TOS Ranked Setups (My Solution)

Put any feedback about the game here.

TOS Ranked Setups (My Solution)

Postby MrIncendiary88 » Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:05 pm

So theres been some arguments about the TOS setups over the course of 2 years, ever since the Jailor meta had surfaced to challenge the true balance of the game.
A total of 6 setups have been introduced to Ranked, each with their own unique flavour and I’m sure every player has their own preferences to each setup, but I have an idea that will hopefully satisfy everyone.

Notice that 5 of the setups all have the same roles, except for one slot. It began as

Jailor
(Omnipresent Town Carry, has the best ability of all four Town alignments combined, which is a huge issue since most of the Town balance will usually be centred around Jailor)
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
(Two TI is usually required so Town is able to get a solid start in information)
Town Support
Town Protective
Town Killing
(Each of the four alignments are contained in the list, usually paired with 4 mafia to ensure that evils can make full use of claim-space)
Random Town
Random Town
(Needed so Town can’t just win based around counter-claiming players who claim their own role and alignments)
Godfather
Mafioso
(This duo make up the Mafia’s main killing roles and are not easily seen by TI as their other Mafia friends nor can they be blocked lest one of them dies. Ambusher would be fine here if it had a mechanic to attack if the GF was blocked (check if Mafia killed))
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
(4 Mafia and 4 Town-Alignments gives the Mafia enough claim-space to fake roles and blend in with the Town, note that with 2 RM, Town will have a harder time confirming both of them, even if they know one of them. Its hard to change this because obviously you could have a double framer but if I say added Mafia Support fixed to guarantee Consort, Consigliere or a Blackmailer, some of the most key roles Mafia should have, then if RM dies then this can make it easy for Town)
Neutral Evil
(Primary function is to disrupt Town but in most cases doesn’t really because all except Witch can also help Town and also win)

Before I get into the root of the matter, please check my list of role changes here if you haven’t already, I did come from another TOS related game because I felt the Jailor meta although it was beatable, made the game kinda stale for me. So I did look in for some extra ideas that those games did better than what we have now in TOS, and how TOS Ranked setup could be done better

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=119289

But as I was saying, you may have noticed that I did not include one spot, and that is exactly the spot that makes all the set ups different. The first setup that used this format had NK, Neutral Killing roles have quite a controversial reputation on them and I would like to give my stance on my opinions with NK.

I am a firm believer that NK is needed, to create dynamics in the setup and cause imbalances such that the winning team hasn’t already won if NK is still alive. Note that one of NK’s best tactics to win is balancing numbers. Its important that NK doesn’t kill too many players from one side, because the other side can become too powerful, that you may just be catching yourself in the crossfire when you could have just avoided it by killing people from the winning side instead, creating a balance that will blackmail both sides into not killing you, in fear that the other will overpower. Like Town isn’t gonna lynch SK in a 4v3v1, because then Mafia will kill another Townie and then its a 3v3 and Mafia wins. But I also agree with the viewpoint that a big chunk of NK wins just come from being crowned by the kingmaker at the end, and while judging based on who played better sounds like a good system, its not the full story cuz most don’t judge like that and even though you can fake being NK, Town probably knew who is who and “Solo harder” can be really triggering. Personally I compare NK as like the Queen in Chess, when Queen’s are on the board, you could be completely winning, but then you can get suddenly checkmated because you weren’t paying attention. But when Queen’s get off the board, its usually the side with the more favourable endgame that will win. If we take my example from earlier, if the Mafia get rid of NK in that 4v3v1, the resulting 3v3 endgame for Mafia is an easy win (unless transporter or veteran f you in the ass). Without NK, earlygame is essentially Queenless, its just one trip up from a single Townie or Mafia and their whole team loses and then they get reported and banned, like come on for a single mistake??
A solution that was come up with was to create an alliance between all evil roles, such that if village lost, evil alliance defeats won’t count and they would lose less ELO (because Mafia and NK should work together with kills at the start because Town has more players than all evils combined), or a proposition to reward NK with ELO based around number of kills, or accuracy of kills because NK’s top priority is to get solid kills, which are generally as powerful as mislynches in persepective.

So people did not like NK, what did they want instead, they tried 2 Neutral Evils this time, Executioner and Witch. Thing is there isn’t really much threats with Exe because you can just 1f1 it and its target and Town would still be in an ok position, seeing as Mafia kills are slow because they don’t have NK, and so just rely on Town being dumb enough to fall for more than one mislynch (you’ll need atleast two or more kill mistakes as evil to win here). And the fact that theres a confirmed Witch in game even though you do counter all TK and Jailor, Town knowing you exist will just begin rapidly lynching. VFR exists for a reason, Exe and Jester don’t stop random voting.

Ok lets try an extra town but we’ll compensate NK not existing with an Ambusher. It seems like a great idea except if Jailor jails the GF its basically gg for the Mafia, because Ambusher doesn’t have a precaution to kill its own target incase GF doesn’t kill anyone, thats what Mafioso does best, even though thats the only thing it does best besides becoming GF. And also the fact that you have 10 Town, which if it was another TOS like game with an extra evil, so 10 Town vs 6 Evil it would be fine, but one less evil is a huge difference, especially if it isn’t NK, sorry if its a little biased

And finally, my least favorite setup, the bullsh- 5 mafia setup. Like really? I know the people who won with Town in this setup will think im jealous that they didn’t just beat an incompetent, terrible Mafia team (thats what they call me btw), I’m sorry but its the truth, I don’t know how you can lose with 5 Mafia on your team, thats 5 out of 7 votes required to put someone on trial day 1, and no lets not bring voting patterns into this too.

So the final slot has been experimented with extra RT, extra Mafia, extra NE and an NK. Hmm thats interesting, if they all worked somehow in their own way, wouldn’t everyone be happy if they all rotated? “But rotating is for Coven”, yes, yes it is. I have a far simpler solution though. What if, we made this slot. an ANY! You heard me right! Let’s return the Any slot to Ranked!! :DD

But wait, what if the Any is a Vampire? Yes, thats the biggest problem with adding Any to Ranked, we don’t want to add that Converter ever again. What I’m about to say will be even more Controversial so get ready. What if we make Vampire- Coven Exclusive!! Yep your ears do work. Vampire seems like a fun role, but throws balance completely out the window. And the Coven Expansion focuses on more fun and less balance, so this is totally where Vampire belongs. If Coven, Neutral Chaos roles and Rotating Game Modes are your thing, thats what Coven should be like. But for regular TOS imo thats where balance needs to be a priority, starting with no Vampires for regular TOS, you can add dracula game mode to the Rotating Coven game modes.
And btw we need more claimspace for Ranked too, so please add all the Coven Town roles into regular TOS as well, pretty please :))

With Vampire out the way, Any will bring back the uncertainty that Ranked needs. The setup can be any of the last five we’ve experienced before. The oldest Ranked setup was actually the best chance NK had of winning because there were two other Neutrals who could back it up, but being guaranteed to be hidden also sounds equally as interesting don’t you agree? So to you NK fans like me, and people that hate NK, I think we reach an agreement here, Any slot, without the Vampire, should complete the final role list. In summary:

Jailor (Nerf Jailer!!! >:C)
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Support
Town Protective
Town Killing
Random Town (Add Coven Town Roles :D)
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafia Killing (If Ambusher gets that buff)
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Neutral Evil (Pls make Exe/Jester more scary)
Any (Vampire moved to Coven)

And if you didn’t get my link to my Overhaul of current roles in this post (which I will constantly update), here it is again:

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=119289

Now I best be giving my lungs a rest. I didn’t forget that the Any could be NB as well, I’m not dumb, Survivor Anxiety and Discrimination mixed with Amnesiac Chaos is always a great addition to any setup. Ok you can roast me now, before I role block you.
Good day.
My Name is Gerald, although I would much prefer to be called Sir.

About MrIncendiary88:

Spoiler: Name: Gerald Felneus
Age: Speculated to be around their early 30s
Role: Arsonist+Forger
Last Seen: Counterclaiming a Vigilante
ELO: ~1530 (GOLD, AND CLIMBING)


Spoiler:
Image
User avatar
MrIncendiary88
Witch
Witch
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:54 am
Location: someones garden

Re: TOS Ranked Setups (My Solution)

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:30 pm

NB and NK ARE NOT an option, NB is a big kingmaker and NK is very swingy and can punish mafia/town for playing bad, which doesnt makes sense

Jester and exe are also kingmakers


The problem with the game rn is that the only neutral that is good for a ranked gameplay is witch, so either rework a bunch of neutrals to make them good for ranked or add new neutrals for it
syjfwbaobfwl
Jailor
Jailor
 
Posts: 747
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 1:50 pm

Re: TOS Ranked Setups (My Solution)

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:43 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:NB and NK ARE NOT an option, NB is a big kingmaker and NK is very swingy and can punish mafia/town for playing bad, which doesnt makes sense

Jester and exe are also kingmakers


The problem with the game rn is that the only neutral that is good for a ranked gameplay is witch, so either rework a bunch of neutrals to make them good for ranked or add new neutrals for it

I mean theirs way more issues with how Town works in general, are pretty overpowered with roles that fluctuate too much in their categories, metas ect. 6v9 isn't balanced for a mafia setup but because towns so powerful 6v9 works.

Aiming to balance town to be less confirmable allowing a 5v10 meta with 4 mafia + (witch/New ne's with the wincon). Would be the most balanced on paper.
Mafia having more free slots for a more varied mafia with TMK is honestly preferred aswell, with mafia buffs to such roles as: Framer, Disguiser, Consigilere, Hypnotist (Some indirect like spy reworks).

Nk works in a bubble in 6v9 because mafia generally need something adding more kills into the game because town is so powerful as of now, not because nk is actually balanced.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
User avatar
Soulshade55r
Blackmailer
Blackmailer
 
Posts: 1163
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:45 pm
Location: Uk

Re: TOS Ranked Setups (My Solution)

Postby MrIncendiary88 » Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:24 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:NB and NK ARE NOT an option, NB is a big kingmaker and NK is very swingy and can punish mafia/town for playing bad, which doesnt makes sense

Amnesiac can be coerced into turning Town, OR can make the game more spicy and become evil, so its not a Kingmaker. Survivor can also be threatened equally, but if anything, Surv will likely give the harder team the win, unless that said harder team played like dogpoop too but still reached that scenario cuz Mafia roles were too OP. And NK is meant to be very swingy thats the point, Town and Mafia have to control the NK so that it will give them the advantage while the NK is supposed to have none of that and break free from their control

Jester and exe are also kingmakers
Not after I hit town with some nasty NE buffs

The problem with the game rn is that the only neutral that is good for a ranked gameplay is witch, so either rework a bunch of neutrals to make them good for ranked or add new neutrals for it
Good day.
My Name is Gerald, although I would much prefer to be called Sir.

About MrIncendiary88:

Spoiler: Name: Gerald Felneus
Age: Speculated to be around their early 30s
Role: Arsonist+Forger
Last Seen: Counterclaiming a Vigilante
ELO: ~1530 (GOLD, AND CLIMBING)


Spoiler:
Image
User avatar
MrIncendiary88
Witch
Witch
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:54 am
Location: someones garden

Re: TOS Ranked Setups (My Solution)

Postby MrIncendiary88 » Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:28 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:NB and NK ARE NOT an option, NB is a big kingmaker and NK is very swingy and can punish mafia/town for playing bad, which doesnt makes sense

Jester and exe are also kingmakers


The problem with the game rn is that the only neutral that is good for a ranked gameplay is witch, so either rework a bunch of neutrals to make them good for ranked or add new neutrals for it

I mean theirs way more issues with how Town works in general, are pretty overpowered with roles that fluctuate too much in their categories, metas ect. 6v9 isn't balanced for a mafia setup but because towns so powerful 6v9 works.

Aiming to balance town to be less confirmable allowing a 5v10 meta with 4 mafia + (witch/New ne's with the wincon). Would be the most balanced on paper.
Mafia having more free slots for a more varied mafia with TMK is honestly preferred aswell, with mafia buffs to such roles as: Framer, Disguiser, Consigilere, Hypnotist (Some indirect like spy reworks).
Let’s not define any metas here, moreso a stale one at that. The Any aims to constantly change the set up every game, and so meta planning will not work here, only your adaptation skills matter here

Nk works in a bubble in 6v9 because mafia generally need something adding more kills into the game because town is so powerful as of now, not because nk is actually balanced.
I mean NK are my favorite roles simply because they break whatever systematic metas Town and Mafia wanna go for, and even if it loses most of the time so what, by the time a good NK dies the game will be completely crazy!
Good day.
My Name is Gerald, although I would much prefer to be called Sir.

About MrIncendiary88:

Spoiler: Name: Gerald Felneus
Age: Speculated to be around their early 30s
Role: Arsonist+Forger
Last Seen: Counterclaiming a Vigilante
ELO: ~1530 (GOLD, AND CLIMBING)


Spoiler:
Image
User avatar
MrIncendiary88
Witch
Witch
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:54 am
Location: someones garden

Re: TOS Ranked Setups (My Solution)

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:31 pm

MrIncendiary88 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:NB and NK ARE NOT an option, NB is a big kingmaker and NK is very swingy and can punish mafia/town for playing bad, which doesnt makes sense

Jester and exe are also kingmakers


The problem with the game rn is that the only neutral that is good for a ranked gameplay is witch, so either rework a bunch of neutrals to make them good for ranked or add new neutrals for it

I mean theirs way more issues with how Town works in general, are pretty overpowered with roles that fluctuate too much in their categories, metas ect. 6v9 isn't balanced for a mafia setup but because towns so powerful 6v9 works.

Aiming to balance town to be less confirmable allowing a 5v10 meta with 4 mafia + (witch/New ne's with the wincon). Would be the most balanced on paper.
Mafia having more free slots for a more varied mafia with TMK is honestly preferred aswell, with mafia buffs to such roles as: Framer, Disguiser, Consigilere, Hypnotist (Some indirect like spy reworks).
Let’s not define any metas here, moreso a stale one at that. The Any aims to constantly change the set up every game, and so meta planning will not work here, only your adaptation skills matter here

Nk works in a bubble in 6v9 because mafia generally need something adding more kills into the game because town is so powerful as of now, not because nk is actually balanced.
I mean NK are my favorite roles simply because they break whatever systematic metas Town and Mafia wanna go for, and even if it loses most of the time so what, by the time a good NK dies the game will be completely crazy!

I don't think crazy is a good thing for ranked, I agree that Nk is pretty fun actually I love Serial Killer and Arsonist (Not a fan of werewolf) but i rather they have a game mode for a more casual version of ranked where theirs claim space but room to be crazy and somewhat more balanced then all any. Just because something is fun or your favourite doesn't make them balanced, I love roles such as Neutral benign but i don't think they have any place in ranked either (a more casual generlist mode with claim space though IS perfect for roles like that).

Metas need to generally be addressed when talking about balance theirs ways of breaking systematic metas without introducing a third party. I need to talk about how a 5v10 Can't work with the current towns power level and I need to talk about how 6v9 isn't fun in a 1v1 faction system. To adress the issues of ranked. To adress the issues of the roles and how they work in ranked you need to also adress the meta how to prevent it (or why it's fine).
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
User avatar
Soulshade55r
Blackmailer
Blackmailer
 
Posts: 1163
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:45 pm
Location: Uk


Return to Feedback

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests