are silent.
- You can store up to three douse charges at once.
- If your doused target(s) are killed at night, you will gain an additional douse charge for each doused target killed at night.

Special Attributes
- Attack: Unstoppable
- Defense: Basic
- Bite immunity.
- Detection immunity until the first ignition.
- Douse immunity against Arsonists.

Additional Information
Spoiler: You start with one douse and gain an additional one N1 having the possibility to douse two people N1.
Gaining douse charges is a passive ability which takes effect at the beginning of the night as it cannot be stopped in any way by role blockers.
Your douses are silent, but they do not frame people as an Arsonist.
You are douse Immune which makes you completely immune to any douses by an Arsonist, but not from Firebrand's douses however.
The first time you ignite, you will lose your detection immunity and be detectable by the Sheriff the next nights.
Night Messages
Spoiler: "You have decided to douse Joacgroso and Mystoc tonight"
"You have <Number> douse(s) left."
"You have decided to ignite all of your doused targets."
"Someone tried to douse you, but you are immune."
If you'd like to use any of my ideas. Please at least mention me.
Thanks for the support everyone.

[Shilster]

Still doesn't fix Arso's problem tbh.

How about it being able to douse every 2 nights, but it can douse twice?

[BasicFourLife]

Still doesn't fix Arso's problem tbh.

How about it being able to douse every 2 nights, but it can douse twice?

What do you mean by "Being able to douse every 2 nights, " it is written in the thread that it can douse up to 3 players in one night.

[OllyRenard]

Does the Arsonist gain a charge the night they ignite?

[BasicFourLife]

Does the Arsonist gain a charge the night they ignite?

Yes read the thread, it does in the current game also, by charge I mean they can douse the next night.

Any feedback would be appreciated. If someone could tell me what's wrong I could fix it. Just leave any thoughts down below

Should the maximum of amount of douses be 2, because 3 kinda seems too much. Dousing 3 people at the end and the igniting all of them hm

[OllyRenard]

Does the Arsonist gain a charge the night they ignite?

Yes read the thread, it does in the current game also, by charge I mean they can douse the next night.

I didn't see that answered in the OP. Thank you for your answer.

Should the maximum of amount of douses be 2, because 3 kinda seems too much. Dousing 3 people at the end and the igniting all of them hm

I think 3 is still good maximum, without me doing any math, because they have to sacrifice three nights of doing nothing to do it

[BasicFourLife]

Thanks for the feedback. Please vote the first or the second option if you like this idea.

Should the maximum of amount of douses be 2, because 3 kinda seems too much. Dousing 3 people at the end and the igniting all of them hm

I think 3 is still good maximum, without me doing any math, because they have to sacrifice three nights of doing nothing to do it

Actually 2 nights, they would have gained the third douse on the third night. So on the third night they could douse 3 people, so 2 nights not doing anything. I clarified that you would get it AT THE BEGINNING of a night, because I kinda left it unclear.

[OllyRenard]

Should the maximum of amount of douses be 2, because 3 kinda seems too much. Dousing 3 people at the end and the igniting all of them hm

I think 3 is still good maximum, without me doing any math, because they have to sacrifice three nights of doing nothing to do it

Actually 2 nights, they would have gained the third douse on the third night. So on the third night they could douse 3 people, so 2 nights not doing anything. I clarified that you would get it AT THE BEGINNING of a night, because I kinda left it unclear.

n1 one charge
n2 two charge
n3 three charge plus dousing three
n4 ignite

So the tempo/kill time of Arsonist remains the same, but your idea lowers the risk of Arsonist's targets being killed before they are ignited which I think is a good thing

[Joacgroso]

If this were implemented (what doesn't sound bad), I think the other arso buffs should be reverted. Arsos shouldn't be detection immune anymore and they shouldn't frame their targets. Maybe, instead of limiting the douses, they could give notifications again, so if arsos try to douse too many people in one night, they risk being exposed then. The main problem are bodyguards and trackers. Also, what would happen if there are 2 arsonists? Would they know every doused players, or only players who they doused? And what if an arso douses another arso and he cleans the gas off himself? Would he know his target is not doused anymore?

[TigerWolf85]

If this were implemented (what doesn't sound bad), I think the other arso buffs should be reverted. Arsos shouldn't be detection immune anymore and they shouldn't frame their targets. Maybe, instead of limiting the douses, they could give notifications again, so if arsos try to douse too many people in one night, they risk being exposed then. The main problem are bodyguards and trackers. Also, what would happen if there are 2 arsonists? Would they know every doused players, or only players who they doused? And what if an arso douses another arso and he cleans the gas off himself? Would he know his target is not doused anymore?

I say no to the notification. Especially with the multiple visits per night. There is a very good reason they took that off the 1st time. That would just make the role unplayable in a different way than it is now. I don't however have a problem with taking the role framing off. Although i might replace it with allowing sheriff to detect doused people regardless of role alignment in addition to his maf/sk/ww detection abilities (kind of makes sense from a logistical standpoint anyway).

I like this idea. clearly something needs to be done seeing as how most Arsos don't even try at this point. Support

[Shilster]

Completely unrelated to the topic, 49 edits in a day?

[Jackparrot]

Shouldnt this be in role ideas?

[GoogleFeud]

Shouldnt this be in role ideas?

... Report the post instead of just saying it

[BasicFourLife]

Shouldnt this be in role ideas?

... Report the post instead of just saying it

Reworks have to be posted in Role Ideas?

[GoogleFeud]

Shouldnt this be in role ideas?

... Report the post instead of just saying it

Reworks have to be posted in Role Ideas?

Uh yes. It's a role idea after all, right?

[Erired1110]

This is good, the only thing here is that arsonist buff is a bit too similar to Juggernaut, the only difference being that it waits to kill instead of the Jugg and it doesn't gain any new defenses.

Besides that though, I agree with this change completely. It makes the Arsonist role a lot more fun.

[Seththeking]

/Nosupport Arsonist is fine the way it is

I mostly always win as Arsonist unless I second guess my self and decide not to Ignite.
Because Then I Lose....

[Joacgroso]

/Nosupport Arsonist is fine the way it is

I mostly always win as Arsonist unless I second guess my self and decide not to Ignite.
Because Then I Lose....

Do you mean in ranked, or in all any?

[Blayzeatron]

It seems like the only thing you have changed is the ability to store douses to make it more likely doused targets don't die. This means that it just seems a straight buff (which I know was the point) and keep it at a storage of 2 for now. If it doesn't help enough then it can be changed again. The main problem with arso is that saving the ignite until the stage where you can win is the only play. More people left alive means that town is less likely to force role call, mafia is less likely to attack you, there is more claim space, less urgency amongst town to find evils. When arso plays like this, and then dies, mafia has to kill everyone themselves. This is the why town gets the free wins.

[Joacgroso]

It seems like the only thing you have changed is the ability to store douses to make it more likely doused targets don't die. This means that it just seems a straight buff (which I know was the point) and keep it at a storage of 2 for now. If it doesn't help enough then it can be changed again. The main problem with arso is that saving the ignite until the stage where you can win is the only play. More people left alive means that town is less likely to force role call, mafia is less likely to attack you, there is more claim space, less urgency amongst town to find evils. When arso plays like this, and then dies, mafia has to kill everyone themselves. This is the why town gets the free wins.

I wouldn't call them "free wins", but that's a good point.

[Seththeking]

/Nosupport Arsonist is fine the way it is

I mostly always win as Arsonist unless I second guess my self and decide not to Ignite.
Because Then I Lose....

Do you mean in ranked, or in all any?

Ranked

[Joacgroso]

/Nosupport Arsonist is fine the way it is

I mostly always win as Arsonist unless I second guess my self and decide not to Ignite.
Because Then I Lose....

Do you mean in ranked, or in all any?

Ranked

Then you should write a guide in strat disscusions for players who don't know how to play arso (me included). What do you do in order to always win? Or is it because town is full of idiots?

[lemonader666]

Spoiler: This may seem like an arso buff at first, but it's actually an optional nerf. More people dying early helps scum alot more than less, town will have alot more info to work with.

Still doesn't fix Arso's problem tbh.

How about it being able to douse every 2 nights, but it can douse twice?

And what's the problem?

This is good, the only thing here is that arsonist buff is a bit too similar to Juggernaut, the only difference being that it waits to kill instead of the Jugg and it doesn't gain any new defenses.

Besides that though, I agree with this change completely. It makes the Arsonist role a lot more fun.

This arsonist rework - Gets 1 more douse charge passively
Juggernaut - Gets better defense/attacks after every kill
What

/Nosupport Arsonist is fine the way it is

I mostly always win as Arsonist unless I second guess my self and decide not to Ignite.
Because Then I Lose....

[K1llthestory]

bad.

[lemonader666]

bad.

may you elaborate?