Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

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Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby Achilles » Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:56 pm

These are the current changes we have planned for Disguiser, Framer and Investigator.

Disguiser
Keeps existing functionality. Gains a special ability to disguise a player as another role the night they die. Disguiser will be able to choose any role from a unique UI menu to disguise the player as. Limit 1 (maybe 2) uses. The Disguiser will also learn the role of the dead player and the players last will shall appear empty.

Dev Comments:
Currently the Disguiser needs to die to affect the graveyard with misinformation. This will allow the Disguiser to have an impact without having to die. Learning the role of the player they disguise will open up claim space for the Mafia. Additionally the Mafia will be able to disguise a dead town role as a Mafia member or a Neutral role which could really confuse the Town.

Framer
Frames will now last until a Sheriff or Investigator checks the framed target. Framer can now frame his own teammates, making them appear not suspicious to the Sheriff and as a Framer to the Investigator.

Dev Comments:
Currently the Framer has to be very skilled or very lucky to frame the same target as the Sheriff or Investigator, especially on the first few nights where there are 10+ people to choose from. Having frames persist beyond 1 night will boost the power of the Framer significantly. Being able to choose their own Mafia teammates has obvious advantages, but one of the biggest will be that it can now confuse the Spy. The Spy will not be able to assume that everyone the Mafia visits is non-Mafia anymore.

Investigator
You may be wondering why we are looking to change the Investigator as it is not a role many people have issues with. Allow me to explain:

The Investigator has 2 main issues we are looking to address.
1) Great consideration has to be taken for every role list that is created to ensure that there is claim space for evil roles against the Investigator. This limits role list design potential and changes the strength of the Investigator depending on the role list. Having to design our role lists around 1 role in the game isn't great and has been on our list to try to improve for a long time now.

2) Evil roles are typically forced to fake claim one of the potential roles on the Investigator's feedback or risk being outed by an Investigator. This limits evil roles to only a few Town roles they can fake claim as. Also evil roles need to have the Investigator's feedback memorized or have a cheat sheet. This is very unfriendly for new players.

We sat down and tried to design a rework for the Investigator that solves these issues and opens up claim space for evil roles. We believe that the game will be more fun and have more deceptive potential if evil roles are not limited on their fake claims.

The changes:
The Investigator gathers more information about their target each night. After two nights they will learn the role of their target. This information is still effected by frames, hexes and douses. It will show Framer, HexMaster or Arsonist in those situations. Investigator does not have to visit the same target consecutively to learn their role. They can choose a different target each night and have previous roles at 50% discovery and then choose to check any of their previous targets.
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Re: Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby KAKERMAN23 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:04 pm

the invest one is interesting
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Re: Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby Brilliand » Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:26 pm

Achilles wrote:Disguiser
Keeps existing functionality. Gains a special ability to disguise a player as another role the night they die. Disguiser will be able to choose any role from a unique UI menu to disguise the player as. Limit 1 (maybe 2) uses. The Disguiser will also learn the role of the dead player and the players last will shall appear empty.


This seems like the right general direction to buff the Disguiser in. I'm a bit doubtful about the will-blanking because it gives the Town a hint that they should suspect this person was Disguised, but it might be for the best.

Will the Forger be able to replace this blank will with a forgery? (I hope so.)

Achilles wrote:Framer
Frames will now last until a Sheriff or Investigator checks the framed target. Framer can now frame his own teammates, making them appear not suspicious to the Sheriff and as a Framer to the Investigator.


Visiting teammates to protect them from being caught feels like it dilutes the role's purpose of making someone look bad, and also steps on the toes of the Godfather.

The route of giving the Framer a way to interfere with every TI role is better than this. I don't really mind this change if you want to add it, but I want to be clear that it won't be enough.

Achilles wrote:Investigator
The Investigator gathers more information about their target each night. After two nights they will learn the role of their target. This information is still effected by frames, hexes and douses. It will show Framer, HexMaster or Arsonist in those situations. Investigator does not have to visit the same target consecutively to learn their role. They can choose a different target each night and have previous roles at 50% discovery and then choose to check any of their previous targets.


A full-on role cop at the cost of several nights? Am I understanding this right? I think the Investigator needs to have more uncertainty than that, somehow.

What do you mean by "50% discovery"?
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Re: Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby cob709 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:40 pm

Achilles wrote:These are the current changes we have planned for Disguiser, Framer and Investigator.

Disguiser
Keeps existing functionality. Gains a special ability to disguise a player as another role the night they die. Disguiser will be able to choose any role from a unique UI menu to disguise the player as. Limit 1 (maybe 2) uses. The Disguiser will also learn the role of the dead player and the players last will shall appear empty.

Dev Comments:
Currently the Disguiser needs to die to affect the graveyard with misinformation. This will allow the Disguiser to have an impact without having to die. Learning the role of the player they disguise will open up claim space for the Mafia. Additionally the Mafia will be able to disguise a dead town role as a Mafia member or a Neutral role which could really confuse the Town.

I like where this is heading. The disguiser should definitely be able to help Mafia while still alive, but the thing is, this is a more powerful Janitor which is the only issue.
This could've been much better, but I accept it for now.
/support

Achilles wrote:Framer
Frames will now last until a Sheriff or Investigator checks the framed target. Framer can now frame his own teammates, making them appear not suspicious to the Sheriff and as a Framer to the Investigator.

Dev Comments:
Currently the Framer has to be very skilled or very lucky to frame the same target as the Sheriff or Investigator, especially on the first few nights where there are 10+ people to choose from. Having frames persist beyond 1 night will boost the power of the Framer significantly. Being able to choose their own Mafia teammates has obvious advantages, but one of the biggest will be that it can now confuse the Spy. The Spy will not be able to assume that everyone the Mafia visits is non-Mafia anymore.

Okay.. Seems interesting, instead of making someone look evil, they can make their teammates look good.
Not a huge fan of this one, protecting their own teammates is too easy and will make the sheriff role completely useless.
Though, it is somewhat better than the current framer.
/neutral

Achilles wrote:Investigator
You may be wondering why we are looking to change the Investigator as it is not a role many people have issues with. Allow me to explain:

The Investigator has 2 main issues we are looking to address.
1) Great consideration has to be taken for every role list that is created to ensure that there is claim space for evil roles against the Investigator. This limits role list design potential and changes the strength of the Investigator depending on the role list. Having to design our role lists around 1 role in the game isn't great and has been on our list to try to improve for a long time now.

2) Evil roles are typically forced to fake claim one of the potential roles on the Investigator's feedback or risk being outed by an Investigator. This limits evil roles to only a few Town roles they can fake claim as. Also evil roles need to have the Investigator's feedback memorized or have a cheat sheet. This is very unfriendly for new players.

We sat down and tried to design a rework for the Investigator that solves these issues and opens up claim space for evil roles. We believe that the game will be more fun and have more deceptive potential if evil roles are not limited on their fake claims.

The changes:
The Investigator gathers more information about their target each night. After two nights they will learn the role of their target. This information is still effected by frames, hexes and douses. It will show Framer, HexMaster or Arsonist in those situations. Investigator does not have to visit the same target consecutively to learn their role. They can choose a different target each night and have previous roles at 50% discovery and then choose to check any of their previous targets.

I'll be real here, this is too powerful. It can confirm townies so easily, almost as easily as a Trapper.
I suggest keeping it the way it currently is, or at least make it less powerful.
sorry,
/nosupport
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Re: Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby cob709 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:43 pm

Brilliand wrote:What do you mean by "50% discovery"?

It means that they need to visit them again in order to get their role.
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Re: Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby PyromonkeyGG » Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:09 pm

People should remember that these changes will be in context to one another as well. The investigator change will also be in a world where framers will more often get value from their frames.
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Re: Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby cob709 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:11 pm

PyromonkeyGG wrote:People should remember that these changes will be in context to one another as well. The investigator change will also be in a world where framers will more often get value from their frames.

do framed mafia members appear as framer to investigator?
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Re: Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby PyromonkeyGG » Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:14 pm

Yes, and if they are doused they so arso, hexed they show as hexmaster.
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Re: Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby Brilliand » Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:30 pm

PyromonkeyGG wrote:People should remember that these changes will be in context to one another as well. The investigator change will also be in a world where framers will more often get value from their frames.


Framer will still have less than a 50% chance of rolling in Ranked, and less than a 50% chance of hitting the Investigator's target no later than he does. Also, the Framer still leaves a pretty good hint that the target was framed, so the possibility of a framer isn't likely to make the Investigator doubt himself when he gets a non-framed result.

I'm not sure this version of the Investigator is overpowered overall (alternating nights is a pretty big penalty), but it seems like a bad dynamic to me. I think "Swingy' is the right word here.
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Re: Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby Superalex11 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:33 pm

If the only effect on spy is that framer change it really won't be much of a difference. Only 25% of ranked games will even have a framer, so even assuming constant maf-framing a spy will still be very much mostly correct in assuming visits are non-maf - i.e. when accused of being maf, someone not visited by a maf will still nigh-always be hanged over someone visited by a maf, since spy is more of a falsifier than a verifier.
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Re: Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby OreCreeper » Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:11 pm

Achilles wrote:These are the current changes we have planned for Disguiser, Framer and Investigator.

Disguiser
Keeps existing functionality. Gains a special ability to disguise a player as another role the night they die. Disguiser will be able to choose any role from a unique UI menu to disguise the player as. Limit 1 (maybe 2) uses. The Disguiser will also learn the role of the dead player and the players last will shall appear empty.

Dev Comments:
Currently the Disguiser needs to die to affect the graveyard with misinformation. This will allow the Disguiser to have an impact without having to die. Learning the role of the player they disguise will open up claim space for the Mafia. Additionally the Mafia will be able to disguise a dead town role as a Mafia member or a Neutral role which could really confuse the Town.
[b]Good but a few things. The Disguiser should only be able to disguise the player as another player, instead of any role. The Disguiser should not delete the player's will, since that removes a lot of the utility from this buff, since if someone has posted a will before, and when they die they have no will, it hints to a Disguiser. Keeping the will doesn't matter much, since if you turn your target into a mafia/neutral role, town will likely discredit them anyway. I get that cleaning wills can be helpful to open claimspace, but honestly that's janitor's job. Disguiser functions differently and serves a different purpose. This ability should allow mafia to do stuff like disguising a townie as mafia and then "outing them", or stuff like that.[/b]
Framer
Frames will now last until a Sheriff or Investigator checks the framed target. Framer can now frame his own teammates, making them appear not suspicious to the Sheriff and as a Framer to the Investigator.

Dev Comments:
Currently the Framer has to be very skilled or very lucky to frame the same target as the Sheriff or Investigator, especially on the first few nights where there are 10+ people to choose from. Having frames persist beyond 1 night will boost the power of the Framer significantly. Being able to choose their own Mafia teammates has obvious advantages, but one of the biggest will be that it can now confuse the Spy. The Spy will not be able to assume that everyone the Mafia visits is non-Mafia anymore.
So its just a big nerf to the Sheriff overall, which is not needed, as Sheriff is already the weakest TI. I would suggest keeping temporary frames but make the framer able to affect all TIs in some way. In addition there should be a limited use ability to hide your visit from spies and potentially lookouts/trackers to maximize the power of the role.
Investigator
You may be wondering why we are looking to change the Investigator as it is not a role many people have issues with. Allow me to explain:

The Investigator has 2 main issues we are looking to address.
1) Great consideration has to be taken for every role list that is created to ensure that there is claim space for evil roles against the Investigator. This limits role list design potential and changes the strength of the Investigator depending on the role list. Having to design our role lists around 1 role in the game isn't great and has been on our list to try to improve for a long time now.

2) Evil roles are typically forced to fake claim one of the potential roles on the Investigator's feedback or risk being outed by an Investigator. This limits evil roles to only a few Town roles they can fake claim as. Also evil roles need to have the Investigator's feedback memorized or have a cheat sheet. This is very unfriendly for new players.

We sat down and tried to design a rework for the Investigator that solves these issues and opens up claim space for evil roles. We believe that the game will be more fun and have more deceptive potential if evil roles are not limited on their fake claims.

The changes:
The Investigator gathers more information about their target each night. After two nights they will learn the role of their target. This information is still effected by frames, hexes and douses. It will show Framer, HexMaster or Arsonist in those situations. Investigator does not have to visit the same target consecutively to learn their role. They can choose a different target each night and have previous roles at 50% discovery and then choose to check any of their previous targets.
You want to turn investigator into a half-the-time Town Consigliere? TI should never be able to find exact roles- Investigator is fine as is. It allows sufficient claimspace for most evils while at the same time being powerful enough, and less swingy than Sheriff. Also new gamemodes don't even come around that often, and the first point just comes off as lazy honestly. It seems like a half-baked excuse for the devs to not have to balance rolelists which is dumb. As for the second point, its true to an extent, but you want to fix this by giving evils no claimspace at all? This seems kind of counterintuitive to me.
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Re: Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby cob709 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:23 pm

N1: Investigator and Framer visit (mafia member)
N2: Sheriff, Investigator, and Framer visit (mafia member)
D3: Sheriff says "(mafia member) is innocent!" Investigator says "(mafia member) is Framer!"
"wait... if they're innocent AND framer then that means they were mafia framed by framer..."
D3: (mafia member gets lynched)
(framer is exposed)

N1: Investigator and Framer visit (town member)
N2: Sheriff, Investigator, and Framer visit (town member)
D3: Sheriff says "(town player) is suspicious!" Investigator says "(town player) is framer!"
"wait.. if they're suspicious AND framer, that means they are either framer or framed, but they cant be any other member of the mafia...."

Mission failed, we'll get em next time

Solution: Framer will frame the member of the mafia just like they frame any other player. They will still be suspicious to sheriff, and be framer to investigator.
This creates more doubt.
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Re: Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby thezipper100 » Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:36 pm

Gonna be honest here, those invest changes sound both too strong and less fun.
Too strong in the way of giving perfect role information to town, even on the limit of every other day, and Unfun in the sense of taking twice as long to get any results, and not having to look over what information you already know and figure it out for yourself. Combine that with the new framer, and there's a real good chance you just wasted two nights if the framer accidentally frames your target, as opposed to the one night it does right now. And an extra night is the difference between life and death.

I do think Invest needs changing, because right now it massively reduces claimspace for non-framers, but maybe a good change would be fewer invest pools with Greater ranges of results?
I remember RsunnyG made an invest pool rework a while back, It's honestly pretty good, but that was only for Coven. But the main things I wanted to take away from that list here is that the amount of Invest Pools was reduced to 8, and all the pools included 6 roles, with fairly even spreads between towns, evils and Neutrals across them, with exception to two of the pools, like how invest is today.

Most evils are forced into fakeclaiming 1 role with invest, 2 if they're lucky, but simply increasing the amount of roles evils can claim might be enough.

Or who knows, maybe this change will go great and everyopne will love it, who knows. All I know is that Invest does need a change, and I just think removing the invest pools is a bad idea, for gameplay, for balance, and for the identity of the role itself.
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Re: Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby Brilliand » Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:37 pm

OreCreeper wrote:The Disguiser should only be able to disguise the player as another player, instead of any role.


The "Transporter of apparent roles" idea for reworking Disguiser is OK, but that needs to work in both directions. A Disguiser that disguises one person based on one other person is still too weak.

Really, the Disguiser should have all of its role selection handled by a menu, with no need to find a player of the desired role. The only reason I haven't argued for that already is because it naturally implies the Disguiser should become a non-visiting role, which would nerf its ability to pretend to be TP in the Jailor meta.
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Re: Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby HAWAIIANpikachu » Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:26 am

Would spy see framer visit his mafia members or would it be invisible to spy?
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Re: Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby Brilliand » Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:29 am

HAWAIIANpikachu wrote:Would spy see framer visit his mafia members or would it be invisible to spy?


I think this is answered by:

Achilles wrote:The Spy will not be able to assume that everyone the Mafia visits is non-Mafia anymore.
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Re: Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby Achilles » Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:43 am

OreCreeper wrote:[b]The Disguiser should not delete the player's will, since that removes a lot of the utility from this buff, since if someone has posted a will before, and when they die they have no will, it hints to a Disguiser. Keeping the will doesn't matter much, since if you turn your target into a mafia/neutral role, town will likely discredit them anyway. I get that cleaning wills can be helpful to open claimspace, but honestly that's janitor's job. Disguiser functions differently and serves a different purpose. This ability should allow mafia to do stuff like disguising a townie as mafia and then "outing them", or stuff like that.[/b]


Players will start putting their role in every will to counter Disguiser. You would never be able to disguise a Town as another Town role.
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Re: Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby HAWAIIANpikachu » Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:54 am

Brilliand wrote:
HAWAIIANpikachu wrote:Would spy see framer visit his mafia members or would it be invisible to spy?


I think this is answered by:

Achilles wrote:The Spy will not be able to assume that everyone the Mafia visits is non-Mafia anymore.

Ah I missed that lol
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Re: Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby Brilliand » Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:25 am

Achilles wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:[b]The Disguiser should not delete the player's will, since that removes a lot of the utility from this buff, since if someone has posted a will before, and when they die they have no will, it hints to a Disguiser. Keeping the will doesn't matter much, since if you turn your target into a mafia/neutral role, town will likely discredit them anyway. I get that cleaning wills can be helpful to open claimspace, but honestly that's janitor's job. Disguiser functions differently and serves a different purpose. This ability should allow mafia to do stuff like disguising a townie as mafia and then "outing them", or stuff like that.[/b]


Players will start putting their role in every will to counter Disguiser. You would never be able to disguise a Town as another Town role.


It would give the Forger the option to just straight-up put a will for the wrong role and claim the person was Disguised, though, which is kind of awesome.
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Re: Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby BlastingOff » Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:52 am

As for Invest, I think a better idea would be to make it so that they can "sample" one player and, when you sample two players, get information based on the sampled players' factions. This could be, for example, the game telling the Invest whenever they are from the same faction. I believe TG has a similar role, but could need some fleshing.

Obviously, we'd have to make it so Invest cannot sample revealed Mayor. Maybe Jailor too, due to them revealing D1 constantly.
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Re: Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby GreenStar02 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:17 am

I'm not liking the idea for the invest, since sacrificing another night to learn someone's exact role is still too powerful, even with framer, arso and hex master.

Maybe put more roles in each investigation result, so that evils have more claim space when investigated
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Re: Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby Matty89190 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:42 am

I like the first two changes, but I'm skeptical of the Invest rework. I agree with the rationale behind it, but this change doesn't feel like the right solution. Anything that can effectively insta-confirm townies like that is iffy, and what's more, it'll be boring to play, just a waiting game to get a dead-on result with no analysis or critical thinking involved.

Perhaps the Invest could choose one target the first night and a second the next, and then at the end of the second night see the roles of both targets without knowing who is who?

As it stands I have no hard ideas for something better, but I don't think this is the right direction to take the role.
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Re: Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby Ezradekezra » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:01 am

Achilles wrote:Disguiser
Keeps existing functionality. Gains a special ability to disguise a player as another role the night they die. Disguiser will be able to choose any role from a unique UI menu to disguise the player as. Limit 1 (maybe 2) uses. The Disguiser will also learn the role of the dead player and the players last will shall appear empty.

Dev Comments:
Currently the Disguiser needs to die to affect the graveyard with misinformation. This will allow the Disguiser to have an impact without having to die. Learning the role of the player they disguise will open up claim space for the Mafia. Additionally the Mafia will be able to disguise a dead town role as a Mafia member or a Neutral role which could really confuse the Town.

I like this a lot. My only issue is that it makes Forger even worse than it already is, so a Forger rework is also in order.

/support

Achilles wrote:Framer
Frames will now last until a Sheriff or Investigator checks the framed target. Framer can now frame his own teammates, making them appear not suspicious to the Sheriff and as a Framer to the Investigator.

Dev Comments:
Currently the Framer has to be very skilled or very lucky to frame the same target as the Sheriff or Investigator, especially on the first few nights where there are 10+ people to choose from. Having frames persist beyond 1 night will boost the power of the Framer significantly. Being able to choose their own Mafia teammates has obvious advantages, but one of the biggest will be that it can now confuse the Spy. The Spy will not be able to assume that everyone the Mafia visits is non-Mafia anymore.

It didn't make much sense to me why frames last a single night while hexes and douses have similar effects and remain for the entire game. I very much support this.

/support

Achilles wrote:Investigator
You may be wondering why we are looking to change the Investigator as it is not a role many people have issues with. Allow me to explain:

The Investigator has 2 main issues we are looking to address.
1) Great consideration has to be taken for every role list that is created to ensure that there is claim space for evil roles against the Investigator. This limits role list design potential and changes the strength of the Investigator depending on the role list. Having to design our role lists around 1 role in the game isn't great and has been on our list to try to improve for a long time now.

2) Evil roles are typically forced to fake claim one of the potential roles on the Investigator's feedback or risk being outed by an Investigator. This limits evil roles to only a few Town roles they can fake claim as. Also evil roles need to have the Investigator's feedback memorized or have a cheat sheet. This is very unfriendly for new players.

We sat down and tried to design a rework for the Investigator that solves these issues and opens up claim space for evil roles. We believe that the game will be more fun and have more deceptive potential if evil roles are not limited on their fake claims.

The changes:
The Investigator gathers more information about their target each night. After two nights they will learn the role of their target. This information is still effected by frames, hexes and douses. It will show Framer, HexMaster or Arsonist in those situations. Investigator does not have to visit the same target consecutively to learn their role. They can choose a different target each night and have previous roles at 50% discovery and then choose to check any of their previous targets.

Being able to confirm any townie or evil N2 is just too OP in my opinion. If you want to open up more claim space, I'd shake up Investigator results and create larger pools of results. GA could be moved to the Surv/VH/Amne/Medu/Psy category, Arso could be moved to the Fram/Vamp/Jest/HM category (since most of the other roles that affect invest results are there), and the rest of the roles could be rearranged to create categories with at least 5 roles in them (6 in Coven).

/nosupport
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Re: Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby OreCreeper » Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:21 pm

Achilles wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:[b]The Disguiser should not delete the player's will, since that removes a lot of the utility from this buff, since if someone has posted a will before, and when they die they have no will, it hints to a Disguiser. Keeping the will doesn't matter much, since if you turn your target into a mafia/neutral role, town will likely discredit them anyway. I get that cleaning wills can be helpful to open claimspace, but honestly that's janitor's job. Disguiser functions differently and serves a different purpose. This ability should allow mafia to do stuff like disguising a townie as mafia and then "outing them", or stuff like that.[/b]


Players will start putting their role in every will to counter Disguiser. You would never be able to disguise a Town as another Town role.

If you disguise them as a mafia member, or an exe, or something, having a will doesn't matter since evils are expected to keep wills anyway.
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Re: Disguiser, Framer, Investigator

Postby xyzzy75 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:23 pm

This invest change sounds boring to play and makes them even more useless than they already are. Sheriffs can have certainty about evils, lookouts can report night activity, and invests can tell you in a couple of days, if they don't die, what someone's role is, provided they invest the same person 2 nights in a row and aren't stopped by trans, escort, consort, framer, jailor, or arsonist. Even a retri wouldn't use a dead invest.
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