Is this gamethrowing?

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Is this gamethrowing?

Postby Mathelete » Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:04 am

Scenario: Escort vs vamp

Escort can draw the game if they rb, or they can win with vamps

If they win with vamps, are they gamethrowing by betraying their faction? Or would you say that roleblocking and drawing the game would be a gamethrow?
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Re: Is this gamethrowing?

Postby chillyz123 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:08 am

Honestly, if the escort can win and they purposely draw it's an unneeded outcome and it would be less understandable than just becoming the vampire.
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Re: Is this gamethrowing?

Postby TGambitG » Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:31 am

Mathelete wrote:Scenario: Escort vs vamp

Escort can draw the game if they rb, or they can win with vamps

If they win with vamps, are they gamethrowing by betraying their faction? Or would you say that roleblocking and drawing the game would be a gamethrow?


It technically *IS* gamethrowing, as the definition of gamethrowing is intentionally reducing chances for your TEAM to win. Not yourself. Now it would be different had he ALREADY been bitten, but as he had not, he gamthrew for the town in favor of the vamps (regardless of him securing himself the win)

The whole Team thing is why Executioners and Jesters can side with whoever they want, and why NKs can kingmake when they have no chance of winning the game. However, those who are on a solo team (like NKs, Jesters, Executioners) can still gamethrow if they DO still have a chance at winning and do something that removes that chance.
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Re: Is this gamethrowing?

Postby LevinSnakesRise » Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:11 am

As Gambit said. The Escort would have to roleblock until the game ended in a tie, or it's considered gamethrowing.
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Re: Is this gamethrowing?

Postby Mathelete » Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:56 pm

Okay, thanks for the confirmation. I can totally see why vamp was removed from ranked. Cause admit it, if you were the escort and it was a ranked game, you’d prefer to win instead of draw (from what I heard a draw still loses ELO)
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Re: Is this gamethrowing?

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:08 pm

I have never won/lost elo in a draw. It's always +0 (maybe not in masters, where they gain way less elo and lose more).
I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Is this gamethrowing?

Postby Shilster » Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:15 pm

Well, the Escort technically cannot win (as Town), so the next best option is to draw for Town.
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Re: Is this gamethrowing?

Postby Mathelete » Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:24 pm

Joacgroso wrote:I have never won/lost elo in a draw. It's always +0 (maybe not in masters, where they gain way less elo and lose more).


Ah, I see. I think a more extreme situation would be if you were Mayor, and there was a ret and two vamps, and it was day, but you knew you would be bitten in the night. In that scenario, you either lose the game or gamethrow and win. I would have considered that to be an example of justifiable gamethrowing, as I would have no wanted to lose ELO, and tried to maximize my ELO. But we don't have to worry about that anymore.

The whole idea of vamps only fits in a game that people don't take seriously (such as All Any), so either you won't mind losing the game, or you will technically gamethrow to win but nobody will get mad and you most likely won't be reported.

I will admit back when I was new to the game I once unknowingly gamethrew as escort because I really wanted to win, so I let the vamp bite me instead of making the game draw. But it was All Any, and it was back in the middle of March. No harm, no foul, and nobody got mad.
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Re: Is this gamethrowing?

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Dec 25, 2017 8:15 pm

Mathelete wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:I have never won/lost elo in a draw. It's always +0 (maybe not in masters, where they gain way less elo and lose more).


Ah, I see. I think a more extreme situation would be if you were Mayor, and there was a ret and two vamps, and it was day, but you knew you would be bitten in the night. In that scenario, you either lose the game or gamethrow and win. I would have considered that to be an example of justifiable gamethrowing, as I would have no wanted to lose ELO, and tried to maximize my ELO. But we don't have to worry about that anymore.

The whole idea of vamps only fits in a game that people don't take seriously (such as All Any), so either you won't mind losing the game, or you will technically gamethrow to win but nobody will get mad and you most likely won't be reported.

I will admit back when I was new to the game I once unknowingly gamethrew as escort because I really wanted to win, so I let the vamp bite me instead of making the game draw. But it was All Any, and it was back in the middle of March. No harm, no foul, and nobody got mad.

Exactly. It may be against the rules, but no one will report it.
I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Is this gamethrowing?

Postby Unorthodox1337 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:33 pm

If you are the escort, win with the vampires.
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Re: Is this gamethrowing?

Postby Cirque » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:00 pm

Unorthodox1337 wrote:If you are the escort, win with the vampires.

But that is gamethrowing.
This is why I hate Vampire. It's a win stealer and if you are in this situation you have to force a tie and you don't get a win because it would be gamethrowing if you went with the Vampires. sigh
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Re: Is this gamethrowing?

Postby Mathelete » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:44 am

Honestly I wouldn’t mind a draw. The worst is when you have to lose instead of win in order to avoid gamethrowing. Most players would choose the winning path, and they’re not likely to be reported cause vamp games aren’t taken seriously. Almost every vamp game has the unturned townies wanting to be bitten because that’s the easy road to victory.
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Re: Is this gamethrowing?

Postby N2Power » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:51 pm

If this is gamethrowing, the game should auto-resolve in favor of the vampires. Same if its a Transporter vs Vamp or Jailor with no executions vs Vamp situation.
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Re: Is this gamethrowing?

Postby Mathelete » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:16 pm

Cirque wrote:
Unorthodox1337 wrote:If you are the escort, win with the vampires.

But that is gamethrowing.
This is why I hate Vampire. It's a win stealer and if you are in this situation you have to force a tie and you don't get a win because it would be gamethrowing if you went with the Vampires. sigh


I wouldn't worry about it much. Draw isn't so bad, it's better than a loss.

And if you have to choose between a win and a loss (the example with mayor, Vamp Hunter, and two vamps), go for the win. Most likely you will not be reported, as I would consider that to be justifiable gamethrowing.
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Re: Is this gamethrowing?

Postby Cirque » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:41 pm

Mathelete wrote:
Cirque wrote:
Unorthodox1337 wrote:If you are the escort, win with the vampires.

But that is gamethrowing.
This is why I hate Vampire. It's a win stealer and if you are in this situation you have to force a tie and you don't get a win because it would be gamethrowing if you went with the Vampires. sigh


I wouldn't worry about it much. Draw isn't so bad, it's better than a loss.

And if you have to choose between a win and a loss (the example with mayor, Vamp Hunter, and two vamps), go for the win. Most likely you will not be reported, as I would consider that to be justifiable gamethrowing.

Yes, but it still steals wins.
For example, I was Medium in All Any and I was about to win. But the last Vampire just HAD to bite me and die the same night, so I resulted in a loss. I hate Vampire.
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Re: Is this gamethrowing?

Postby Shilster » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:58 pm

Cirque wrote:
Mathelete wrote:
Cirque wrote:
Unorthodox1337 wrote:If you are the escort, win with the vampires.

But that is gamethrowing.
This is why I hate Vampire. It's a win stealer and if you are in this situation you have to force a tie and you don't get a win because it would be gamethrowing if you went with the Vampires. sigh


I wouldn't worry about it much. Draw isn't so bad, it's better than a loss.

And if you have to choose between a win and a loss (the example with mayor, Vamp Hunter, and two vamps), go for the win. Most likely you will not be reported, as I would consider that to be justifiable gamethrowing.

Yes, but it still steals wins.
For example, I was Medium in All Any and I was about to win. But the last Vampire just HAD to bite me and die the same night, so I resulted in a loss. I hate Vampire.

But if they didn't bite they would be gamethrowing.
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Re: Is this gamethrowing?

Postby Wirewolf » Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:50 am

Cirque wrote:
Mathelete wrote:
Cirque wrote:
Unorthodox1337 wrote:If you are the escort, win with the vampires.

But that is gamethrowing.
This is why I hate Vampire. It's a win stealer and if you are in this situation you have to force a tie and you don't get a win because it would be gamethrowing if you went with the Vampires. sigh


I wouldn't worry about it much. Draw isn't so bad, it's better than a loss.

And if you have to choose between a win and a loss (the example with mayor, Vamp Hunter, and two vamps), go for the win. Most likely you will not be reported, as I would consider that to be justifiable gamethrowing.

Yes, but it still steals wins.
For example, I was Medium in All Any and I was about to win. But the last Vampire just HAD to bite me and die the same night, so I resulted in a loss. I hate Vampire.

Let's not forget times like when I carried Town as an Investigator, only for the one Vampire to bite the other Townie (who'd done absolutely nothing all game) and then they decided to lynch me. I get that it weakens Town (which was needed) but it does it in a really terrible fashion. Most of the Townies that would usually deserve the win have been killed before the end (you know, because they were actually threats to the evils) so usually the Townies that end up getting bitten at the end tend to (not always, but a lot of the time) be the worse members of the Town.
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Re: Is this gamethrowing?

Postby DragonClaw66 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:36 am

Shilster wrote:Well, the Escort technically cannot win (as Town), so the next best option is to draw for Town.

Gamethrowing is doing something that reduces your team's chances of winning intentionally. In an Escort vs Vampire situation, the chances of winning are 0%. You cannot kill the Vampire. So if you let the Vampire bite you, you didn't gamethrow because the chance of winning was already impossible. You can't decrease 0%. I see nothing wrong with letting the Vampire bite you because of this.
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Re: Is this gamethrowing?

Postby Shilster » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:39 am

DragonClaw66 wrote:
Shilster wrote:Well, the Escort technically cannot win (as Town), so the next best option is to draw for Town.

Gamethrowing is doing something that reduces your team's chances of winning intentionally. In an Escort vs Vampire situation, the chances of winning are 0%. You cannot kill the Vampire. So if you let the Vampire bite you, you didn't gamethrow because the chance of winning was already impossible. You can't decrease 0%. I see nothing wrong with letting the Vampire bite you because of this.

Town draw > Town loss. If you are bitten then Town loses. You started as Town, your goal is to kill all scum.

But most people would pass this off as normal behaviour.
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Re: Is this gamethrowing?

Postby pickmeup » Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:20 pm

definitely gamethrow
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Re: Is this gamethrowing?

Postby Mathelete » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:22 pm

DragonClaw66 wrote:
Shilster wrote:Well, the Escort technically cannot win (as Town), so the next best option is to draw for Town.

Gamethrowing is doing something that reduces your team's chances of winning intentionally. In an Escort vs Vampire situation, the chances of winning are 0%. You cannot kill the Vampire. So if you let the Vampire bite you, you didn't gamethrow because the chance of winning was already impossible. You can't decrease 0%. I see nothing wrong with letting the Vampire bite you because of this.


I think it also covers a situation where you decrease the chances of drawing in a no-win situation. But as the person after you said, people pass this off as normal behavior. People usually think about their own win instead of their teammates/former teammates.
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Re: Is this gamethrowing?

Postby Joacgroso » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:25 pm

ToS is a game of backstabbing after all... I doubt town would report the escort honestly.
I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Is this gamethrowing?

Postby Mathelete » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:13 am

Joacgroso wrote:ToS is a game of backstabbing after all... I doubt town would report the escort honestly.

Exactly this. Just like how a survivor would backstab town.
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Re: Is this gamethrowing?

Postby Shilster » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:46 am

Joacgroso wrote:ToS is a game of backstabbing after all... I doubt town would report the escort honestly.

So instead of getting a draw, the Town members lost because Escort decided to join Vamps.
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Re: Is this gamethrowing?

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:48 am

Shilster wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:ToS is a game of backstabbing after all... I doubt town would report the escort honestly.

So instead of getting a draw, the Town members lost because Escort decided to join Vamps.

Yes they did. But they won't take it so seriously. It's a vamp game after all.
I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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