Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Put any feedback about the game here.

How should the Arsonist be changed?

Don't change the Arsonist
2283
12%
Players no longer know when they are doused
4593
25%
Investigators see players who are doused as Arsonist, Bodyguard, Godfather (the doused player still knows they are doused)
3406
19%
Implement both changes
7999
44%
 
Total votes : 18281

Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby person211 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:29 am

Myersvandalay wrote:
dbz wrote:
IPlay4Dayz22 wrote:Yes, exactly. It causes waaay too much confusion, but at the same time, it is kinda needed to balance it out a bit. But yet again, I feel like this would cause too much confusion piled on top of the rest.

A little bit of confusion is fine. So I can understand the arso needing to be buffed a bit. But just imagine if tons of people started showing up as bg/arso/gf. So many mislynches because the odds of that person being arso or gf are enough to make the town want them to die.


I imagine the opposite really. If nobody's died to SK or WW by day 2, the town will assume there is an arsonist, at which point they will know pretty reasonably that a lot of people are doused, and more or less greatly distrust the BG/GF/Arso result.

Smart investigators will realize it, and when they find a BG/GF/Arso, they will write it down, and delay their charge on it until ignition. Once the ignition goes off, any surviving BG/GF/Arso's, are then confirmed to actually be one of those 3 roles (unless they were in jail on the night of ignition, in which case they can be anything BUT the only arsonist).

Unless, of course, the Arsonist ignites all but one person, which would become the best strategy after either of these changes is implemented.
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Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby Myersvandalay » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:46 am

Well he does still have to deal with the all scum problem of provable roles. He has no detectable action. So theoretically we have

Arsonist
Medium (Doused)
Ret
Investigator (dead)
Transporter (doused)
Escort

The likely outplay from this scenerio is

Ret * anounces he is going to bring back invest, does so
Invest - identifies the medium
escort "I'm escort I rbed X"
Trans "I'm transporter I swapped ret and arso"

and it's GG,

The thing of an arso game where the arso doesn't ignite, it means the mafia is going to get steamrolled. Once the mafia is out of the way, then it's only a matter of time until most of the remaining townies have a way to prove their identity.
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Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby SkorumpowanyGlut » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:00 am

What about sheriff?
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Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby Dwornicki » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:24 am

I like players being doused not knowing, and want us to try just that before we modify more.
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Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby Sweekoon » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:34 am

I like #3. Arsonist doesn't cause the panic that WW does (oh shit, ww night, ahhh).

#2 is going to make lots of doused people killed by mafia (even more so than usual) and it's not really a buff, sort of just a neutral change.
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Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:56 am

Alright. Everybody that thinks that silent douses are either neutral or a nerf are missing a few key things that make it a good idea.

First off, the Arsonist currently hamstrings itself as it attempts to get kills. The more people that are doused, the more people cannot be the Arsonist. And faking being doused requires you to take another night off from dousing others, leading to less kills when you do ignite. This is one of the main reasons the Arsonist sucks right now. It gets caught more easily the more people it douses. Silent douses fix this.

Secondly, an Escort can wreck the Arsonist right now. No other NK role has this weakness in the same fashion. With silent douses, an Escort won't know for sure that they are RB'ing the correct target, which helps the Arsonist survive.

In addition, silent douses lead to more panic than current douses do. Current douses mean that only those who are doused even care (which is stupid, really - if it was a SK they'd be dead). However, silent douses (especially with a Town-wide notification on the first douse) lead to everybody thinking they could be next. This means that people think less critically, allowing the Arsonist to survive longer.

Even if the Mafia kills more doused targets and brings down the Arsonist's killing power, the gained survivability more than makes up for it.
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that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby DevouringDeath » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:07 am

This is an incredibly dumb idea. You guys already ruined the Mayor role. Now this? Yeah, let's buff arsonist, who is immune at night and can work with others. Let's make it so there's no way to win against arsonist because there's no way to tell that there is one. And then, let's...let's make it so the investigator can't even find the arsonist! You guys are dumb, and if you keep this up, I'm not going to stick around for more. You have ruined roles. Whatever, but this is game breaking.
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Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby Triipie » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:10 am

How do I vote? I like both of these because it gives Arson a better chance at survival!
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Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby Sweekoon » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:11 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:Alright. Everybody that thinks that silent douses are either neutral or a nerf are missing a few key things that make it a good idea.

First off, the Arsonist currently hamstrings itself as it attempts to get kills. The more people that are doused, the more people cannot be the Arsonist. And faking being doused requires you to take another night off from dousing others, leading to less kills when you do ignite. This is one of the main reasons the Arsonist sucks right now. It gets caught more easily the more people it douses. Silent douses fix this.

Secondly, an Escort can wreck the Arsonist right now. No other NK role has this weakness in the same fashion. With silent douses, an Escort won't know for sure that they are RB'ing the correct target, which helps the Arsonist survive.

In addition, silent douses lead to more panic than current douses do. Current douses mean that only those who are doused even care (which is stupid, really - if it was a SK they'd be dead). However, silent douses (especially with a Town-wide notification on the first douse) lead to everybody thinking they could be next. This means that people think less critically, allowing the Arsonist to survive longer.

Even if the Mafia kills more doused targets and brings down the Arsonist's killing power, the gained survivability more than makes up for it.


Fair points, actually. I still do think that 3 is a more significant buff, but I see what you mean.
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Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby paulheymeng » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:13 am

i feel ike #2 is not good strategically* at all.. its too OP

#3 is a good balance.. you can just claim doused if you get found
Last edited by paulheymeng on Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby sunbird1002 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:28 am

I voted for option 4. but thanks for scanning the comments I realised that, though this has been suggested, it would give arsonist a bit too much power to meddle with. So I voted for 2, because it isn't a straight investigator hard-counter, and we ALL hate hardcounters. I hope that, by looking through this post, I can get knowledge and make the correct choice. Arsonist right now is pitifully UP overall, and I want some sort of buff. I have been on the role-ideas forum alot (That is the reason why I joined) and silent douses have been suggested a lot. We need a better arsonist. Can someone suggest a brilliant change for the arsonist better than the ideas here, and I would look at it. On the spy post, I gave my vote (Yes) with a giant explanation of why I voted like that. However, I don't know much about the effects these buffs for arsonist. I hope I can learn with people who have more game-sense than me.
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Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby cinapta » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:09 am

i think being immune to role blocks might be a reasonable replacement buff for doused people showing up as bg/gf/arso.
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Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby orgamsmatron » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:29 am

Not knowing you were doused is interesting, but I can imagine other NKs will play the hidden strategy and not attack to make town think there´s an arso so when you get invested you come up as doc/disg/sk and you are not suspected of being nk. That will suck for mafia, sk and ww not attacking and all
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Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby stupidphoenix » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:37 am

How can both things be added, if they counter each other?

2. No more see doused
3. Invest sees doused targets as arso/bg/gf (people know they are doused)
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Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby tyrano13 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:03 pm

Arsonist should have more cover, that's why the doused people should show up as arsonist bodyguard or godfather. I think this is a brilliant idea and some thought should be put into it. I also think that arsonist should be able to kill up to three people the same night they douse, and they have to wait for the rest.
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Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby theTiome » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:09 pm

Players no Longer see doused
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Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby BustedBetty » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:21 pm

I like both but I would only like 2 implemented. That would cause so much chaos is ranked. Nk and any is arso. If both are being implemented, Sheriff should still see mafia even if they are doused. Inves needs some changes as well cause they will be almost useless that whole game.
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Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:36 pm

sunbird1002 wrote:I voted for option 4. but thanks for scanning the comments I realised that, though this has been suggested, it would give arsonist a bit too much power to meddle with. So I voted for 2, because it isn't a straight investigator hard-counter, and we ALL hate hardcounters. I hope that, by looking through this post, I can get knowledge and make the correct choice. Arsonist right now is pitifully UP overall, and I want some sort of buff. I have been on the role-ideas forum alot (That is the reason why I joined) and silent douses have been suggested a lot. We need a better arsonist. Can someone suggest a brilliant change for the arsonist better than the ideas here, and I would look at it. On the spy post, I gave my vote (Yes) with a giant explanation of why I voted like that. However, I don't know much about the effects these buffs for arsonist. I hope I can learn with people who have more game-sense than me.

orgamsmatron wrote:Not knowing you were doused is interesting, but I can imagine other NKs will play the hidden strategy and not attack to make town think there´s an arso so when you get invested you come up as doc/disg/sk and you are not suspected of being nk. That will suck for mafia, sk and ww not attacking and all

BustedBetty wrote:I like both but I would only like 2 implemented. That would cause so much chaos is ranked. Nk and any is arso. If both are being implemented, Sheriff should still see mafia even if they are doused. Inves needs some changes as well cause they will be almost useless that whole game.


The best way to fix all of your problems is to do both buffs, partially.
orangeandblack5 wrote:Frame dousing as Arso/GF/BG doesn't work, as BG is a very strong Town role.

Here's what we need to do:

1: Do a little investigator results reshuffle. Witch could use a move to Investigator's slot, and Arsonist either needs to be on its own or with Framer/Vampire. I'll see what I can do on this over break, which starts on Friday.
2: Silent douses are essentially a must. However, it will be mechanically helpful to display a message saying something along the lines of "The smell of gas drifts through the air." to the entire Town the first time any Arsonist douses (although there is an argument not to do this in Ranked so other NKs can fake Arsonist, that's a bad play 9 times out of 10, so I say just do it universally) to prevent Arsonists winning all the time in All Any.
3: To compensate for the buff, Sheriff should now be able to detect Arsonists.
4: Have douse frames wear off after 2 nights (3 max if it needs a buff). However, douse frames also affect the Sheriff. However, they don't cover up roles the Sheriff already detects, so it only sees "Arsonist" if they were otherwise NS.

In this way Arso and Sheriff see buffs, the Investigator isn't completely screwed, and if you find an Arsonist as a Sheriff or Investigator it's a solid 33% chance of being the real one.
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

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Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby cinapta » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:07 pm

stupidphoenix wrote:How can both things be added, if they counter each other?

2. No more see doused
3. Invest sees doused targets as arso/bg/gf (people know they are doused)


well, people wont know that they are doused, so when plsyer 3, the investigator says "player 4 is bg/gf/arso!!" player 4 will be like "player 3 is scum player 3 is exe vig shoot player 3" so if the invest comes out with these results out of nowhere it might not be trusted and it can create more chaos in the town
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Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby MalchiorDevenholm » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:12 pm

I quite like the idea that the Arso is igniting the HOUSE, not the person.

Thus, anyone who visits the doused targets on the night the Arso ignites, are also ignited. It makes sense that the Arso lit the house while say the Escort visited the doused mafioso, thus, both of them were lit.
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Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby Galaktik » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:32 pm

Just remove the role altogether. WW or SK in every game is fine. Having doused people show up as BG/GF/Arso also doesn't make any sense at all.
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Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby squimbles » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:34 pm

I feel like it would be rather strong if the arsonist could do both. However, it may be a buff that the arsonist needs. I'm kind of neutral on this, maybe a bit more in favor of adding both.
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Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby presidentjeb » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:55 pm

squimbles wrote:I feel like it would be rather strong if the arsonist could do both. However, it may be a buff that the arsonist needs. I'm kind of neutral on this, maybe a bit more in favor of adding both.

I agree. Both changes result in arsonist simultaneously being completely all-powerful (literally impossible to pin) and yet also hurt evils more than before by making them even less capable of coordinating their kills. This extreme duality is not the solution to buff arsonists, and I'm urging people to vote "neither" to let BMG understand this.
I wrote this earlier; you should read it and see if you agree with anything:
Spoiler:
presidentjeb wrote:Formal writeup of arguments AGAINST implementing either change suggested.

(summary) I dissect each component and note the problems it would create. imo both of these proposed buffs would be more harmful than the current arsonist by encouraging inactive, un-strategic, uncoordinated gameplay. The solution I advocate is here http://blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewto ... 14&t=57472 and highly recommend players and BMG alike consider it--but even if it's not implemented, the current status of arso is better than the buffs proposed.

WHY SILENT DOUSES ARE A BAD IDEA:
1. What little coordination mafia/other killers had with the arsonist(s) disappears. They only become more likely to waste their nighttime activity--both mafia and arsonists. In fact, it holds true for everyone in the game--and I hardly think town needs buffing, but to make factions less efficient by wasting time makes the game less competitive, not more.
2. Arsonists become uniquely near impossible to catch via night abilities:
Lookouts: you see someone visit your target, and a few days later your target gets ignited. Do you automatically declare the visitor arsonist? In nearly all scenarios being trigger-happy probably isn't worth the risk.
Jailors/Escorts/Consorts:even if you successfully roleblock an arsonist, you won't be able to reduce the arsonist suspect pool to your list of targets because it's entirely possible that the arsonist wasn't rbed at all; the doused person just died before ignition.
Bodyguards: There's no way to predict who an arsonist is going to douse because you have no idea who's already been doused. It's also possible you waste nights protecting a target who's already been doused. The game ends up looking like classic with the players' zero-strategy-RNG-targets*, and I think we can all agree classic isn't the most exciting thing to watch.
Doctors: The problem remains about unknowingly wasting heals on people who've already been doused.
Vigilantes: Given the low confidence in all your teammates' accusations, shooting an arsonist to confirm night immunity is extremely risky and hardly better than a random-shooting vig.
The only ones who can catch arsonists would be invests, consigs, mafia, and veterans--and the first two wouldn't work if the invest result change gets implemented.
While it is still possible to catch evils via scumreading (judging players' alliances based on daytime speech/behavior), it's still gambling, so most players usually supplement it by confirming their suspicions at night. Arsonist's "night detection immunity" makes it uniquely OP because people only have gut instinct to accuse them with.
3. By increasing the chance of your dying at night, it incentivizes people to waste limited abilities early instead of saving them strategically: jailor, vigilante, veteran, retributionist, forger, janitor, etc. would all be affected. Given that people only learn information as the game goes on, silent douses only reward ignorant action, reducing game quality for everyone. ("but serial killers already do this" yes, but TP work on SKs. they don't work on arsonists, making arso even more threatening)
4. Slightly an extension of #3--silent douses discourage players from planning long term strategies because they'll always be focused on what happens if they die that night. ("but mafia/serial killers already do this" again, the TP. also, silent douses would panic even executioners and godfathers into stupid decisions)
5. Arsonists won't know not only 1) when they need to clean themself but 2) if other arsonists exist, and if so, how many. The latter can be a bigger problem, especially for strategy and coordinating kills.

WHY CHANGING INVEST/CONSIG RESULTS IS A BAD IDEA:
Investigators: suppose you do find an arsonist. what's to stop the arsonist from claiming that they must have been doused until they can buy enough time to ignite enough people not to get lynched? and once they make that claim, it's impossible to differentiate liars from town. With more doused people than arsonists, inaction will nearly always be favorable. Again--unless you want your games to look like classic/rapid mode where players have so little information that nothing happens during the day, you don't want to encourage inaction.*
Consiglieres: same problem as investigators, if consigs are going to have their results messed with. Mafia also end up fumbling in their choice of attacks a lot if they mistake someone for arsonist/non-arso, and buffing the weakest faction at the cost of the second-weakest faction is hardly the solution we want.
The part about vigilantes still applies.

It's true--the current arsonist kind of sucks. But these new buffs would result in so much confusion that ultimately, strategy and coordination are the big sacrifices, and gameplay would only worsen in quality, making arsonist games even worse than they already are. Vote NO TO BOTH PROPOSED CHANGES to prevent arso games from getting even worse, and take a look at this idea http://blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewto ... 14&t=57472 and spread the word if you want it.

If you have any questions/comments/concerns/candy do tell me and we can discuss this in more depth. If you agreed with any of this, please quote and reply so that it remains visible in the thread. ty :)

*FOOTNOTE:
I am all for casting doubt on information in-game. The blackmailer buff was great, and I'm glad that transports remain unannounced. However, the reason I complain about zero-strategy-RNG targeting and inaction is because there's a difference between players being deterred by a little bit of doubt to players having no ways to use the information they're given due to the sheer amount of possibilities. Thus while I encourage DOUBT, the proposed buffs will only cause INACTION as described below:
doubt: While confident in night results, players are aware of items that could be messing up their information, but players can still make use of their results. While evils can masquerade as town for a limited time, there remain roles that can still expose them completely.
inaction: there is so little confidence in night ability information that people are unable to do anything with the information they have, There is no way to differentiate town from evils.
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Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby iamawitches » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:01 pm

I think both changes should be implemented, so that the arsonist gets a far better cover. People should not have to be upset when they gt the arsonist.
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Re: Potential Arsonist Changes (POLL)

Postby presidentjeb » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:02 pm

cinapta wrote:many people think the investiator buff is op, but here's a suggestion to help with that:
the doused person only shows up as bg/gf/arso for a day or two, because it only takes a couple showers to wash off the smell of gas.

There already isn't enough time in a game to investigate people once, much less multiple times. The investigator buff just encourages town to sit on information and not act because probability dictates the information they have is probably not indicative of an arsonist. In fact, both of these buffs result in a paradoxically impossible-to-catch arsonist that is in some ways weaker than the current one. Here's a snippet: Spoiler:
presidentjeb wrote:WHY SILENT DOUSES ARE A BAD IDEA:
1. What little coordination mafia/other killers had with the arsonist(s) disappears. They only become more likely to waste their nighttime activity--both mafia and arsonists. In fact, it holds true for everyone in the game--and I hardly think town needs buffing, but to make factions less efficient by wasting time makes the game less competitive, not more.
2. Arsonists become uniquely near impossible to catch via night abilities:
Lookouts: you see someone visit your target, and a few days later your target gets ignited. Do you automatically declare the visitor arsonist? In nearly all scenarios being trigger-happy probably isn't worth the risk.
Jailors/Escorts/Consorts:even if you successfully roleblock an arsonist, you won't be able to reduce the arsonist suspect pool to your list of targets because it's entirely possible that the arsonist wasn't rbed at all; the doused person just died before ignition.
Bodyguards: There's no way to predict who an arsonist is going to douse because you have no idea who's already been doused. It's also possible you waste nights protecting a target who's already been doused. The game ends up looking like classic with the players' zero-strategy-RNG-targets*, and I think we can all agree classic isn't the most exciting thing to watch.
Doctors: The problem remains about unknowingly wasting heals on people who've already been doused.
Vigilantes: Given the low confidence in all your teammates' accusations, shooting an arsonist to confirm night immunity is extremely risky and hardly better than a random-shooting vig.
The only ones who can catch arsonists would be invests, consigs, mafia, and veterans--and the first two wouldn't work if the invest result change gets implemented.
While it is still possible to catch evils via scumreading (judging players' alliances based on daytime speech/behavior), it's still gambling, so most players usually supplement it by confirming their suspicions at night. Arsonist's "night detection immunity" makes it uniquely OP because people only have gut instinct to accuse them with.
[...]
WHY CHANGING INVEST/CONSIG RESULTS IS A BAD IDEA:
Investigators: suppose you do find an arsonist. what's to stop the arsonist from claiming that they must have been doused until they can buy enough time to ignite enough people not to get lynched? and once they make that claim, it's impossible to differentiate liars from town. With more doused people than arsonists, inaction will nearly always be favorable. Again--unless you want your games to look like classic/rapid mode where players have so little information that nothing happens during the day, you don't want to encourage inaction.*
Consiglieres: same problem as investigators, if consigs are going to have their results messed with. Mafia also end up fumbling in their choice of attacks a lot if they mistake someone for arsonist/non-arso, and buffing the weakest faction at the cost of the second-weakest faction is hardly the solution we want.
The part about vigilantes still applies.
*FOOTNOTE:
I am all for casting doubt on information in-game. The blackmailer buff was great, and I'm glad that transports remain unannounced. However, the reason I complain about zero-strategy-RNG targeting and inaction is because there's a difference between players being deterred by a little bit of doubt to players having no ways to use the information they're given due to the sheer amount of possibilities. Thus while I encourage DOUBT, the proposed buffs will only cause INACTION as described below:
doubt: While confident in night results, players are aware of items that could be messing up their information, but players can still make use of their results. While evils can masquerade as town for a limited time, there remain roles that can still expose them completely.
inaction: there is so little confidence in night ability information that people are unable to do anything with the information they have, There is no way to differentiate town from evils.

full post: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=57620&start=225#p1874710
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