Why does arso auto win?

[Yoyoball]

I had a game where I was escort, it was at the end with a pest, arso, and me.

We vote out the pest and the arso auto wins? it should be atleast a draw since arso literally can't ignite as long as I am escort.

This makes no sense to me.

[Ezradekezra]

The stalemate detector is wacky sometimes

[syjfwbaobfwl]

The stalemate detector is wacky sometimes

in this situation is not wacky, thats literally what is intended to do



The detector is there in order to prevent draws, there are many 1v1 scenarios where game ends giving the win to one side in order to prevent the game from ending in a draw

these scenarios include

escort vs any killing role

jailor without executions vs any killing role

GF vs CL/NK

and some others

[Joacgroso]

Yeah, the stalemate detector is there to prevent draws. Also, waiting 3 days when the game is solved and no one can die isn't fun for anyone. Since the escort can't possibly kill the arsonist but the arsonist in theory can kill the escort once he forgets to roleblock, the arso wins. Another way to see it is that in balanced games, an arsonist that made it to the final 2 played a lot better than a town that lost 8 members, so the arso deserves the win more.

[James2]

I had a game where I was escort, it was at the end with a pest, arso, and me.

We vote out the pest and the arso auto wins? it should be atleast a draw since arso literally can't ignite as long as I am escort.

This makes no sense to me.

If the game goes on forever, the escort will eventually forget to block the arsonist. Since draws are undesirable this should be considered an arsonist win.

[Joacgroso]

Why are draws undesirable? I know the devs don't like them, but I don't know their reasoning. Normally one player wants the draw while the other doesn't, which means they are desired enough by the players.

[syjfwbaobfwl]

Why are draws undesirable? I know the devs don't like them, but I don't know their reasoning. Normally one player wants the draw while the other doesn't, which means they are desired enough by the players.

Probably because draws end up causing players to wait 2-3 days when one side could and/or should have won, and they prefer giving the role who has a harder time winning the victory

If you dont count Mafioso/Gf vs NK or transporter vs mafioso then all stalemates are situations where one side can win and the other cant


Also people go for draws because its better than a loss, thats all

[Joacgroso]

I was asking while draws were inherently bad. The wait isn't really the cause, since that can be easily solved by making the stalemate detector end the game in a draw rather than in a win. I guess a possible argument is that a mafia that lost 75% of their members played better than a town that lost 88.89% of its players, and therefore a draw would be unfair. But I'm curious about how the devs justified it.

[James2]

Why are draws undesirable? I know the devs don't like them, but I don't know their reasoning. Normally one player wants the draw while the other doesn't, which means they are desired enough by the players.

Draws bifurcate wincons. They can put players in the position of choosing between playing for an unlikely win vs playing for a more plausible draw (killer vs vet is a good example of this).

[syjfwbaobfwl]

Why are draws undesirable? I know the devs don't like them, but I don't know their reasoning. Normally one player wants the draw while the other doesn't, which means they are desired enough by the players.

Draws bifurcate wincons. They can put players in the position of choosing between playing for an unlikely win vs playing for a more plausible draw (killer vs vet is a good example of this).

altho vet does not have stalemate detector (except with WW)

[Joacgroso]

Draws bifurcate wincons. They can put players in the position of choosing between playing for an unlikely win vs playing for a more plausible draw (killer vs vet is a good example of this).

Yeah, but that's only one particular case, isn't it? Most stalemates happen when no one can really choose to win.

[James2]

Why are draws undesirable? I know the devs don't like them, but I don't know their reasoning. Normally one player wants the draw while the other doesn't, which means they are desired enough by the players.

Draws bifurcate wincons. They can put players in the position of choosing between playing for an unlikely win vs playing for a more plausible draw (killer vs vet is a good example of this).

altho vet does not have stalemate detector (except with WW)

Town should win if the killer refuses to attack vet. Or, alternatively, the killer should autowin that stand off since they almost certainly would win if the draw timer did not exist.

Draws bifurcate wincons. They can put players in the position of choosing between playing for an unlikely win vs playing for a more plausible draw (killer vs vet is a good example of this).

Yeah, but that's only one particular case, isn't it? Most stalemates happen when no one can really choose to win.

It's an extreme case, but there are many scenarios where draws would create bifurcated goals. E.g. an SK, a GF, and two townies (one of whom has expressed sympathy with the GF). The correct play for GF is to no-kill and try to get the surviving townie to side with him. But if SK vs GF was a draw, the GF could play for the draw by attacking the townie less likely to be attacked by SK (even though that reduces his chances of winning). This is a systemic problem that would affect any scenario where the winning play and the drawing play are different and the latter is more likely to work.

[MaikeruSapphire]

I had a game where I was escort, it was at the end with a pest, arso, and me.

We vote out the pest and the arso auto wins? it should be atleast a draw since arso literally can't ignite as long as I am escort.

This makes no sense to me.

If the game goes on forever, the escort will eventually forget to block the arsonist. Since draws are undesirable this should be considered an arsonist win.

This happened to me in a game where I was escort and I made it to the final 2 against a vampire. I guess it *kind of* makes sense to have that be an automatic vamp win, but wouldn't I eventually be converted once I forgot to roleblock, and thus also win the game as a vampire?

[James2]

I agree the escort should also win in that scenario.