Should disguisers be able to deceive sheriffs?

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Should disguisers be able to deceive sheriffs?

Postby Joacgroso » Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:14 pm

I feel like them being able to deceive invests is fine because it takes a bit more of skill since they have to match their claim with a townie, and they have to find a townie with the right role to do that. But simply unframing a mafia member takes no skill and it seems unfair towards sheriffs in my opinion. Sheriffs are already UP, especially in coven where trackers are better than them in every aspect, but with this feature they can't find evils even if they make a good read. It seems a bit excessive.

What are your thoughts?
I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Should disguisers be able to deceive sheriffs?

Postby alex1234321 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:22 pm

Disguiser isn't very strong right now and this would remove most of its utility. Most of the time Mafia roles can claim within their Investigator results without too much difficulty, so it's not very useful for that. Deceiving Lookouts can be useful, but the main purpose of Disguiser is to help Mafia members who are under suspicion, and deceiving Sheriff is far more direct. Sheriff should be buffed by letting it see more roles. I'm okay with keeping Godfather immune, but Witch and possibly Executioner should be detectable.
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Re: Should disguisers be able to deceive sheriffs?

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:53 pm

alex1234321 wrote:Disguiser isn't very strong right now and this would remove most of its utility. Most of the time Mafia roles can claim within their Investigator results without too much difficulty, so it's not very useful for that. Deceiving Lookouts can be useful, but the main purpose of Disguiser is to help Mafia members who are under suspicion, and deceiving Sheriff is far more direct. Sheriff should be buffed by letting it see more roles. I'm okay with keeping Godfather immune, but Witch and possibly Executioner should be detectable.


the problem with exe is that it can turn jest, and jest obviusly needs detection inmunity


another problem with exe is its perma basic def, it should be scumshield like witch, because if you make a bad play and vigi shoots you then you should die
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Re: Should disguisers be able to deceive sheriffs?

Postby alex1234321 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:10 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:Disguiser isn't very strong right now and this would remove most of its utility. Most of the time Mafia roles can claim within their Investigator results without too much difficulty, so it's not very useful for that. Deceiving Lookouts can be useful, but the main purpose of Disguiser is to help Mafia members who are under suspicion, and deceiving Sheriff is far more direct. Sheriff should be buffed by letting it see more roles. I'm okay with keeping Godfather immune, but Witch and possibly Executioner should be detectable.


the problem with exe is that it can turn jest, and jest obviusly needs detection inmunity


another problem with exe is its perma basic def, it should be scumshield like witch, because if you make a bad play and vigi shoots you then you should die


Mafioso gains detection immunity when it becomes Godfather, so I don't see why that would be bad for Executioner.

Yeah I agree with you about the scumshield.
Last edited by alex1234321 on Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should disguisers be able to deceive sheriffs?

Postby Joacgroso » Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:31 pm

Maybe disguiser isn't a very strong role, but sheriffs aren't strong either and I don't really think they deserve to be nerfed that hard. Isn't countering spies the main purpose of disguisers, anyway? I know saying that is kinda pointless since hardcounters are bad, but it would be cool if sheriffs were good at something (when I say "hardcounter", I mean disguisers).

With the current rolelist, I think seeing witches as suspicious would be cool. They should also be killable by vigilantes. I'm not sure about executioners. They are not a high priority target, and jester promotion is a thing as syjfwbaobfwl pointed out. It's different from a mafioso promotion because a promotion could give the jester the win if they were checked the night their target died.

I'm also not sure about removing exe's defense. This will make it hard for them if their target is a vigilante, or maybe a transporter. Also, it would ruin their reward after winning, provided that the jailor doesn't kill them. I feel like winning only to be shot the next night isn't very satisfying. Basic defense also allows them to kingmake against mafia more easily, which favors NKs (though I guess it also favors townies in some way).
I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Should disguisers be able to deceive sheriffs?

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:18 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:Disguiser isn't very strong right now and this would remove most of its utility. Most of the time Mafia roles can claim within their Investigator results without too much difficulty, so it's not very useful for that. Deceiving Lookouts can be useful, but the main purpose of Disguiser is to help Mafia members who are under suspicion, and deceiving Sheriff is far more direct. Sheriff should be buffed by letting it see more roles. I'm okay with keeping Godfather immune, but Witch and possibly Executioner should be detectable.


the problem with exe is that it can turn jest, and jest obviusly needs detection inmunity


another problem with exe is its perma basic def, it should be scumshield like witch, because if you make a bad play and vigi shoots you then you should die


Mafioso gains detection immunity when it becomes Godfather, so I don't see why that would be bad for Executioner.

Yeah I agree with you about the scumshield.


Because you get checked by sheriff when your target dies, you are jester and come up as sus
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Re: Should disguisers be able to deceive sheriffs?

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:22 pm

Anyway, back to topic, there are 3 options

1: make less roles have detection inmunity

2: rework sheriff, keep the same concept of being a role which vaguely tells you if your target is town or not

3: dont allow disg to unframe


Imo 3 is the least profitable one, disg is a good role, but removing its ability to decieve sheriff suddenly reduces a lot its utility


1 is good but im not a fan of it, sheriff should need sighly more skill, it is a very simple role and its not a bad role, but it can for sure be improved a lot

So 2 seems like the best option for me, the problem is, I dont have any ideas


Actually I will think about a rework for sheriff
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Re: Should disguisers be able to deceive sheriffs?

Postby Joacgroso » Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:10 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:1 is good but im not a fan of it, sheriff should need sighly more skill, it is a very simple role and its not a bad role, but it can for sure be improved a lot

Doesn't sheriff require the same skill as investigator or tracker? Just look for someone suspicious and visit them. The game will tell them wheter they are evil or not, though they can be deceived in certain situations. The only difference is that investigators have to ask their target for a claim and trackers have to ask for a will, but I don't think that's a significant difference in skill.
I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Should disguisers be able to deceive sheriffs?

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:15 pm

Joacgroso wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:1 is good but im not a fan of it, sheriff should need sighly more skill, it is a very simple role and its not a bad role, but it can for sure be improved a lot

Doesn't sheriff require the same skill as investigator or tracker? Just look for someone suspicious and visit them. The game will tell them wheter they are evil or not, though they can be deceived in certain situations. The only difference is that investigators have to ask their target for a claim and trackers have to ask for a will, but I don't think that's a significant difference in skill.


The thing is that sheriff is way too....flat? I think thats the word

You can only get 2 results, and as you said, as tracker or invest you have to do something besides checking someone in order to make your ability more effective
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Re: Should disguisers be able to deceive sheriffs?

Postby Joacgroso » Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:19 pm

Yeah, but I really don't think asking for a role and a will is significantly harder. A role being simple isn't something bad in my opinion.
I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Should disguisers be able to deceive sheriffs?

Postby Dragnier » Sun May 09, 2021 1:27 pm

Trying to imagine the roles, I can picture on my mind a Disguiser applying a disguise onto someone, thus fooling an Investigator that is investigating that target.
On the other end, I can't picture a Disguiser fooling a Sheriff. A Sheriff is meant to Interrogate his target. You can apply the best disguise, but unless a player is a clever lier, it would be hard for them to fool a Sheriff that is interrogating him.
By this, I think it makes senses that a Sheriff isn't fooled by a disguised player.
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Re: Should disguisers be able to deceive sheriffs?

Postby Joacgroso » Sun May 09, 2021 4:03 pm

We can't justify balance changes with lore, though. Especially considering framers can already fool sheriffs and jesters can't.
I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Should disguisers be able to deceive sheriffs?

Postby Dragnier » Sun May 09, 2021 5:28 pm

Joacgroso wrote:We can't justify balance changes with lore, though. Especially considering framers can already fool sheriffs and jesters can't.


Framer has a desire to deceive, that is why he can fool the Sheriff. On the other end the Jester is pretty harmless to others, he mainly want to convince them to lynch him. He can fool others, but not a Sheriff if he interrogates him.

Classes need to be balanced, and while doing it they should try to remain consistent with lore (as much as possible).
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Re: Should disguisers be able to deceive sheriffs?

Postby Joacgroso » Sun May 09, 2021 5:51 pm

No matter how much of a desire a framer has to deceive, how could he possibly make his target suspicious when a sheriff is interrogating them? It's not like he can control what his target says.
Jesters on the other hand would definitely confess/hide their actual alibi if they were being interrogated by a sheriff.

It doesn't really make sense that sheriffs "interrogate" people, that's what I was trying to say. So saying that disguisers shouldn't fool sheriffs because a disguise doesn't really affect an interrogation doesn't matter.
I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Should disguisers be able to deceive sheriffs?

Postby SilverCruz » Sun May 09, 2021 7:59 pm

The easiest way to fix Disguiser is to just make it completely invisible to Spies. Still feels kind of like an obtuse hard counter, but it stops being able to sabotage its own team by the town just knowing that it exists.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Should disguisers be able to deceive sheriffs?

Postby Dragnier » Mon May 10, 2021 9:20 am

Joacgroso wrote:No matter how much of a desire a framer has to deceive, how could he possibly make his target suspicious when a sheriff is interrogating them? It's not like he can control what his target says.


Touche :D
You got me on that one.

Joacgroso wrote:Jesters on the other hand would definitely confess/hide their actual alibi if they were being interrogated by a sheriff.


Probably a Sheriff can realize he is lying to him.

Joacgroso wrote:It doesn't really make sense that sheriffs "interrogate" people, that's what I was trying to say. So saying that disguisers shouldn't fool sheriffs because a disguise doesn't really affect an interrogation doesn't matter.


Agree, maybe "interrogate" wasn't the best verb, and "investigate" was already taken. At some point we will need to combine or rework several TIs roles, maybe combine Sheriff and Investigator into a single role.
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Re: Should disguisers be able to deceive sheriffs?

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Mon May 10, 2021 10:43 am

Dragnier wrote:Trying to imagine the roles, I can picture on my mind a Disguiser applying a disguise onto someone, thus fooling an Investigator that is investigating that target.
On the other end, I can't picture a Disguiser fooling a Sheriff. A Sheriff is meant to Interrogate his target. You can apply the best disguise, but unless a player is a clever lier, it would be hard for them to fool a Sheriff that is interrogating him.
By this, I think it makes senses that a Sheriff isn't fooled by a disguised player.


wording on the message is what makes it fine


"You cannot find evidence of wrongdoing. Your target seems innocent.


which means he not only interrogates, he also checks for scummy things, reason why he finds jester as innocent, probably he answers things that a mafia member would, but sheriff sees nothing that would incriminate them
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Re: Should disguisers be able to deceive sheriffs?

Postby Joacgroso » Mon May 10, 2021 12:04 pm

Honestly, besides the fact that the ability is called "interrogation", there's no reason to believe that sheriffs interrogate people. Everything they do lines up with them just checking the house. This makes sense lorewise, since the sheriff is suposedly undercover. Also, sheriff is the only role that directly interacts with its target without giving them any sort of message (see: jailor, escort, trans, killers, etc).
I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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