What can be done about Jailor as a whole?

[CrowFoxy2]

I'm just gonna pre-face this by saying that by all means I am not some pro Town of Salem player, however I have been around for a lot of hours and played quite a few matches so I thought maybe I can try to talk about the meta.

It's really...not fun is how I can put it easily. It gets very repetitive. Even in lower ELOs meta tends to be.
1. Call Jailor.
2. LO exists? TP is confirmed, roles are gathered. (After 1, nothing is in any order really)
3. TIs come out. More roles gathered.
4. Process continues and unless you've got some good maf roles like Janitor things can be rough.

I don't like Jailor, I think with 3 unstoppable attacks at their disposable Jailor is high risk sure, but also ridiculously high reward, proven and confirmed basically instantly with no risk in doing so (at least in the start), hard to claim but possible I guess. NOT if the Jailor is alive of course.
I just think the role needs some adjustment.

(Also getting exe'd on n2 when no evidence was put on you at all, really sucks smh)

[Joacgroso]

This has been brought up several times. You may want to read threads like this, this and this. The devs are working to nerf the meta.
But regarding what you said, just because there is a lookout it doesn't mean the visitors on jailor are confimed. Arsonists, forgers, framers, consorts (if they don't claim escort) and maybe even consiglieres can get away with it. TIs can come out day 2, but evils TI should do that too to increase the chaos. Unless all TIs are lookouts, evils will have some time before they are found out. They can always use their fake info to try to push misslynches or missexecutions. The thing with the meta is claiming early and knowing what to claim. A common tactic is, if you are evil, claiming lookout or TP when jailed n1, since you have an excuse not to be on jailor.
I don't think people should only be executed "with evidence". Usually, jailors have good reasonings to execute people despite no sheriffs calling them mafia. If they don't vote, don't claim and don't counter claim, of course they are going to be executed. Town can actually lose mayority pretty easily in ranked, especially with a serial killer. If the jailor doesn't kill n2, town might be at a serious disadvantage by the next day.

[Supertcgamer]

This has been brought up several times. You may want to read threads like this, this and this. The devs are working to nerf the meta.
But regarding what you said, just because there is a lookout it doesn't mean the visitors on jailor are confimed. Arsonists, forgers, framers, consorts (if they don't claim escort) and maybe even consiglieres can get away with it. TIs can come out day 2, but evils TI should do that too to increase the chaos. Unless all TIs are lookouts, evils will have some time before they are found out. They can always use their fake info to try to push misslynches or missexecutions. The thing with the meta is claiming early and knowing what to claim. A common tactic is, if you are evil, claiming lookout or TP when jailed n1, since you have an excuse not to be on jailor.
I don't think people should only be executed "with evidence". Usually, jailors have good reasonings to execute people despite no sheriffs calling them mafia. If they don't vote, don't claim and don't counter claim, of course they are going to be executed. Town can actually lose mayority pretty easily in ranked, especially with a serial killer. If the jailor doesn't kill n2, town might be at a serious disadvantage by the next day.

You're making thia sound like it's easy. If RM does visit jailor they're risking being found out by a spy/lo combo. Not to mention depending on the roles in RTs will easily get people thinking, hm one tp and 3 RTS when jailor has a LO on him that spotted 3 visits.

Say game A has 4 tps and two extra visits from maf from both RM. Both RM claims TP, there can't be 6 TP. Yes there is chaos but Mafia will have to be very selective on who is killed not to confirm TP/RT. And be quick about it with killing and who gets msynched. This gives jailor and town plenty of time to weed out the liars. As well not to foget Gf and mafioso having tight claim space with one TI a tk and TS. So them being ccd is also possible in this time frame. This is a high end stack against mafia. (And spy being ingame as the other TI makes this 1000% worse for mafia.)

Game B is similar to game A but instead of both RMs claim tp, the other claims spy, the other TI slot but this will just come down for a 1 f 1. As one of the TI slots has a confirmed LO, the fake spy claim versus any other TI claim that isn't a second LO will become a mslynch or a good lynch on maf.

Game C We'll cut RT Tp down to none. So that means 3 RTs are open for anything atm. If both RMs visit jailor , LO sees real tp and the RMs. This leaves a high possibility for spy with one TI slot open and 3 RTS. Maf is eventually gonna lose 2 mafia starting day 2 or day 3. Then it's up to gf and mafioso to take out LO then jailor, and they'll need NE and NK to play their cards right to stand a chance at winning.

I can continue but I'm not. Mafia visiting jailor to look like tp or spy or escort puts maf at risk incase of spy or simple mathematics. You can only have a max of 4 TP if all Rts are tp. You can only have a max of 5 TI and if both RMS claim spy they'll look sus for these reasons, having multiple spies is sus and there may be other TI claims that are actual TIs ccing the spies that visited jailor, especially when a legit spy is in game saying jailor was visited by maf. Mafia is at a disadvantage and must take very risky actions at the beginning of the game.

If consort visits jailor and again there is a spy, they know there is a consort even without a LO. Spy and LO are not the problems, it's mr. Macho jailor who can reveal by claiming jailor like how mayor can reveal. It's just jailor can still whisper and be protected by both bg and doc.

[Joacgroso]

Winning as mafia with jailor meta might not be easy and take some luck, but it's definitely possible. Here is what I think mafia could do in this situation:

You're making thia sound like it's easy. If RM does visit jailor they're risking being found out by a spy/lo combo.

A lookout/spy combo is not that likely. But the possibility of it existing is actually the reason why RM must visit the jailor. If they don't, the lookout and spy will confirm everyone who visited the jailor as not mafia, which will be catastrophic for them. Having one of you suspected as mafia is better than having 3 or more confirmed townies from day 2. Besides, with the lookout nerf town won't be able to be 100% sure a visitor is mafia. But visiting the jailor increases the chances of the lookout not seeing an actual townie.

Not to mention depending on the roles in RTs will easily get people thinking, hm one tp and 3 RTS when jailor has a LO on him that spotted 3 visits.

Games with more than 1 TP aren't that rare. Even then, there are lots of ways to justify visits. TPs, lookouts, spies and escorts might visit the jailor n1. If there are lots of TP claims, mafia can always try to make jailor exe a TP. Sure, it's not easy, but that's because playing as mafia takes more skill than playing as town.

Say game A has 4 tps and two extra visits from maf from both RM.

It's not necessary for both RM to visit the jailor. One is enough to counter the spy/lookout combo.

Both RM claims TP, there can't be 6 TP.

Lookouts can only see up to 3 visits. It's pretty unlikely that in that scenario both mafia members would be seen by the lookout. Even then, they can just claim spy, or coordinate votes with other mafia to push the actual TPs. In fact, it's even possible for one of the mafia members to claim lookout and say he saw the other mafia and the spy claims visiting the jailor.

Yes there is chaos but Mafia will have to be very selective on who is killed not to confirm TP/RT. And be quick about it with killing and who gets msynched. This gives jailor and town plenty of time to weed out the liars. As well not to foget Gf and mafioso having tight claim space with one TI a tk and TS. So them being ccd is also possible in this time frame. This is a high end stack against mafia. (And spy being ingame as the other TI makes this 1000% worse for mafia.

You are underestimating the amount of chaos that 6 tp claims would create. In that situation, it's very easy to make jailor execute a tp, making him not as much of a threat. If MK claim TI they will be more trusted than the TPs, and they might be able to swing jailor's opinion in their favor. After that, if evils are smart and vote together town won't be able to do much against them. Also, you implied that misslynching townies gives town more time, but it's actually the opposite. The less their numbers, the less decisions they can make. In a game where several TPs are pushing each other, voting the same person might be hard. If it's necessary, mafia might have to resort to tunneling. But having multiple TPs isn't related to the jailor meta. No matter what mafia claims, killing townies will be hard.

Game B is similar to game A but instead of both RMs claim tp, the other claims spy, the other TI slot but this will just come down for a 1 f 1. As one of the TI slots has a confirmed LO, the fake spy claim versus any other TI claim that isn't a second LO will become a mslynch or a good lynch on maf.

That will hapen if mafia isn't good at causing chaos. The point is making the chat a mess so everyone throws accusations everywhere and no one knows who to vote. Besides, it wouldn't be a 1 for 1. Not all TPs would be confirmed. People might suspect them as arso, or as RM. And the lookout won't see all of their visits. Besides, you are underestimating the importance of a misslynch. One single misslynch can give evils mayority, especially since town will barely have any TKs or TSs to turn the game around in the scenario.

Game C We'll cut RT Tp down to none. So that means 3 RTs are open for anything atm. If both RMs visit jailor , LO sees real tp and the RMs. This leaves a high possibility for spy with one TI slot open and 3 RTS. Maf is eventually gonna lose 2 mafia starting day 2 or day 3. Then it's up to gf and mafioso to take out LO then jailor, and they'll need NE and NK to play their cards right to stand a chance at winning.

Yeah, that would be pretty unlucky. It would be safer is mafia only sent 1 RM n1 while the other stayed home or visited someone else. Even then, keep in mind that spies, lookouts, tp, arsos and mafia are many visits on the jailor. Only 1 townie visiting would be rare, and would allow mafia to lynch other TPs/lo/spies/escorts who didn't visit jailor n1.

I can continue but I'm not. Mafia visiting jailor to look like tp or spy or escort puts maf at risk incase of spy or simple mathematics. You can only have a max of 4 TP if all Rts are tp. You can only have a max of 5 TI and if both RMS claim spy they'll look sus for these reasons, having multiple spies is sus and there may be other TI claims that are actual TIs ccing the spies that visited jailor, especially when a legit spy is in game saying jailor was visited by maf. Mafia is at a disadvantage and must take very risky actions at the beginning of the game.

If consort visits jailor and again there is a spy, they know there is a consort even without a LO. Spy and LO are not the problems, it's mr. Macho jailor who can reveal by claiming jailor like how mayor can reveal. It's just jailor can still whisper and be protected by both bg and doc.

Yeah, that's why jailor meta is a thing. But I don't think it's that unfair to evils. They are more challenging roles, which is fine because they are less players. Ideally, mafia should coordinate so they don't cc each other, especially if they both plan to visit the jailor. Visiting him may be risky, but not visiting is riskier.
And if there are 5 spies or 4 tp, pushing misslynches will be very easy because those roles are very hard to prove.
The problem is definitely not the jailor. Anyone can ask for tp lo day 1. A transporter, and escort, a mayor, a jailor and even a sheriff can pull it off. As long as there are lookouts and spies, visiting will be worthy. Personally I don't think mayors should get those nerfs after revealing, but that's a subject of another thread.

[kyuss420]

so LO sees 3 visitors, spy sees RM visited the jailor...

LO basically has a psy vision, with 2 TP and 1 maf on it...... sounds just like a VIP match day 2 (which usually ends with town mislynching a TP and everyone on tilt for the rest of the match)

But seriously, just the existence of this meta has got me innoed so many times now, when 6 months ago, i would of been hung day 2.... 2 days ago a tracker literally watched me, the PM, kill the jailor n1, while the CL controlled the crus away, and I got innoed cos ''Im escort! I RBed the jailor! Isnt there a LO???'' (then I framed the medium as tt and got them lynched for saying the jailor wasnt RBed next day)