Beneath the Turnstone Peaks - Cancelled :(

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Re: Beneath the Turnstone Peaks - Intermission 1

Postby squosher » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:48 pm

DJVoxel wrote: Spoiler:
squosher wrote:Honestly i'm kinda struggling with finding the right pace. I'm never sure when people don't respond to something whether it's because I haven't given enough time or that they don't want to respond. I feel like I'm guessing at the moment so if the people playing think i'm going to quickly (or slowly) please tell me.

When it comes to the combat I think I can speed things up a bit, by doing player's turns in parallel like I did on the last turn of the combat.

Also just a moment to appreciate how Scorpio deleting his account broke all my links by making the post numbering really buggy. Anyone know what happened with him?


I think the main issue right now is you're actually not going fast enough. You're attempting to create character interaction when most of it that people wanted to do was already done at the very beginning.

For example:

squosher wrote:You return to the cart and continue your journey through the forest. After 20 minutes or so the road opens out, exposing a river crossing under the road followed by an upwards slope climbing between the two closest hills. You can see the rays of the evening sun fall on the trees behind you, your own position eclipsed by the slope ahead. Urdur speaks again.

"Its just up here. You'll see it shortly."


Why pause here for the characters to react? There's nothing to react to. It should have been combined with the next post:

squosher wrote:As you say this, the caravan completes the majority of the climb and you find yourself looking at a sunset over a small mining town. Amongst the buildings there are a few groups of townsfolk in conversation but in the most part the town is empty.

"Welcome to Harrowhill."


And even here, I would have either given a larger, more verbose description to instill a sense of wonder and beauty, as otherwise there is nothing to react to, or just combined it with:

squosher wrote:As you get into the town. Urdur directs you to Harrowhills sole tavern, the Hidden Pig Inn. And then parts ways with you for now.

"I'll just make the arrangements for the wagons, get some rest. Tomorrow is the same arrangement as always, meet outside at the usual time if you are still heading with us. See you all later."

-----


The Inn isn't fancy but is well kept. It has a bar area with a separate dining area to the side. As you enter it is fairly empty, the only people inside being the innkeeper and presumably one of the regulars. The inkeeper is a blond haired dwarven man who is currently behind the bar. The other person, at in the corner of the room with a drink, is a male elf who is looks old, even for someone with some elven heritage.

(edit: Clarify wording to remove the long confusing sentence and make it clear that there were only two people in the room, the barman and the elven regular.)


And this post chooses to take an opportunity to react away from the players. As soon as they arrive, the players should be allowed to explore the town however they want, not be forced to immediately head to the inn. Heck, my character probably wouldn't touch the inn if he can find a temple of Lux in the area because he can just mooch off their resources, but I wasn't given the opportunity. I know you want to give the players their quest hook in the tavern, but if that was the case, either start them in the tavern, with a brief description of the events leading up to their arrival in town and why they're all together instead of railroading the plot.

Heck, because you railroaded us like this, to me, at least, it feels like that initial setup and combat with the goblins was meaningless because we could have just started in the tavern. I was expecting to be able to wander around town and learn about the personal struggles of the townsfolk, the the rumors going around and that would be the plot hook.

---

Which brings me to the second main issue: The plot hook is too vague and has no stakes.

squosher wrote:"I don't know what exactly, but something strange is going on in Harrowhill. Strange things have been happening here. People leaving town at unusual times times, people going missing without explanation, rumors of curses and haunting.

All i'm saying is that something is up, and I need someone to find out what it is."


Here, you don't give us an indication of what the guy wants us to do in very clear terms. Because he says "Strange things have been happening here. People leaving town at unusual times times, people going missing without explanation, rumors of curses and haunting.", which is 3 different plot hooks rolled into one with no action word to tell the players what to do with the information, followed by "something is up, and I need someone to find out what it is." which still doesn't give your players any immediate goal.

You do remedy this somewhat in the next post:

squosher wrote:"I know its a lot to ask of strangers, but would you mind staying here for a few days and trying to figure out what is going on around town and what happened to the missing people."

"I will not charge you anything for staying here longer, and I'm sure I can put together a reward for once you get back to me."

"What do you think?"

-----


(Bump)


"figure out what is going on around town and what happened to the missing people." helps to clarify the goal a bit, but still doesn't give any stakes and is still fairly vague.

Your next post, once we've accepted the job, which is still vague and uninteresting due to a lack of clarity and stakes, finally clears things up:

squosher wrote:"Good, well If you need somewhere to start you could always talk to Dornan Lorren, he was friends with one of the miners who went missing. You could also ask around town or talk to Lyra Morningfall at the general goods store, she generally knows what's going on around town."


Literally, all you had to have him say to give the players a clear goal and stakes is the following: "The miners are going missing. It's hurting the town's main livelihood. If nothing happens soon then people will have to leave the town to find work elsewhere. I need you to find the miners. I'll pay you."

This gives a clear goal: Find the Miners
Clear stakes: The townsfolk will be forced to leave
and a reward: Money

If you don't want it to be just the miners that are missing, then give the quest giver a personal stake in the matter. "My daughter/friend/spouse/co-worker is one of the missing people. Find them."

This also sets up a clear goal and clear stakes.

What you gave us is passable. It works. But it's hard to drive the player and their characters to do something vague, especially if there are no clear stakes around what will happen if the players choose to not accept or fail the request.

---

Everything else thus far is fine, despite the few kinks we had in the combat encounter. I feel like once we get out and into the swing of things with questioning NPCs, combat encounters and dungeon exploration, things will clear up a bit, and I still want to commend you for taking the plunge to DM on the forums. It doesn't help that scorpio's account got snapped and that some of the players have been inactive, but I think things will only get better from here.

It may help to set up a "session time" so that we can schedule an hour, hour and a half, etc. during our day to really focus on playing, because then we can have fast reactions to what we've written, instead of feeling like we're not getting anywhere due to the long wait times between responses.


First of all, thanks for the constructive criticism, I don't quite agree with everything you've said but you have made a lot of good points.

I think a lot of the problems come from things which translate badly from an IRL format to this format. For example with the pauses in dialogue, if it were a game IRL, players would want to respond to what the NPC was saying in more back and forth manner, and ask about the relevant information themselves. This doesn't seem to carry as well in a text conversation and it seems that it would work better If I gave the information which the NPC wants to tell you in one go rather than waiting for responses.

Similarly with the description of the journey, in a game IRL, players would want a continuous description of what happens, and each step might provoke a small discussion or a remark about something. I don't think that works as well because its more effort to say something on here and therefore people don't want to go through all that effort to make a passing remark.

What I believe you are saying overall with this is that I need to skip over parts where the players have little choice in what to do or say rather than waiting for input, in order to speed things up. If I am understanding correctly then I agree with you.

-----


I also I agree with your point on stakes, which unfortunately perhaps the most difficult to rectify in the short term.

While I would argue that there is a clear goal (I think find out what happened to the miners is a clear enough goal in yourself), I agree that there is not nearly enough to enough incentive for the players to want to find out what happened. The whole "They are the reason the town exists and without them, we are nothing." was in my head but yeah I did a very shitty job at conveying that.

-----


When it comes to you saying you were railroaded to go into the tavern I think that's a little unfair.

Compare that to the one other situation where it was more open ended, the section after the fight and the short chase. I was expecting you to do some things after that fight, perhaps talk to some of the people who's caravan was being attacked, enquire about what was stolen, ect. I was a little surprised when other than healing up a little nobody really did anything and then you responded "Not exactly sure what you are waiting for, squosher".

After that, I assumed that a similar thing would happened if I asked you what to do when you got into town, so I skipped what I thought would be a pause that would just annoy people. I realise I was wrong to do that now.

-----


You could be right about setting aside a specific time to play in, what do other people think about that?

-----


So what I've got from this is:
  • Describe unimportant things less
  • Describe more important things and describe them in greater detail
  • Give out more details in one go
  • Set more significant stakes
  • Never sacrifice player agency for speed
Is that about right?
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Re: Beneath the Turnstone Peaks - Intermission 1

Postby DJVoxel » Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:02 pm

squosher wrote:Compare that to the one other situation where it was more open ended, the section after the fight and the short chase. I was expecting you to do some things after that fight, perhaps talk to some of the people who's caravan was being attacked, enquire about what was stolen, ect. I was a little surprised when other than healing up a little nobody really did anything and then you responded "Not exactly sure what you are waiting for, squosher".


Personally, I only usually speak to NPCs to further either the main objective, or a personal objective my character has or they seem interesting to me based on their description. But that doesn't have much to do with my point.

To clarify:

We had two options after the combat scenario:
A) Continue to town
Or B) Chase down the goblins.

Then we lost the trail of the goblins so we didn't really have the option to go after them and since we only had one option remaining, I didn't see why it was necessary to delay any further. There may have been a tracker amongst the NPCs, but I didn't know and didn't care because they weren't described and I figured they were throwaway characters.

With the town, there are multiple shops and homes all within close proximity of each other, giving players plenty of options of where they want to go next. Some might be looking to buy some equipment, some might be looking for food, drink and lodging.

But rather than present us with our options, you simply picked the one that you deemed the most important.

Tl;dr In the first scenario there was only one course of action remaining, so I felt as though the game should have simply progressed automatically.
In the second scenario there were options as to our next course of action, but you stripped us of our agency by choosing one for us.
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Re: Beneath the Turnstone Peaks - Intermission 1

Postby squosher » Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:29 pm

DJVoxel wrote:Personally, I only usually speak to NPCs to further either the main objective, or a personal objective my character has.

We had two options after the combat scenario:
A) Continue to town
Or B) Chase down the goblins.

Then we lost the trail of the goblins so we didn't really have the option to go after them and since we only had one option remaining, I didn't see why it was necessary to delay any further. There may have been a tracker amongst the NPCs, but I didn't know and didn't care because they weren't described and I figured they were throwaway characters.

With the town, there are multiple shops and homes all within close proximity of each other, giving players plenty of options of where they want to go next. Some might be looking to buy some equipment, some might be looking for food, drink and lodging.

But rather than present us with our options, you simply picked the one that you deemed the most important.

Tl;dr In the first scenario there was only one course of action remaining, so I felt as though the game should have simply progressed automatically.
In the second scenario there were options as to our next course of action, but you stripped us of our agency by choosing one for us.


I was seeing it more in terms of how likely the group was likely to take a specific course of action, based on my experiences with other groups. I was expecting you to do ask around more after the fight. I wasn't expecting you to want to wander about town. I was clearly wrong about that.

I do want to make this clear though, it was an attempt to save time, not an attempt to force the plot or anything.

It would make no difference to me if you wanted to walk around town, I just felt like everyone wanted me to hurry up so I assumed you did what I expected you to do anyway.

What I'm trying to say is I guess wrongly I saw it as the opposite to your tldr. In the first scenario I felt there were multiple things you might reasonably do. In the second, to me there seemed only one course of action that you might choose if asked.
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Re: Beneath the Turnstone Peaks - Intermission 1

Postby squosher » Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:30 am

So on top of wanting to know what people think of picking a specific time for everyone to try to be online on, there's a few other things I wanted to mention.

Whatsuppeople is making a character and once that's is done I will find an opportunity at some point to bring their character into the story.

I still would like more feedback on how I can do better so if you have something to say that hasn't been said yet feel free.

Due to the discussion earlier I will probably somewhat retcon a section of the discussion where you were told about the miner's disappearances to be more clear and provide more direction and post the amended version here.

Whilst you have been given some leads you can follow, this next section will still probably be quite open ended so you might want to think to yourselves about what you might want to do in advance.

It might be a little while until the next chapter starts because I want to get some deadlines for other things out the way first. I will probably start it next weekend (as opposed to this weekend) but that time may move if needed.
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Re: Beneath the Turnstone Peaks - Intermission 1

Postby squosher » Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:34 am

Pushing the date to continue back by a week because I have a lot of work to do at the moment and I need more prep time.

Also whatsuppeople, I haven't forgotten about you, I'll get back to you soon.
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Re: Beneath the Turnstone Peaks - Intermission 1

Postby squosher » Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:19 am

Right, its about time I made a post here, hopefully you are all still around.

I am sorry about the delay, I had a really busy few weeks. I'm still really busy, but there is only so long I can put this off, so I plan to resume this ASAP.

So, there is a number of things I feel like I need to mention before I start:

  • Firstly, I want to make sure that you are all still around, so I would like everyone to post something on the thread to let me know you are still here. I will begin sending PMs to the people who haven't posted a bit later to remind them that this exists.
  • Secondly, the planned start time is 5pm GMT saturday, or whenever every player has posted on the thread, whichever comes the latest.
  • Currently my plan for getting more activity is just to say everyone try to be around at 5-6PM gmt, and things will still go on for the whole day but will focus around that time. If you want me to go for a more strict expected posting time, please post in the thread now.
  • There will be a map for harrowhill and that will appear with the rest of the stuff in the opening post.
  • whatsuppeople, I'll start writing the next character creation update as soon as I finish this post. I don't plan to introduce you at the start of this chapter, more likely you will appear later in this chaper or in the chapter aftewards, but we will find a place to fit you ing
  • I'm going to retcon the really badly worded post from before to put it a little bit better:
    Spoiler:
    squosher wrote:"I don't know what exactly, but something strange is going on in Harrowhill. Strange things have been happening here. People leaving town at unusual times times, people going missing without explanation, rumors of curses and haunting.

    All i'm saying is that something is up, and I need someone to find out what it is."


    to

    squosher wrote:"I don't know what exactly, but something strange is going on in Harrowhill. A week ago, Arin Farlight, the head of one of our mining operations, died in an accident. Since then, miners involved in the operation have been disappearing.

    Over the last few days, six miners have gone missing in total. These miners are Harrowhills livelihood. I don't know what we would do without them.

    Please, find out what happened to these miners."
  • Finally I just want to say, thanks for your patience, I hope you are all well, and I look forward to continuing the game with you.
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Re: Beneath the Turnstone Peaks - Intermission 1

Postby TheLastEvangelist » Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:57 am

I'm here
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Re: Beneath the Turnstone Peaks - Intermission 1

Postby sunfirejr » Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:11 pm

gamer time
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Re: Beneath the Turnstone Peaks - Intermission 1

Postby DJVoxel » Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:12 pm

:thumbs_up:

Sorry if I was a bit harsh in my criticism earlier.
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Re: Beneath the Turnstone Peaks - Intermission 1

Postby squosher » Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:16 am

DJVoxel wrote::thumbs_up:

Sorry if I was a bit harsh in my criticism earlier.


No, don't worry. It was helpful.
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Re: Beneath the Turnstone Peaks - Intermission 1

Postby squosher » Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:58 am

PMed Blue and cupcake, hopefully they will see it.
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Re: Beneath the Turnstone Peaks - Intermission 1

Postby squosher » Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:19 am

Still waiting for those two. Just wanted to add, from this point forward we'll be using the correct movement rules rather than what I thought was the correct movement rules.
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Re: Beneath the Turnstone Peaks - Intermission 1

Postby squosher » Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:55 am

I've added the map of the town and the list of relevant NPCs to the OP now to make it easier to think about what you want to do in advance. I will update both of these as you discover or hear of new characters and locations.
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Re: Beneath the Turnstone Peaks - Intermission 1

Postby cupcakeaj2 » Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:50 am

oK here
Spoiler: Repertoire

Mad Scientist

Prophet

Blacksmith

Anonymous

Forum Mafia Games:

ALL:

5 - 6 - 2

TOWN:

3 - 4 - 1

MAFIA:

2 - 3 - 0

OTHER:

0 - 0 - 1
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Re: Beneath the Turnstone Peaks - Intermission 1

Postby BRVR » Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:04 pm

(posting for easy access I love dnd despite me only playing like 2 turns in a game of it once.)
THE GREAT KIJAH IS BACK AND IS HERE TO STAY!
I AM OPEN TO MAKING NEW FRIENDS TO FILL THE VOID IN MY HEART OF SADNESS!
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Re: Beneath the Turnstone Peaks - Intermission 1

Postby squosher » Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:24 am

I'll give it until friday then we will start without blue. (5pm GMT as usual)

BRVR, do you want to play or are you just spectating this?
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Re: Beneath the Turnstone Peaks - Intermission 1

Postby BRVR » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:07 am

squosher wrote:I'll give it until friday then we will start without blue. (5pm GMT as usual)

BRVR, do you want to play or are you just spectating this?

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
YA SURE
JUST UH
forgot how to make a character thingy.
Brb gonna make one
Cuz...
Ya.
THE GREAT KIJAH IS BACK AND IS HERE TO STAY!
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Re: Beneath the Turnstone Peaks - Intermission 1

Postby squosher » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:24 am

Okay, I'll add you to the list, PM me when you are finished with your character, or if you have any questions.
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Re: Beneath the Turnstone Peaks - Intermission 1

Postby squosher » Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:14 am

Quick reminder to everyone in the game that this is continuing tomorrow.
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Re: Beneath the Turnstone Peaks - Intermission 1

Postby squosher » Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:19 am

One more reminder that chapter 1 starts in less than 2 hours. If you are not currently in the game, please don't post in the thread when the game is going on.

This next bit is going to be quite open-ended, so you might want to think about what to do in advance. Remember that you don't have to follow the leads given by Lukhal, you could take your own approach to the investigation, or even spend some time doing something completely unrelated to the investigation if you feel like your character might.

Also, if you feel I'm waiting for a response that doesn't exist please tell me and if all the players are continuously being indecisive about what to do, feel free to declare an action for the whole group.
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Re: Beneath the Turnstone Peaks - Chapter 1

Postby squosher » Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:00 am

Size 1 text to push title down
Chapter 1 - Death of a Miner


Relevant Maps:

Spoiler:
    Local Map - The town of Harrowhill (Blue are locations, Red are where characters live/work)

    Image

    Local Map - West Side of Harrowhill



Relevant NPCs:

Spoiler:
    Dornan Lorren - Miner

      He is a miner and was friends with one of the miners that went missing. You have yet to meet him.

    Lyra Morningfall - Runs General Goods Store

      She runs the general goods store and, according to Lukhal, knows a lot about the goings on around town. You have yet to meet her.

    Lukhal Hardcloak - Barkeep

      He is a Dwarf barkeep in the Hidden Pig Inn. He asked you to find out what happened to the missing miners.


The story so far

Spoiler: For various reasons of your own, you have found yourself journeying towards the east of the continent, along the mountainfoot path. Near the end of one of the legs of your journey, you had a chance encounter with a group of hobgoblins attacking a merchant caravan. You killed the hobgoblin leader and defeated the hobgoblins, in the process discovering that some of them had strange, exotic weapons which coated themselves in poison. You received thanks from the merchant in the caravan, and then traveled the remainder of the way to Harrowhill, arriving at about duskfall.

Upon arriving in Harrowhill, you went to the tavern, and were greeted by the inkeep, Lukhal Hardcloak. After making arrangements for your board for the night, he pleaded with you to investigate the strange disappearances of the miners who lived in the town. He gave you some suggestions of where you might start, namely Dornan Lorren - a miner who’s friend had gone missing, and Lyra Morningfall - a good source of information about the gossip around town.


---


You wake to the sound of birdsong as rays of bright sunlight stream through the window. Few clouds drift across the morning sky and it looks like the day is going to be pleasant, even if the matter at hand is not.

You go through your morning routine and eventually make your way to the downstairs, where you are immediately met by the smell of cooking bacon. As you gather together and discuss what you plan to do over a large cooked breakfast, you can’t help but feel some optimism for the day ahead.


You may now post.
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Re: Beneath the Turnstone Peaks - Cancelled :(

Postby squosher » Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:40 am

This is a lost cause, isn't it.

Frustrating, but given the lack of posting this clearly isn't going to work so I guess I will declare this experiment over.

For anyone reading this who plans on doing something similar, definitely the hardest part is balancing the numbers. Too many people and combat will take ages, too few people and there isn't enough activity. I think I hit the spot in the middle where both were true. I think if I was doing this again (which I definitely won't be) I would preselect a group of people from the forums who all know each other and who I know would be active.

I think the other major problem was that the effort threshold to post is so high that people generally won't spend effort to look at specific things or ask questions to NPCs. I think this puts a lot of the effort into the DM and a lot of the time I felt like I was being made to tell a story rather than DMing a Dnd game.

Surprisingly enough, it seemed like combat was the only thing which did work in the forum, despite me expecting it not to. That said, it was slower and the lack of ability to interrupt the DM as a player makes reactions difficult, and I was definitely struggling to remember reactions taken in advance.

Overall I don't think it worked that well and some of that was how I set it up and ran it and some of that was unsolvable due to the medium.

Anyway, thanks everyone who participated. Sorry to everyone that I had to cancel this. Especially the people still making characters.

I'll lock this tomorrow so the admins can move it to the correct subforum. If anyone has anything to add before then, please do.
I usually go by Stereokuma in-game.

I am Nathan in DR-XXIII.

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squosher
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