BMG are corrupt (ranting) Ban system is trash.

[DarkRevon]

The fact that you can be perma banned is possibly THE STUPIDEST thing i have ever fucking known and needs to go IMMEDIATELY. like seriously just make the worst ban like a few months or something not FUCKING PERMANENT. Especially cause a lot of the reason are really fucking stupid, like seriously half of the times i was reported and banned was cause of times me and like one other person got into an argument and tbh i guess each time the stupid fucker reported me when i myself dont generally report them as its just a dumb argument the 2 of us got into and we should just leave it at that.

So yeah if you couldn't tell i was JUST banned for the 5th time so im perma banned now, been playing the game for just over 2 years. And yeah i can understand a couple of the times i was banned, but the rest were all just things that i really didn't need to get banned for like shit talking someone cause they pissed you off, now if i was harassing way more people for no reason then that makes sense, but if im just in an argument with one guy who the fuck cares).
Oh yeah and 1 of those other dumb bans was cause i went of and got pissed at someone who WITHOUT A DOUBT PURPOSELY GAME THREW. Yeah i guess BMG defend those people instead.

OK but again perma ban should only happen to people that are caught impersonating bmg or using cheats/hacks/bots or whatever, everything else should NEVER lead to a perma ban ever if you are banned several times just make the worst punishment for these ones as i said a few months or something. OR another way it shouldn't be apart of the same area like some of the reasons for being banned (say leaving,harassing,etc) should only ever result in a time ban, but others (like cheating,game throwing) could start as time bans but eventually lead to perma ban.

(agree? disagree?, who cares cause BMG sure as hell dont)

[Superalex11]

While I agree with you, these kinds of posts don't really do anything. BMG and the mods are only going to look at this in a negative light, and the only people who will agree with this are people who already agree, like me.
So if you're posting just to vent, then I guess this is sufficient. But if you're posting hopeful of change, I'd recommend a different approach.
Method aside, I do want to give my explicit support for some of these ideas though, as well as my own.


First, I think the perma-ban system put in place since the game went p2p is terrible and legitimately corrupt. The argument for it (as far as I can tell, reading through many reports/appeals) is that 1) BMG holds a (seemingly arbitrary) zero-tolerance policy for bannable actions, and 2) if people really want to play, they can just buy the game again under a new account.

The problem with 1) should be obvious: there DO exist cases where players should not be definitively permanently banned, even when the trial system judges them guilty. This is because, of course, the trial system is fallible as anything, and because people do sometimes make mistakes.
The purpose of a punishment system at all is to discourage poor behavior not just ex ante, but ex post. A punishment itself is often stronger than a threat of punishment.
So sure, repeat offenders clearly demonstrating that they didn't learn from past punishments should be handled strictly, but why should some kid who named themselves "rapist" once be permanently banned? Why is it that just about every appeal I see is rejected simply on the grounds that the person was deemed guilty by trial? What's even the point of appealing, then? Well again, the arguments often given bring me to my next point.

The problem with 2) is that it's senseless and, as far as I see it, just an attempted cash-grab. I understand why the p2p model exists, even specifically to do with the punishment system (that is, to prevent MAing thus leaving the punishment meaningless). And my argument here is not to do with it itself. The problem is that asserting that paying $5 is a sufficient demonstration that a rule-breaker has learned their lesson is completely nonsensical.
For people who've simply made a mistake (e.g. a one-time offense), I imagine any punishment would be sufficient to show their behavior is unacceptable - a permanent ban or $5 down the drain is completely excessive.
In other cases where the player knows exactly what they're doing, is a repeat offender, does something extreme, etc., a permanent ban is surely acceptable. But then I hear the argument that they are allowed to just rebuy the game on a new account... how does this solve the problem, exactly? The way I see it, allowing these people to come back in this way only serves to do two things: keep the playerbase in a poor state, and fill BMG's pockets. If BMG were truly dedicated to cleaning up the community, they would not allow serious offenders to continue playing - it's as simple as that.


Second, I think the focus on HS/H management is overwhelmingly unnecessary. The ABSOLUTE SMALLEST things in this category get people permanently banned - again, refer to the above example. This is a game on the internet in the year 2019, where the cultural divide has grown such that half the population wants to say funny things, and the other half wants to cry in a corner about it. The HS/H rulings need to be let up a lot, and BMG needs to stop killing its valuable community members with such a strong focus on HS/H.


Third, and sort of latched onto the HS/H point, is that the focus on gamethrowing/leaving is WAY too low - both on the ends of BMG/mods and of trial jurors. Maybe this is just by my own chance, but in game I rarely notice HS/H offenses, while I notice gamethrowing offenses 1 in 3-4 games, as well as 2-4 leavers PER game. However, as a trial juror the vast majority of reports handed to me are HS/H. Sometimes, gamethrowing reports aren't even completed because they didn't get enough votes, whereas this has never happened with a HS/H report I've voted on. Why?


And last, a bit more on leavers... BMG, you have known leavers have been a problem for ages. I've heard it said again and again that BMG knows, and that some system will be implemented post-unity. The argument often given for not punishing leavers is that we can't assume they actually left, because their internet might have died or the game crashed or something. But at this point, where I'm getting 2-4 leavers e v e r y game, I'm going to draw the line. There is no way that 2-4 people are being disconnected from the game for reasons out of their control every game. And so even if only 1 of those people are, then punishing that one unlucky guy to deal with the remainders is worth it. I cannot tell you how many games I've lost solely due to leavers. I don't have that number. Probably at least 100 of my 1000.


Anyway, then, I'll leave this post in hopes that it "un-derails" the thread, maybe giving OP's post a bit more standing.

[DarkRevon]

TY for replying yeah i mean im just ranting and venting but yeah i just hate the fact that even if i do re buy the game, i have to start all over for all the unlocks and stuff. Gonna try other social deductions games instead of town of perma banned LOL.

[kyuss420]

While I agree with you, these kinds of posts don't really do anything. BMG and the mods are only going to look at this in a negative light, and the only people who will agree with this are people who already agree, like me.
So if you're posting just to vent, then I guess this is sufficient. But if you're posting hopeful of change, I'd recommend a different approach.
Method aside, I do want to give my explicit support for some of these ideas though, as well as my own.


First, I think the perma-ban system put in place since the game went p2p is terrible and legitimately corrupt. The argument for it (as far as I can tell, reading through many reports/appeals) is that 1) BMG holds a (seemingly arbitrary) zero-tolerance policy for bannable actions, and 2) if people really want to play, they can just buy the game again under a new account.
How can you consider it corrupt, when its perfectly legal?

The problem with 1) should be obvious: there DO exist cases where players should not be definitively permanently banned, even when the trial system judges them guilty. This is because, of course, the trial system is fallible as anything, and because people do sometimes make mistakes.
The purpose of a punishment system at all is to discourage poor behavior not just ex ante, but ex post. A punishment itself is often stronger than a threat of punishment.
So sure, repeat offenders clearly demonstrating that they didn't learn from past punishments should be handled strictly, but why should some kid who named themselves "rapist" once be permanently banned? Why is it that just about every appeal I see is rejected simply on the grounds that the person was deemed guilty by trial? What's even the point of appealing, then? Well again, the arguments often given bring me to my next point.
Problem ToS has, compared to other games, People cant be muted as punishment, so the only punishment available is suspension or perma ban

The problem with 2) is that it's senseless and, as far as I see it, just an attempted cash-grab. I understand why the p2p model exists, even specifically to do with the punishment system (that is, to prevent MAing thus leaving the punishment meaningless). And my argument here is not to do with it itself. The problem is that asserting that paying $5 is a sufficient demonstration that a rule-breaker has learned their lesson is completely nonsensical.
For people who've simply made a mistake (e.g. a one-time offense), I imagine any punishment would be sufficient to show their behavior is unacceptable - a permanent ban or $5 down the drain is completely excessive.
In other cases where the player knows exactly what they're doing, is a repeat offender, does something extreme, etc., a permanent ban is surely acceptable. But then I hear the argument that they are allowed to just rebuy the game on a new account... how does this solve the problem, exactly? The way I see it, allowing these people to come back in this way only serves to do two things: keep the playerbase in a poor state, and fill BMG's pockets. If BMG were truly dedicated to cleaning up the community, they would not allow serious offenders to continue playing - it's as simple as that.
I really dont think BMG cares if you pay another $5 or just quit entirely. I think theyd actually prefer you quit entirely, to stop a repeat waste of everyones time

Second, I think the focus on HS/H management is overwhelmingly unnecessary. The ABSOLUTE SMALLEST things in this category get people permanently banned - again, refer to the above example. This is a game on the internet in the year 2019, where the cultural divide has grown such that half the population wants to say funny things, and the other half wants to cry in a corner about it. The HS/H rulings need to be let up a lot, and BMG needs to stop killing its valuable community members with such a strong focus on HS/H.
This is the easiest rule to guilty, because the proof is right there. Context is a thing, and even tho you may think youre being funny, no one knows what context youre using, so its always a guess as to whether you are joking or not, and just like in the real world, make a ''joke'' in front of the wrong person and you may lose your teeth, and no one is gonna care when your mumbling ''it was a joke'' in the hospital.


Third, and sort of latched onto the HS/H point, is that the focus on gamethrowing/leaving is WAY too low - both on the ends of BMG/mods and of trial jurors. Maybe this is just by my own chance, but in game I rarely notice HS/H offenses, while I notice gamethrowing offenses 1 in 3-4 games, as well as 2-4 leavers PER game. However, as a trial juror the vast majority of reports handed to me are HS/H. Sometimes, gamethrowing reports aren't even completed because they didn't get enough votes, whereas this has never happened with a HS/H report I've voted on. Why?
gamethrowing reports are harder to prove. Being dumb or making a dumb play is NOT gamethrowing, altho thats what 3/4 gamethrowing reports are crying about (eg vig rando shot n2, vet asked for TP/LO day 1) once again intention has to be proven

And last, a bit more on leavers... BMG, you have known leavers have been a problem for ages. I've heard it said again and again that BMG knows, and that some system will be implemented post-unity. The argument often given for not punishing leavers is that we can't assume they actually left, because their internet might have died or the game crashed or something. But at this point, where I'm getting 2-4 leavers e v e r y game, I'm going to draw the line. There is no way that 2-4 people are being disconnected from the game for reasons out of their control every game. And so even if only 1 of those people are, then punishing that one unlucky guy to deal with the remainders is worth it. I cannot tell you how many games I've lost solely due to leavers. I don't have that number. Probably at least 100 of my 1000.
Leavers are a problem, I agree with that. I have also lost many games becuase someone ''disconnected'' as soon as sheriff found them, giving town the chance to vfr and lynch another faction member instead, giving town a +2 majority the following day, when they should of lost that day, but as usual intention must be proven

[Faith331]

OP: None of this is my fault for the things I decided to type. I literally had a gun at my head as I broke rules for the 5th time, despite having been granted at least one appeal, as everyone else gets 4 chances. I'm not responsible for my own actions.

OR and this will probably fall on deaf ears here
Read the rules, and don't break them. There's a TON of players who don't, so you could, but you didn't.

[Superalex11]

How can you consider it corrupt, when its perfectly legal?

I don't mean to imply their actions are illegal. When I say corrupt, I mean in the sense of dishonesty, greed, etc.

Problem ToS has, compared to other games, People cant be muted as punishment, so the only punishment available is suspension or perma ban

The list of possible punishments doesn't come down to just muting and perm-banning. My suggestion here is that, at bare minimum, BMG needs to recognize that certain behaviors (though not allowed) do not warrant a permanent ban. Here are a few simple examples of less severe punishments which wouldn't inhibit gameplay:
- A temporary ban, as in the earlier system.
- An enhanced spam filter for the punished user (e.g. limiting messages per second much further).
- A temporary lock-out from certain modes (e.g. ranked) (or permanent for certain cases).

I really dont think BMG cares if you pay another $5 or just quit entirely. I think theyd actually prefer you quit entirely, to stop a repeat waste of everyones time

I think you missed my point on this one. I don't doubt that BMG prefers that people who are perm-banned quit entirely, but the fact that they allow people to come back who do deserve a permanent ban - just for a cash payment - only indicates that they care more about money than a bettered community (see above: corruption).

This is the easiest rule to guilty, because the proof is right there. Context is a thing, and even tho you may think youre being funny, no one knows what context youre using, so its always a guess as to whether you are joking or not, and just like in the real world, make a ''joke'' in front of the wrong person and you may lose your teeth, and no one is gonna care when your mumbling ''it was a joke'' in the hospital.

Again, I think you missed my point. I think the rules themselves on HS/H are excessive, and should be pulled back a bit (see above: player permanent banned for using the name "rapist" once). Jurors' approach to it is just the icing on the cake, demonstrating that the real problems in this game (gamethrowing/leavers) will not be solved by the community itself, and need BMG's input.

Leavers are a problem, I agree with that. I have also lost many games becuase someone ''disconnected'' as soon as sheriff found them, giving town the chance to vfr and lynch another faction member instead, giving town a +2 majority the following day, when they should of lost that day, but as usual intention must be proven

I strongly disagree that intention must be proven, because as I said, at this point it's just too far. There is no way that 2-4 people are leaving every game because of factors out of their control. And so if the boot goes down on a few innocents, at this point it's necessary. Maybe with some tweaks to the trial system, number of offenses can be taken into account more directly when considering punishment, so that these innocents aren't unduly convicted.

[RealZippyK]

OP: None of this is my fault for the things I decided to type. I literally had a gun at my head as I broke rules for the 5th time, despite having been granted at least one appeal, as everyone else gets 4 chances. I'm not responsible for my own actions.

OR and this will probably fall on deaf ears here
Read the rules, and don't break them. There's a TON of players who don't, so you could, but you didn't.

Unluckily for me, HS/H reports don't give you 4 chances/warnings. My 1st account made in 2016 was instantly banned for saying the N word once (Banned 2018).

[Faith331]

OP: None of this is my fault for the things I decided to type. I literally had a gun at my head as I broke rules for the 5th time, despite having been granted at least one appeal, as everyone else gets 4 chances. I'm not responsible for my own actions.

OR and this will probably fall on deaf ears here
Read the rules, and don't break them. There's a TON of players who don't, so you could, but you didn't.

Unluckily for me, HS/H reports don't give you 4 chances/warnings. My 1st account made in 2016 was instantly banned for saying the N word once (Banned 2018).

Well, don't know why you'd say the n word in a public forum with moderation and not expect to get banned.

[Superalex11]

Well, don't know why you'd say the n word in a public forum with moderation and not expect to get banned.

I don't think a single utterance of a single word by a dedicated player with zero past offenses warrants a non-appealable permanent ban.
Expectation is one thing - maybe knowing of the strictness of the system, expecting to get off with something oh so horrible might not be that palpable.
But whether or not someone can expect something from the system as is does not change the fact that the system should not exist as is, and needs to change.

[Faith331]

Well, don't know why you'd say the n word in a public forum with moderation and not expect to get banned.

I don't think a single utterance of a single word by a dedicated player with zero past offenses warrants a non-appealable permanent ban.
Expectation is one thing - maybe knowing of the strictness of the system, expecting to get off with something oh so horrible might not be that palpable.
But whether or not someone can expect something from the system as is does not change the fact that the system should not exist as is, and needs to change.

No, I don't think there should be any tolerance towards slurs. EVER. And clearly enough other people agree. Anyone 13 and older should know the harshness of those words. Pedophilia, racist slurs, and extreme thing like naming yourself rapist are the only things that get perma banned. If you have to be told to not do those things, you don't belong here. In fact, I would argue that every single one of those players knows how offensive it is and are doing it on purpose. You don't get to be a edgelord then cry when you get punished for it.

Don't say things you know are deeply offensive to people, don't get in trouble. Simple.

[Superalex11]

I don't think there should be any tolerance towards slurs. EVER.

Anyone 13 and older should know the harshness of those words.

If you have to be told to not do those things, you don't belong here.

You don't get to be a edgelord then cry when you get punished for it.

Don't say things you know are deeply offensive to people, don't get in trouble. Simple.

I don't mean to get too political here, but this reasoning is the exact kind of authoritarian thinking that's caused lots of problems in modern culture, and which will also kill this game if allowed to propogate further. I'm sure people can handle seeing a short string of letters on a screen for less than a few seconds without being traumatized. And I want to be clear that I'm not talking about repeat offenders or otherwise more egregious cases (e.g. slurs in the context of directed harassment). I'm talking about single utterances, such as RealZippyK's stated case.

[lalasex]

lmao I honestly remember when I had around 50+ gamethrowing reports (which were REALLY legit) and none of them were guiltied (heck even some were INNOED LMAO) yet when I called someone a Fine Person of the Female Variety I got banned for HS/H.....this community

[SparkingJay]

lmao I honestly remember when I had around 50+ gamethrowing reports (which were REALLY legit) and none of them were guiltied (heck even some were INNOED LMAO) yet when I called someone a Fine Person of the Female Variety I got banned for HS/H.....this community

So you are confessing to gamethrowing?

[Faith331]

I don't think there should be any tolerance towards slurs. EVER.

Anyone 13 and older should know the harshness of those words.

If you have to be told to not do those things, you don't belong here.

You don't get to be a edgelord then cry when you get punished for it.

Don't say things you know are deeply offensive to people, don't get in trouble. Simple.

I don't mean to get too political here, but this reasoning is the exact kind of authoritarian thinking that's caused lots of problems in modern culture, and which will also kill this game if allowed to propogate further. I'm sure people can handle seeing a short string of letters on a screen for less than a few seconds without being traumatized. And I want to be clear that I'm not talking about repeat offenders or otherwise more egregious cases (e.g. slurs in the context of directed harassment). I'm talking about single utterances, such as RealZippyK's stated case.

inb4 you call us a bunch of snowflakes for having no tolerance for hate speech. This is a private game, and if you don't like how it's handled you can leave.

I can assure you, even if you somehow got every judge and gmod on your side, that BMG would not change their minds about this.

[Grethius]

I don't think there should be any tolerance towards slurs. EVER.

Anyone 13 and older should know the harshness of those words.

If you have to be told to not do those things, you don't belong here.

You don't get to be a edgelord then cry when you get punished for it.

Don't say things you know are deeply offensive to people, don't get in trouble. Simple.

I don't mean to get too political here, but this reasoning is the exact kind of authoritarian thinking that's caused lots of problems in modern culture, and which will also kill this game if allowed to propogate further. I'm sure people can handle seeing a short string of letters on a screen for less than a few seconds without being traumatized. And I want to be clear that I'm not talking about repeat offenders or otherwise more egregious cases (e.g. slurs in the context of directed harassment). I'm talking about single utterances, such as RealZippyK's stated case.

inb4 you call us a bunch of snowflakes for having no tolerance for hate speech. This is a private game, and if you don't like how it's handled you can leave.

I can assure you, even if you somehow got every judge and gmod on your side, that BMG would not change their minds about this.

@Superalex11 here is some modern culture for you " DONT START NUTTIN, WONT BE NUTTIN!" If you do not understand what that means, here is a bit older culture for you " If you DO NOT want to do the time, DO NOT do the crime" Simple as that...

@ Faith331 I salute you!!!

[Superalex11]

This is a private game, and if you don't like how it's handled you can leave.

The whole mentality of "if you don't like it then leave" is the reason this game is failing in the first place. If enough people chose to come to the forums and voice their concerns rather than moving on to some other game, ToS would be in a much better place right now. But because of the weak and lazy attitude of "whatever, I'll just move on," we're now left where we are.

I can assure you, even if you somehow got every judge and gmod on your side, that BMG would not change their minds about this.

Well, then here's to hoping my post is a weighty enough straw on BMG's back.

"If you DO NOT want to do the time, DO NOT do the crime" Simple as that...

This is nigh word-for-word what Faith has said above, so since you're repeating it I'm assuming you've missed my point. Let me clarify: My problem (on HS/H) is with what is deemed a "crime" in itself, worthy enough for the level of punishment currently administered.

[Grethius]

This is a private game, and if you don't like how it's handled you can leave.

The whole mentality of "if you don't like it then leave" is the reason this game is failing in the first place. If enough people chose to come to the forums and voice their concerns rather than moving on to some other game, ToS would be in a much better place right now. But because of the weak and lazy attitude of "whatever, I'll just move on," we're now left where we are.

I can assure you, even if you somehow got every judge and gmod on your side, that BMG would not change their minds about this.

Well, then here's to hoping my post is a weighty enough straw on BMG's back.

"If you DO NOT want to do the time, DO NOT do the crime" Simple as that...

This is nigh word-for-word what Faith has said above, so since you're repeating it I'm assuming you've missed my point. Let me clarify: My problem (on HS/H) is with what is deemed a "crime" in itself, worthy enough for the level of punishment currently administered.

You know what they say about assumptions dont you? I am going to hypothesize that you have no idea wtf you are talking about so, I will help clue you in. There are sooo many things that are considered HS/H, whether it be racism based, misogyny based, anti-semetic, or even prejudicial based, or someone being excessively toxic in game, or someone purposely attacking someone game after game because someone didnt like what they were doing in a previous game, or someone suggesting something like " School Shooting Theme". Additionally, there are even more things that are found to be considered HS/H. Certain cases of HS/H are handled case by case then dealt with accordingly.

The reason why I pretty much repeated what Faith said is because "Modern Culture" always asks why something is against the rules. According to your "Modern Culture", your modern culture believes that "oh its just a meme its not that bad". And when I read this statement "People now, gen z, millennials don't take it as seriously because we didn't hear about the horror as it was happening." ( referring to the holocaust ), I lost it, I was in tears from laughing so hard at the huge claim of ignorance. I was not born during that time but, it seems unlike you, I read something called a History Book in the late 80's when I first had my first history lesson. I was actually hilariously insulted recently when someone said ," Dont hate on me because you're not cultured to memes "...Lol really?


Plus...since I am going to say you can actually read but your comprehension is severely lacking, I highly suggest you read the Rules IN game, the Play 2 Play rules( which if I am not mistaken are in a few different locations ) and then let those rules sink in.

As far as your problem with that is considered a crime, Traumatic events affect people differently. Even though something happened 2 years ago, 20 years ago, 50 years ago, 100 years ago it does NOT matter. I had a very abusive childhood so when I see someone who types up the name "Ibeatmykids", "Itouchchildren", it hits a nerve with me, secondly as I used to work in law enforcement, those 2 name alone are admissions to Abuse, assault and domestic violence. And when someone sees that kind of bullshit the people that have to read that crap wonder why BMG allows that kind of behavior, they think they allow people on here that are child molesters or child beaters. Then when that person is banned they use the reasoning "oh it was just a joke". Just because something did NOT happen to you and it does not bother you does NOT mean it didnt happen to someone else.

You are old enough and smart enough to know what is right and what is wrong. So if you get pissed off for getting punished because you knowingly broke the rules, I am going to say it again, "Dont start Nuttin, Wont be nuttin". Just because you think something is funny to you, may be hurtful and devastating to someone else because of what they have been through in their life. So to combat that kind of shit, BMG makes a blanket rule for HS/H. Then after a report for HS/H is generated, they go over it with a fine tooth comb to figure out why. So if you have a problem with that, then I highly suggest you find a new game to play.

[MysticMismagius]

The ultimate problem with OP's line of logic is that Town of Salem is a platform for speech. Everything that a person says on the forums, in-game, etc., and how BMG reacts to what its users say, reflects on them as a company. If people are allowed to spew hate speech and BMG doesn't ban them, then it gives the impression to outsiders that BMG accepts, or at worst, agrees with that hate speech, because they're allowing it on their platform. This would reflect very poorly on BMG. In short, they have to ban people for hate speech, otherwise they appear complicit in that behavior.

[kyuss420]

now the above kinda crap, should not only be banned, but their IP/email should be given to police, to further investigate possible terror suspects

[TurdPile]

now the above kinda crap, should not only be banned, but their IP/email should be given to police, to further investigate possible terror suspects

IP's are completely useless in this day and age. The faster you learn that, the better off you'll be. Email is also useless, because they are just using logins from the breach, which isn't indicative of the user themself.

[Grethius]

now the above kinda crap, should not only be banned, but their IP/email should be given to police, to further investigate possible terror suspects

IP's are completely useless in this day and age. The faster you learn that, the better off you'll be. Email is also useless, because they are just using logins from the breach, which isn't indicative of the user themself.

And the faster that you learn its a start to tracking these idiots down Turpile the better off YOU will be. If you want to know how that is possible Ill be glad to explain it to you. No matter where they bounce the signal from, it originates some where, it just takes times to actually trace it. Emails can also be traced. Everything you do online, no matter what sites you visit, what VPN's you use, what blocking software you have, what messages you send, or whatever is logged, traced and stored in a memory bank. Do not believe the hype that VPN's can hide what you are doing, No, they just make it more difficult to be traced, by making the process longer.

[Superalex11]

There are sooo many things that are considered HS/H, whether it be racism based, misogyny based, anti-semetic, or even prejudicial based, or someone being excessively toxic in game, or someone purposely attacking someone game after game because someone didnt like what they were doing in a previous game, or someone suggesting something like " School Shooting Theme". Additionally, there are even more things that are found to be considered HS/H.

Right, and my point is that the qualifications for HS/H punishments needs to be raised, or else the punishments themselves need to be lowered. You say I have no idea what I'm talking about but you keep responding as though you've not even read my posts.

The reason why I pretty much repeated what Faith said is because "Modern Culture" always asks why something is against the rules. According to your "Modern Culture", your modern culture believes that "oh its just a meme its not that bad".

I'm... not sure what your obsession with my use of the phrase "modern culture" is. I'm not trying to justify peoples' behaviors under the premise that it's in fitting with modern culture. Again, it seems to me you've really just not read my posts.

your comprehension is severely lacking

Ironic.

I highly suggest you read the Rules IN game, the Play 2 Play rules( which if I am not mistaken are in a few different locations ) and then let those rules sink in.

I've read over the rules several times and have used them as reference materials when I vote as a juror. Honestly, I'd be willing to bet I've read each rule thoroughly a greater number of times than you.

And when someone sees that kind of bullshit the people that have to read that crap wonder why BMG allows that kind of behavior, they think they allow people on here that are child molesters or child beaters.

Nobody believes that... This is the internet, people make shitty comments, people troll. >99.99% of people who make comments like that are not actual child molesters or child beaters - they're mostly children themselves.

So if you have a problem with that, then I highly suggest you find a new game to play.

See above:

The whole mentality of "if you don't like it then leave" is the reason this game is failing in the first place. If enough people chose to come to the forums and voice their concerns rather than moving on to some other game, ToS would be in a much better place right now. But because of the weak and lazy attitude of "whatever, I'll just move on," we're now left where we are.

If people are allowed to spew hate speech and BMG doesn't ban them, then it gives the impression to outsiders that BMG accepts, or at worst, agrees with that hate speech, because they're allowing it on their platform. This would reflect very poorly on BMG. In short, they have to ban people for hate speech, otherwise they appear complicit in that behavior.

Certainly, yes. However this doesn't apply to the cases I'm talking about. See above:

I'm not talking about repeat offenders or otherwise more egregious cases (e.g. slurs in the context of directed harassment). I'm talking about single utterances, such as RealZippyK's stated case.

[Blakiepug]

I agree that the trial system and judges in charge need to be looked into because you are right that in its current state the system is horribly corrupt. If players are only allowed to get 5 punishments over the lifetime over their account, then the judges have to be willing to actually have conversations with the players and to look at situations within a context. But as things are, the judges view all of their rules as black and white and have the attitude to mock the players that they punish without consequences thanks to their position of power within the community. It doesn't help that all of the judges are friends and quickly back each other up even when evidence of an abuse of power exists.

A judge (who I will not name) personally sought me out on Discord to threaten me that they were going to suspend my account the next day. I did not know who this person was, they just started messaging me out of the blue. Then when a suspension did come through, I made an appeal on here to which this judge was not only the first person to deny but then bothered me by sending a paragraph about how I had a guilty conscious for making the appeal to me in my Discord dms (again, I have no clue who this judge was or why they were messaging me so much). When I brought this to the trials server with screenshots, the judge in question claims that they give out these "fair warnings" to players on Discord all the time which is just simply not true because we checked afterwards and I was the only person they threatened with a suspension since May of this year.

On top of this unprofessional-ism of seeking players out and flaunting their power, there is another major issue with the trials system that isn't known to most and it's the fact that the judges have a "problem player list." This list is one that players who have a lot of open reports get put on to expedite the review of their accounts. While in theory this list doesn't sound like a bad idea, it allows for bully groups, particularly in ranked, to have a large amount of influence over the trials system. I am ranked in Masters which means that I see a lot of the same players in every ranked game. There is a group of players that will often play together by queuing up at the same time and use reports as a way to bully single targets. They will recognize your in-game name and continuously push for you to get lynched on day 2 regardless of your role (once I was jailor and they both pushed and guiltied me still even though they both wound up being town roles as well) and then report you for any reason they can. Because they play in a group, they are always able to push through an open report on you even if it is for complete nonsense or no reason at all. They do this so that they can get players put on the judge's "problem player list" from which players are almost always issued a guilty, as the judge who randomly messaged me on Discord informed me. It has happened not just to me, but to other Master ranked players as well who are nice people and usually keep to themselves. What's even worse is that when this situation was brought to the judges' attention, their solution was to "stop playing ranked."

[Grethius]

And when someone sees that kind of bullshit the people that have to read that crap wonder why BMG allows that kind of behavior, they think they allow people on here that are child molesters or child beaters.

Nobody believes that... This is the internet, people make shitty comments, people troll. >99.99% of people who make comments like that are not actual child molesters or child beaters - they're mostly children themselves.

While most likely the case, it is no excuse to give them a punishment for making those comments.

You can't go into an airport or a crowded mall and scream "THERE'S A BOMB!" without suffering the consequences because you are trying to be "edgy", and you can't go around on the internet, or IRL for that matter, and claim that you love to rape women or molest little kids without facing consequences because you are trying to be "edgy." And such comments have absolutely no place on this game.

The decision the devs made to treat references to child pedophilia as a severe offense was made within the last year, and I frankly agree with it. It is one of the most despicable things someone can do to a child, and even referencing it in a joking manner in this game should not be tolerated. Same with rape jokes.

The thing is, you may think it's perfectly fine to make one rape/molestation comment, but you do not realize is that there are people who play the game from all walks of life. I am certain there are quite a few players who have been through being raped or molested, and they remain traumatized by it because it is one of the most traumatic events a person can go through, and many people who have been through it don't seek help to get past it. Seeing some troll make a joke about raping another player or molesting a child is the last thing that person needs to see in a game they are playing for fun.

Not to mention, it's just not funny to joke about it, or make light of it. And this isn't just a whole "Oh, you all are just snowflakes" comment, no it's about being a respectable human being and not being some 17 year old edgelord trying to get a rise out of people.

Rules are rules. Either suck it up and follow them or deal with the consequences.

THIS!!!

This is exactly what Faith and I are talking about.
A buddy of mine stationed in El paso was telling me about some dumbass in his early 20s recently do that in an airport because he thought it was a meme and it was funny, they locked his ass up and labeled him as a terrorist and the jackass is currently serving his time in prison for just making a joke. If you want more examples of this https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/21/us/mass- ... index.html Go ahead and give that a read. and then tell me if context should really be taken into consideration!
An to add to that, some people think its quite okay to spout nazi shit and "SIEG HEIL!" just because it means Hail Victory.. I tell you what, as a Soldier myself, I bet you if anyone walked into a military installation, a VFW, or a VA hospital of any kind and started saying that shit, it will NOT be a good day for you. Your Modern Culture, which you are trying so hard to defend believes that "because its a meme, its okay" let me tell you something, ITS NOT! Grow the fuck up!

Criteria aside, just because someone is not explicitly intending harm when acting in one of these ways does not mean harm is not being caused as a result of their actions. Using this as a reason to avoid a permanent ban would be irresponsible.

Haggis, I very much agree with you on this!

[Grethius]

I agree that the trial system and judges in charge need to be looked into because you are right that in its current state the system is horribly corrupt. If players are only allowed to get 5 punishments over the lifetime over their account, then the judges have to be willing to actually have conversations with the players and to look at situations within a context. But as things are, the judges view all of their rules as black and white and have the attitude to mock the players that they punish without consequences thanks to their position of power within the community. It doesn't help that all of the judges are friends and quickly back each other up even when evidence of an abuse of power exists.

A judge (who I will not name) personally sought me out on Discord to threaten me that they were going to suspend my account the next day. I did not know who this person was, they just started messaging me out of the blue. Then when a suspension did come through, I made an appeal on here to which this judge was not only the first person to deny but then bothered me by sending a paragraph about how I had a guilty conscious for making the appeal to me in my Discord dms (again, I have no clue who this judge was or why they were messaging me so much). When I brought this to the trials server with screenshots, the judge in question claims that they give out these "fair warnings" to players on Discord all the time which is just simply not true because we checked afterwards and I was the only person they threatened with a suspension since May of this year.

On top of this unprofessional-ism of seeking players out and flaunting their power, there is another major issue with the trials system that isn't known to most and it's the fact that the judges have a "problem player list." This list is one that players who have a lot of open reports get put on to expedite the review of their accounts. While in theory this list doesn't sound like a bad idea, it allows for bully groups, particularly in ranked, to have a large amount of influence over the trials system. I am ranked in Masters which means that I see a lot of the same players in every ranked game. There is a group of players that will often play together by queuing up at the same time and use reports as a way to bully single targets. They will recognize your in-game name and continuously push for you to get lynched on day 2 regardless of your role (once I was jailor and they both pushed and guiltied me still even though they both wound up being town roles as well) and then report you for any reason they can. Because they play in a group, they are always able to push through an open report on you even if it is for complete nonsense or no reason at all. They do this so that they can get players put on the judge's "problem player list" from which players are almost always issued a guilty, as the judge who randomly messaged me on Discord informed me. It has happened not just to me, but to other Master ranked players as well who are nice people and usually keep to themselves. What's even worse is that when this situation was brought to the judges' attention, their solution was to "stop playing ranked."

This is some of the funniest bullshit I have ever seen..