Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

[kookeekwisp]

Arsonist isn't the problem.
You should be addressing the glaring OP tank of destruction that shows no mercy. JAILOR!!!

[quicksilver020]

I believe the only change/buff the Arso should receive is the ability to douse every one in a room. Similar to the werewolf that kills everyone that visits him or who he visits. That way he will be able to douse more people faster and potentially have a surviving chance.

[awsomesauce7]

i think arsonists should make their kills burned, like cleaned but u cant even click on it and no role appears in the graveyard

[timekid200]

Do both changes

[Myersvandalay]

Arsonist isn't the problem.
You should be addressing the glaring OP tank of destruction that shows no mercy. JAILOR!!!

because no nerf would ever survive a poll. No matter how OP the role.

[kookeekwisp]

Arsonist isn't the problem.
You should be addressing the glaring OP tank of destruction that shows no mercy. JAILOR!!!

because no nerf would ever survive a poll. No matter how OP the role.

Hasn't there only been 2 polls so far?

[HereThereEverywhere]

Hasn't there only been 2 polls so far?

And one of them demonstrated exactly why polls don't work.

[kookeekwisp]

Hasn't there only been 2 polls so far?

And one of them demonstrated exactly why polls don't work.

...Gonna be a bit more specific.
If you're gonna pull a Vampire & judge an entire category on 1 aspect, you're gonna need it.

[HereThereEverywhere]

...Gonna be a bit more specific.
If you're gonna pull a Vampire & judge an entire category on 1 aspect, you're gonna need it.

The Spy poll showed exactly why the community cannot handle polls, because that role needs the nerf and oh look, the community said no. What we need is a discussion, not people voting without some sort of reason because "Arsonist sucks"

[kookeekwisp]

...Gonna be a bit more specific.
If you're gonna pull a Vampire & judge an entire category on 1 aspect, you're gonna need it.

The Spy poll showed exactly why the community cannot handle polls, because that role needs the nerf and oh look, the community said no. What we need is a discussion, not people voting without some sort of reason because "Arsonist sucks"

That looks a lot more like a minority complaint than an actual argument.
Like i said, one single poll is not enough to make excuses for why your way is best.

[Myersvandalay]

...Gonna be a bit more specific.
If you're gonna pull a Vampire & judge an entire category on 1 aspect, you're gonna need it.

The Spy poll showed exactly why the community cannot handle polls, because that role needs the nerf and oh look, the community said no. What we need is a discussion, not people voting without some sort of reason because "Arsonist sucks"

That looks a lot more like a minority complaint than an actual argument.
Like i said, one single poll is not enough to make excuses for why your way is best.

The complaint on the spy poll was the way the results were. If there were 1/10th as many reasoned arguements for opposing the change, as there were reasoned arguements for it, I'd have been very fine conceeding that my opinion was a minority.

On the other hand, Everyone who mentioned playing it on the test server, was in favor of the change. There were at least 15-20 people with long detailed explanations for why there should be a nerf.

There was... maybe 1 post opposed to the nerf that actually had reasoned arguements that were not either just "NO" with no explanation, or flat out factually wrong statements "Mafia always wins" in the face of 10-15 statistical collections showing towns winrate at 70-80%. The level of difference, pretty strongly implies to me that any change that is likely to lower towns winrate, is most likely doomed from the getgo.

[PirateCaptain]

Stop!

If you voted the first option, please read this.

tl;dr These changes give the arsonist more cover, which it really needs.

The arsonist is the weakest role in the game (has the least wins) because it kills the slowest, and doesn't have anything to help it.

While I agree with both changes, I don't agree that arsonist is the weakest role, that would probably be the survivor, executioner, jester, or maybe framer. The arsonist can kill as fast as the werewolf depending on the werewolf's personal luck, and two arsonists can kill rapidly (if we're not counting other roles' involvement in judging the role, then surely the disguiser is the weakest role, by far) and can easily decimate even immune roles like the Godfather and Serial Killer.

[HereThereEverywhere]

Jester, Executioner, and Survivor are strong enough, there's nothing wrong with them. Survivor especially. People who want to buff any of these three really don't understand what it is they're saying, it's like buffing the Serial Killer because you don't win as it often.
Framer is a bit weak, yeah.
Disguiser isn't completely terrible anymore.

[Julien8080]

Jester, Executioner, and Survivor are strong enough, there's nothing wrong with them. Survivor especially. People who want to buff any of these three really don't understand what it is they're saying, it's like buffing the Serial Killer because you don't win as it often.
Framer is a bit weak, yeah.
Disguiser isn't completely terrible anymore.

SK needs to be buffed, though. Not directly, sure, but the role-list and other roles should be changed to at least give it a decent chance.

Framer is counter-productive when it comes to Spies, confirming their target as non-Mafia. It hardly ever manages to fool Sheriffs and Investigators, too.

I can agree with Disguiser, it badly needed a buff, but I don't like this change that much. Its only function while living is to mess with Investigators and confirm targets as non-Mafia to Spy. To be really useful, it has to die. All we really needed was Mroz4k's idea, anyway. The idea of messing with the graveyard is a great one, and it has much better applications elsewhere. It just doesn't belong with Disguiser.

[Julien8080]

Well, old Disguiser regardless of what came with it was fundamentally broken, so no. Typing styles shouldn't be a part of the game.

I don't argue that Disguiser with Mroz's change would be somewhat broken. I'd still like it better than the one we have now, though. It's a hard-counter to Investigator, and it doesn't have any function beyond that besides one that you must die for.

[kookeekwisp]

...Gonna be a bit more specific.
If you're gonna pull a Vampire & judge an entire category on 1 aspect, you're gonna need it.

The Spy poll showed exactly why the community cannot handle polls, because that role needs the nerf and oh look, the community said no. What we need is a discussion, not people voting without some sort of reason because "Arsonist sucks"

That looks a lot more like a minority complaint than an actual argument.
Like i said, one single poll is not enough to make excuses for why your way is best.

The complaint on the spy poll was the way the results were. If there were 1/10th as many reasoned arguements for opposing the change, as there were reasoned arguements for it, I'd have been very fine conceeding that my opinion was a minority.

On the other hand, Everyone who mentioned playing it on the test server, was in favor of the change. There were at least 15-20 people with long detailed explanations for why there should be a nerf.

There was... maybe 1 post opposed to the nerf that actually had reasoned arguements that were not either just "NO" with no explanation, or flat out factually wrong statements "Mafia always wins" in the face of 10-15 statistical collections showing towns winrate at 70-80%. The level of difference, pretty strongly implies to me that any change that is likely to lower towns winrate, is most likely doomed from the getgo.

Oh i know why people said no on the spy poll. It's garbage as it is! Nobody whispers, No mafia talk, and their only visits are a constant and a victim, getting you NOWHERE; Without hearing Mafia chat, it's an even bigger pile of crap than it is now, and you'd be removing one of the ONLY main attributes that it has. To top it off, almost all people with reasons to say no want the role removed altogether. (i'm on team keeps :3)

If by Test server you mean "The Testing Grounds", that place is ABYSMAL for testing. When you see the Changelog & the player list, they're no longer playing ToS anymore. (or anything remotely close for that matter :/)
Here's an idea for a testing environment: Since testing an element requires an identical copy in order to have accurate results, Let's change several aspects of the game, have the engine run by a single person instead of the one from the actual game, and make it known to only a couple of MLG pro players to make results as inaccurate as possible.

And like i said before, Arsonist isn't the problem. Escort and Sheriff can't find him, he's completely immune to Doctor & Night immunity, and he has the power to destroy an entire Town with a click of a button; If Arsonist gets any more "cover", he would be the second strongest role in the game! If any NK role needs a buff, it's Serial Killer. Sure it can kill every night, but it has no other strategy than just randomly attacking people. Escort, Sheriff, Invest, Lookout, Vig, Jailor, Mafia killing, Consig, and even Medium are effective against SK. I strongly suggest Sheriff & Escort immunity when not killing, and RBers (+Jailor) not know if their target was SK.

[HereThereEverywhere]

Serial Killer getting Sheriff and Escort immunity isn't a good thing.
It'll encourage the SK to kill less.
The reason the SK is the NK with the best winrate is because it's a constant killer, it gets one kill a night(usually) and with Mafia, that's significant. Arsonist can get an average .5KPN at best, and Werewolf is basically just luck-based, even with scumreading.

Mafia doesn't talk?
That's the EXACT reason why Spy shouldn't see the Mafia chat.
It doesn't DO anything! If Mafia DOES talk, the Spy'll see it if there is one, and they can't guarantee there isn't one, so Mafia doesn't use it! There's no reason Spy should see it, because good players don't give away any information in it! Spy's ability to read the Mafia chat nullifies any use the Spy could get from seeing the Mafia chat!

[kookeekwisp]

Serial Killer getting Sheriff and Escort immunity isn't a good thing.
It'll encourage the SK to kill less.
The reason the SK is the NK with the best winrate is because it's a constant killer, it gets one kill a night(usually) and with Mafia, that's significant. Arsonist can get an average .5KPN at best, and Werewolf is basically just luck-based, even with scumreading.

Mafia doesn't talk?
That's the EXACT reason why Spy shouldn't see the Mafia chat.
It doesn't DO anything! If Mafia DOES talk, the Spy'll see it if there is one, and they can't guarantee there isn't one, so Mafia doesn't use it! There's no reason Spy should see it, because good players don't give away any information in it! Spy's ability to read the Mafia chat nullifies any use the Spy could get from seeing the Mafia chat!

Your argument is "It's useless because it exists".
And without it, Invest, Sheriff and Lookout spawn more often from TI, which would be almost devastating for Evils.
Without those useless roles, Town would be MORE powerful, and nobody wants that.

BMG i speak directly to you. Don't give a crap about what these people say. Town's winrate is the reason people Gamethrow, and Gamethrowers make the game un-playable.
If you're going to nerf the Town, do it against the public's opinion, whether they like it or not.

[HereThereEverywhere]

Mafia should be able to use their night chat freely.
Yes Invest, Sheriff, and Lookout spawn more often, that's not a bad thing, because the Mafia can coordinate better. Town shouldn't be pumped with useless roles to balance out unfair rolelists and winrates.

[Myersvandalay]

Mafia should be able to use their night chat freely.
Yes Invest, Sheriff, and Lookout spawn more often, that's not a bad thing, because the Mafia can coordinate better. Town shouldn't be pumped with useless roles to balance out unfair rolelists and winrates.

I fail to see why more frequent sheriff, invest, lookouts etc are so bad for mafia. Fact is they are the best claimspace in the game. Mafia can't claim TS obviously (at least not without co-ordinating to falsely claim they were RBed, and of course only an idiot would falsely claim medium as a real medium or ret would shred that claim instantly). There's only likely to be one TP and it has a higher chance of dying early than any other role in the game. TKs either super quickly confirm (IE vets), or can auto win a CC with any non-immune role.


Spy is a particularly obnoxious claimspace eater, because... well the odds of a role that can fake being him being in the game are 10% at most. A spy automatically is not GF, Mafioso, NK, NE. The only real annoyance with TI claims, is say a fake investigator, could do a much better job, if he could call the GF or mafioso by their fake claim, say one made in jail or similar.... but... of course, that would involve the mafia having a secure line of communication...

[Kikigiri]

Your argument is "It's useless because it exists".
And without it, Invest, Sheriff and Lookout spawn more often from TI, which would be almost devastating for Evils.
Without those useless roles, Town would be MORE powerful, and nobody wants that.

BMG i speak directly to you. Don't give a crap about what these people say. Town's winrate is the reason people Gamethrow, and Gamethrowers make the game un-playable.
If you're going to nerf the Town, do it against the public's opinion, whether they like it or not.

I feel that people let Town winrates have far too much influence on balance discussions.

The thing is, winrates are really, really easy to adjust by fiddling with the role list. If you want to decrease the Town's winrate, have fewer Town or more Mafia in the list, or reduce the amount of information available to the Town by turning more of them to RT.

Individual roles should mostly be designed around what's fun (a necessary component of any game) and what improves strategic balance (that is, making as many strategies as possible valid so the game remains interesting rather than settling into a stale grind).

Sacrificing those things to tinker with winrates (when we can much more easily and much more safely tinker with winrates by adjusting the Ranked role list) is a massive mistake. If some particular change or existing feature is fun and adds strategic depth, but favors Town a bit too much in the current role list, the answer should be to adjust the role list, not to chop off otherwise-functional parts of the game.

(I have no idea why people are so defensive of the existing Ranked role list. It's awful and clearly Town-favored and doesn't have nearly enough claimspace - and yet people seem entirely willing to sacrifice fun, strategically-deep aspects of the game in order to prop up that list.)

[JOSEPHCHRISTIAN]

I say that we should do both changes

[HereThereEverywhere]

(I have no idea why people are so defensive of the existing Ranked role list. It's awful and clearly Town-favored and doesn't have nearly enough claimspace - and yet people seem entirely willing to sacrifice fun, strategically-deep aspects of the game in order to prop up that list.)

Are people like that in the game itself?
Because like everyone on the forums I see agrees that it needs to change somehow.

[kookeekwisp]

10/3/1 + NE with 5 RT's,

10 Town... 3 Mafia... 1 NE.
Tell me what's wrong with this picture.
Literally anybody.

[jasonjenkins]

implement both changes please!