presidentjeb wrote:Formal writeup of arguments AGAINST implementing either change suggested.
(summary) I dissect each component and note the problems it would create. imo both of these
proposed buffs would be more harmful than the current arsonist by encouraging inactive, un-strategic, uncoordinated gameplay. The solution I advocate is here
http://blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewto ... 14&t=57472 and highly recommend players and BMG alike consider it--but even if it's not implemented, the current status of arso is better than the buffs proposed.
WHY SILENT DOUSES ARE A BAD IDEA:1. What little coordination mafia/other killers had with the arsonist(s) disappears. They only become more likely to waste their nighttime activity--both mafia and arsonists. In fact, it holds true for everyone in the game--and I hardly think town needs buffing, but to make factions less efficient by wasting time makes the game less competitive, not more.
2.
Arsonists become uniquely near impossible to catch via night abilities: Lookouts: you see someone visit your target, and a few days later your target gets ignited. Do you automatically declare the visitor arsonist? In nearly all scenarios being trigger-happy probably isn't worth the risk.
Jailors/Escorts/Consorts:even if you successfully roleblock an arsonist, you won't be able to reduce the arsonist suspect pool to your list of targets because it's entirely possible that the arsonist wasn't rbed at all; the doused person just died before ignition.
Bodyguards: There's no way to predict who an arsonist is going to douse because you have no idea who's already been doused. It's also possible you waste nights protecting a target who's already been doused. The game ends up looking like classic with the players' zero-strategy-RNG-targets*, and I think we can all agree classic isn't the most exciting thing to watch.
Doctors: The problem remains about unknowingly wasting heals on people who've already been doused.
Vigilantes: Given the low confidence in all your teammates' accusations, shooting an arsonist to confirm night immunity is extremely risky and hardly better than a random-shooting vig.
The only ones who can catch arsonists would be invests, consigs, mafia, and veterans--and the first two wouldn't work if the invest result change gets implemented.
While it is still possible to catch evils via scumreading (judging players' alliances based on daytime speech/behavior), it's still gambling, so most players usually supplement it by confirming their suspicions at night. Arsonist's "night detection immunity" makes it uniquely OP because people only have gut instinct to accuse them with.
3. By increasing the chance of your dying at night,
it incentivizes people to waste limited abilities early instead of saving them strategically: jailor, vigilante, veteran, retributionist, forger, janitor, etc. would all be affected. Given that people only learn information as the game goes on, silent douses only reward ignorant action, reducing game quality for everyone. ("but serial killers already do this" yes, but TP work on SKs. they don't work on arsonists, making arso even more threatening)
4. Slightly an extension of #3--silent douses
discourage players from planning long term strategies because they'll always be focused on what happens if they die that night. ("but mafia/serial killers already do this" again, the TP. also, silent douses would panic even executioners and godfathers into stupid decisions)
5. Arsonists won't know not only 1) when they need to clean themself but 2) if other arsonists exist, and if so, how many. The latter can be a bigger problem, especially for strategy and coordinating kills.
WHY CHANGING INVEST/CONSIG RESULTS IS A BAD IDEA: Investigators: suppose you do find an arsonist. what's to stop the arsonist from claiming that they must have been doused until they can buy enough time to ignite enough people not to get lynched? and once they make that claim, it's impossible to differentiate liars from town. With more doused people than arsonists, inaction will nearly always be favorable. Again--unless you want your games to look like classic/rapid mode where players have so little information that nothing happens during the day, you don't want to encourage inaction.*
Consiglieres: same problem as investigators, if consigs are going to have their results messed with. Mafia also end up fumbling in their choice of attacks a lot if they mistake someone for arsonist/non-arso, and buffing the weakest faction at the cost of the second-weakest faction is hardly the solution we want.
The part about vigilantes still applies.
It's true--the current arsonist kind of sucks. But these new buffs would result in so much confusion that ultimately, strategy and coordination are the big sacrifices, and gameplay would only worsen in quality, making arsonist games even worse than they already are.
Vote NO TO BOTH PROPOSED CHANGES to prevent arso games from getting even worse, and take a look at this idea
http://blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewto ... 14&t=57472 and spread the word if you want it.
If you have any questions/comments/concerns/candy do tell me and we can discuss this in more depth. If you agreed with any of this, please quote and reply so that it remains visible in the thread. ty :)*FOOTNOTE:I am all for casting doubt on information in-game. The blackmailer buff was great, and I'm glad that transports remain unannounced. However, the reason I complain about zero-strategy-RNG targeting and inaction is because there's a difference between players being deterred by a little bit of doubt to players having no ways to use the information they're given due to the sheer amount of possibilities. Thus while I encourage DOUBT, the proposed buffs will only cause INACTION as described below:
doubt: While confident in night results, players are aware of items that could be messing up their information, but players can still make use of their results. While evils can masquerade as town for a limited time, there remain roles that can still expose them completely.
inaction: there is so little confidence in night ability information that people are unable to do anything with the information they have, There is no way to differentiate town from evils.