Ranked is Unbalance

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Ranked is Unbalance

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Mon Jan 31, 2022 2:26 am

6vs9 Playlist
-Compensate for leavers, the vast majority of which are evil
-Compensates for the unpowered Mafia roles and the overpowered Town roles
-Gives Mafia voting power to deal with half the town being confirmed by Day 2 or 3
-No room for Town to make an error

Instant Confirm for Town
-Jailor if claims D1, almost always instantly confirmed
-Veteran gets kills, instantly confirmed. No CCS possible
-Lookout confirmed by synergy with Jailor, often confirms most TP/Escorts/Spies by Day 2
-Lookout and Spy synergy to confirm Escorts
- Vigilantes dying after shooting town, gives Mafia no opportunity to cc the kill
-Spy being able to confirm themselves with roleblocks etc on tp/lo, easy to find fake Spies
-Too many Unique roles (Retri) which makes ccing difficult or you claim a Unique role and get instantly cced

Witch
-Forces lynches on Vigi, Vet, Mafioso, Ambusher for no other reason then "there's witch need to lynch it"
-No reason to be in the game other then a counter for Vigilante

Escort
-Evil based role, always has been in Mafia
-Mostly roleblocks town members or DEADLOCKS (another issue) the game
-Most Random Mafia roles are not powerful enough that a roleblock is enough to be detrimental

Executioner
-Boring role
-Lots of leavers
-Sometimes has impossible targets to lynch, especially with insta-confirm meta

Jailor
-Overpowered
-Jailor sucks or makes a mistake = town losing
-All town should be equally contributing to the towns victory, not 1 person.

TP/LO
-Toxic gameplay
-Don't follow this and you get lynched or executed, almost guaranteed.
-Players who don't want to play this way, shouldn't be forced to
-Confirms too many roles by D2

Vigilante
-Hard to shoot anyone
-Dying from making 1 mistake
-Dying from Witch forcing you to kill Town
-Get jailed, almost certain death with most Jailors
-Seems to be a higher chance of getting Jailed as well, seeing as Half the town (TPS, Invests) are almost some what confirmed early on

Balancing:'
All town members should be equally contributing to the Victory of the town. We should not have to rely on 1 overpowered role to do so.
Roles should be balanced to the sub-alignment that they belong in. Roles in TK should have their own strengths and weaknesses but should all have a similar power level. Same goes with Town Support, many roles that don't belong anywhere else dumped in Town Support.

Town Killing

Veteran
-2 Alerts
-Not Unique

Jailor
-2 Executes
-Delay in Jailing. Possibilities - (1) no jailing if there's a lynch (2) jailing only during odd nights (3) creating a jail cell to use
-No jailor protection from targeting (no more your target was jailed so you couldn't attack/invest/target them)

Vigilante
-3 Kills
-No Guilt

Town Protective

Doctor and Bodyguard are mostly balanced. Doctor can heal multiple times, Bodyguard sacrifices himself to take down an attacker. Don't even get me started with Trapper and Crusader

Bodyguard:
-Dies protecting your target but doesn't kill attackers if multiple attacks happen.
This removes the RNG element from role. Currently, if a Vigilante or Mafioso attack the same target that Bodyguard is defending, the Bodyguard will kill one of these players and the other player will successfully kill the target. Bodyguard should instead, absorb all the attacks, but be to overwhelmed to kill the attackers.

Town Investigative

Sheriff should be the primary force that finds evildoers, but is useless most of the games. If there's a Disguiser in the game, then there's only 2/14 players that the Sheriff can find as Suspicious. Disguiser needs to be completely reworked. Killing roles and Factions should not have so much deception towards Sheriff. Sheriff is a very basic role, but should still be a threat. If other roles (like Jailor) were less overpowered, then the Mafia would actually use a night to kill a Sheriff. Currently, Sheriff is just a pathetic role for evils to claim or to give a sus target an excuse to play the Executioner card.

Investigator has an easier chance of finding evildoers. Investigators should be more about confirming somebodies claim. I would make the Investigative results more brood, perhaps this would be more achievable with more roles in the game. Frankly, its far to easy for Invest to find a Bodyguard, Godfather and be like oh ok this guy is most likely Godfather. Same goes for Vigi, Vet, Mafioso, Ambusher... it's almost always an instant lynch


Sheriff - finds the evildoers and confirms if town.
-Alignment detection
-Your target is a member of the Mafia
-Your target is a Serial Killer
-Your target is a Werewolf
-Your target is not suspicious for Town, Neutral Benign, Arsonist

Investigators - narrows down the claims and discovers any fake claimers
-Rework of the entire investigative roster.
-More roles in the game for more fake claims.
-Not so many killing roles grouped together
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby SilverCruz » Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:27 am

I didn't read much of any of that, but I'm just gonna add the little detail that a large contributing factor is that the Framer, Disguiser, and Hypnotist exist at all. Mafia roles that do not work without the Town having specific extant roles that aren't assured should not exist, and the Hypnotist is just hopelessly self-destructive since it's so easy for it to out itself through conflicting feedback.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Mon Jan 31, 2022 8:29 am

Instant Confirm for Town
-Veteran gets kills, instantly confirmed. No CCS possible
You say it like its super easy to get a kill n1, not all veterans get a kill n1, some dont even alert, and many times you might kill town which isnt worth confirmation unless another evil died in some other way
- Vigilantes dying after shooting town, gives Mafia no opportunity to cc the kill
the vigi is fucking dying, town is losing a member, how is this a problem?
-Too many Unique roles (Retri) which makes ccing difficult or you claim a Unique role and get instantly cced
there is 2 unique roles, idk what you talking about (not counting jailor and mayor for obvius reasons), altho I ahee on that vet shouldnt be unique, unlike jailor or gf or ww, there isnt really a reason to be unique

Witch
-Forces lynches on Vigi, Vet, Mafioso, Ambusher for no other reason then "there's witch need to lynch it"
-No reason to be in the game other then a counter for Vigilante
WHAT?! JUST WHAT?!? How on earth could you ever think about this, is like if vigi was the only controllable role in the game

Escort
-Evil based role, always has been in Mafia
-Mostly roleblocks town members or DEADLOCKS (another issue) the game
-Most Random Mafia roles are not powerful enough that a roleblock is enough to be detrimental
Add TMK and the problem fixes itself

Executioner
-Boring role
-Lots of leavers
the first point is 100% subjective, I dont find it particularly fun to play as but I know many people who do

Jailor
-Overpowered
-Jailor sucks or makes a mistake = town losing
-All town should be equally contributing to the towns victory, not 1 person.
Nerfing it to the ground would end up backslashing, its better to just remove it from ranked (and make it unable to spawn through TK and RT slots)

TP/LO
-Toxic gameplay
I dont see how its toxic, but its true that is super unfun both for town and evils


Vigilante
-Hard to shoot anyone
-Get jailed, almost certain death with most Jailors
No good jailor would instantly execute a vigilante, specially because there might be esc or trans

Balancing:'
All town members should be equally contributing to the Victory of the town. We should not have to rely on 1 overpowered role to do so.
Well, I get your point but certain roles will always be able to do more due to their nature (like trans or vigi)
Roles should be balanced to the sub-alignment that they belong in. Roles in TK should have their own strengths and weaknesses but should all have a similar power level.
I kinda agree, but I already said jailor nerfed would end up backslashing, just remove it from ranked and leave it in the other modes it is
Same goes with Town Support, many roles that don't belong anywhere else dumped in Town Support.
that is literally the definition of town support (mayor shouldnt be in ranked either)

Town Killing

Veteran
-2 Alerts
-Not Unique
veteran doesnt needs nerfs, but I 100% agree on no longer unique

Jailor
-2 Executes
-Delay in Jailing. Possibilities - (1) no jailing if there's a lynch (2) jailing only during odd nights (3) creating a jail cell to use
-No jailor protection from targeting (no more your target was jailed so you couldn't attack/invest/target them)
I already explained my opinion on this point

Vigilante
-3 Kills
-No Guilt
nonono, it should have guilt, if vigi shoots town they should still put away their gun, altho it shouldnt commit suicide (and I think it should have 2 bullets, cause a good vigi can eliminate half the evils by themselves)

Town Protective

Doctor and Bodyguard are mostly balanced. Doctor can heal multiple times, Bodyguard sacrifices himself to take down an attacker. Don't even get me started with Trapper and Crusader
trapper is balanced tho, this might sound super antipatic but, do you play coven?

Bodyguard:
-Dies protecting your target but doesn't kill attackers if multiple attacks happen.
This removes the RNG element from role. Currently, if a Vigilante or Mafioso attack the same target that Bodyguard is defending, the Bodyguard will kill one of these players and the other player will successfully kill the target. Bodyguard should instead, absorb all the attacks, but be to overwhelmed to kill the attackers.
I would prefer a priority list, but ig this also works

Town Investigative

Sheriff should be the primary force that finds evildoers, but is useless most of the games. If there's a Disguiser in the game, then there's only 2/14 players that the Sheriff can find as Suspicious. Disguiser needs to be completely reworked. Killing roles and Factions should not have so much deception towards Sheriff. Sheriff is a very basic role, but should still be a threat. If other roles (like Jailor) were less overpowered, then the Mafia would actually use a night to kill a Sheriff. Currently, Sheriff is just a pathetic role for evils to claim or to give a sus target an excuse to play the Executioner card.
Yeah, there are just too many evils with detection immunity, witch (and any future NE with witch wincon) should be sus to sheriffs

Investigator has an easier chance of finding evildoers. Investigators should be more about confirming somebodies claim. I would make the Investigative results more brood, perhaps this would be more achievable with more roles in the game. Frankly, its far to easy for Invest to find a Bodyguard, Godfather and be like oh ok this guy is most likely Godfather. Same goes for Vigi, Vet, Mafioso, Ambusher... it's almost always an instant lynch
imo the simple concept of invest is pretty flawed cause it forces every evil into 1 or 2 posible claims

Sheriff - finds the evildoers and confirms if town.
-Alignment detection
-Your target is a member of the Mafia
-Your target is a Serial Killer
-Your target is a Werewolf
-Your target is not suspicious for Town, Neutral Benign, Arsonist
this is just old sheriff, I wasnt here when it existed so idk how it was

Investigators - narrows down the claims and discovers any fake claimers
-Rework of the entire investigative roster.
-More roles in the game for more fake claims.
-Not so many killing roles grouped together
this is super vague


(I didnt quote the things in which I agree)
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon Jan 31, 2022 8:02 pm

6v9 isn't really balanced imo

5V10 is clearly the most balanced, but the issue is if we made it like that.

-Witch
I somewhat agree, I rather the vigi/witch interaction be less harsh on vigi as removing the guilt for example is a nice step.

-Escort
Eh i disagree escort is kinda alright as of now, has draw backs just as if vigi shoots the wrong person, ect. Town roles can have a negative impact on town thats fine.

-Executioner
Remove it from ranked it's too "Neutral" for something thats meant to be town vs mafia. (Currently)

-Jailor
These changes are a bit much, I would rather it not spawn in ranked even then i do agree that it needs to be nerfed just not to that extent

-Sheriff
This reverts it to old sheriff which literally changes nothing I'm pretty sure? Other then in all any Nks have a harder time so No. Sheriff is actually balanced Imo, the reason why it's fake claimed a lot is because how dumb the meta is with most town getting easily confirmed.

-Invest
Needs more then just what you said imo, it's alright currently but could do with a rework or changes

I will now list a couple of roles that are either broken or really poorly designed (that you haven't mentioned)
Spy (Broken/Poorly Designed) - Needs rework.
Lookout (Broken) - Counters such as disguisers don't function properly, Framer doesn't do anything to lookout.
Transporter (Broken) - Self transportation, really frustrating to kill, acts as a second TP.
Mayor (Broken) - Shouldn't really be in ranked
Medium (Poorly Designed) - Lame and depends on the death.
Mafia:
Framer/Disguiser/Hypno (Poorly Designed) - Useless
Consigilere (Poorly Designed) - Slightly less useless but still underpowered to Consort, Bm, Forger, Jani, Amb
Ambusher (Broken) - Also needs to straight up just not spawn in ranked.

In summary a lot is broken about the game for any kind of ranked to be balanced.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Feb 01, 2022 5:28 pm

I wont quote the entire message just for a few small notes


Jailor being unable to be protected is a bad idea, eventually you will have to claim, with vfr it might be even on day 2, being sentenced to die that fast imo its a bad thing

Also I dont understand that you support town power, but you want jailor to be almost on par with vigi


Another note is that trapper is balanced, and (with all respect, kirize, is not my intent to be rude) I dont think you are in position to make such statements since you dont play coven, specially considering you didnt even know how the roles worked (altho its true that crus is unbalanced, cause its the mix between underpowered and overpowered)
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:22 pm

(Not quoting the above part because I dont think we should start a fight, sorry for offending you)


Jailor can still be protected while not jailing, so there's a level of WIFOM. Also, Jailor can easily fakeclaim, and unlike most town fakeclaimers, can prove its role when it needs to. In addition, Transporter and Lookout exist. Jailor should be a "from the shadows" TPow/TGov.
I dont think encouraging more fake claims as town is a good idea, but anyway thats besides the point
Being forced to not use your ability or die causes the same problem vigi has right now, they have to hope there is an escort or transporter or they get lynched (and you seem to agree with me on that it is a problem)


Jailor is, as I said, a Jack of All Trades, Master of None. Which means that it has all four capabilities: Investigative, Protective, Killing, and Support. That being said, it is a MASTER OF NONE, which means those capabilities need to be weaker.
I still think that its better to just remove jailor from rank instead of nerfing it to the ground

Investigative - can talk to a player, but can't confirm with definitiveness the way Investigator can
Protective - if it can't protect a player twice in a row, and only gives Basic Defense, it's protective capability won't be as strong as Doctor
Support - with Tactical Mafia Kills (which the Devs have implemented into Traitors, so it can only be assumed Salem is next), it cannot stop the Mafia from killing, only block an individual mafia role's actions. Escort, however, CAN stop the Mafia's kill outright
Killing - Jailor should have an equal level of guilt to, and one less kill power than, Vigilante

Obviously, because of the additional aspects, Jailor will always be PREFERABLE to Vigilante, and more powerful, but Vigilante WILL have something Jailor doesn't have so it won't feel as cheap rolling Vig when you could be Jailor
Its still nerfing it to the point it wont be really enjoyable, with the nerfs you want you WILL HAVE TO fake claim, because there are many situations where a silent jailor has to out themselves to lynch an evil or something like that


Also as a note I forgot to say in my first post, arsonist doesnt decieves sheriff
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Feb 01, 2022 8:23 pm

Spoiler:
Kirize12 wrote:
SilverCruz wrote:I didn't read much of any of that, but I'm just gonna add the little detail that a large contributing factor is that the Framer, Disguiser, and Hypnotist exist at all. Mafia roles that do not work without the Town having specific extant roles that aren't assured should not exist, and the Hypnotist is just hopelessly self-destructive since it's so easy for it to out itself through conflicting feedback.

Creator of Hypnotist speaking. It is literally one of the strongest roles that only needs the slightest buff (in the form of a "wipe all feedback" option) and players just need to get better at using it instead of willy nilly.

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Instant Confirm for Town
-Veteran gets kills, instantly confirmed. No CCS possible
You say it like its super easy to get a kill n1, not all veterans get a kill n1, some dont even alert, and many times you might kill town which isnt worth confirmation unless another evil died in some other way
Nobody said N1, just that when it kills it gets instantly confirmed in the will. Which makes for easier PoE in the current game state even if it kills Town.

- Vigilantes dying after shooting town, gives Mafia no opportunity to cc the kill
the vigi is fucking dying, town is losing a member, how is this a problem?
The problem is, Town shouldn't be confirmable in the first place. Killing an evil is much more damaging than killing a town member because every death means more with less numbers, AND associative tells mean that once you kill one evil it's easier to find the others.

-Too many Unique roles (Retri) which makes ccing difficult or you claim a Unique role and get instantly cced
there is 2 unique roles, idk what you talking about (not counting jailor and mayor for obvius reasons), altho I ahee on that vet shouldnt be unique, unlike jailor or gf or ww, there isnt really a reason to be unique
The unique roles, when they spawn, take up a spot that could be used for an evil's fakeclaim. The reason Veteran is unique is because too many becomes chaotic, but Veteran should be modified to be less chaotic rather than made unique. Also, will confirmability.

Witch
-Forces lynches on Vigi, Vet, Mafioso, Ambusher for no other reason then "there's witch need to lynch it"
-No reason to be in the game other then a counter for Vigilante
WHAT?! JUST WHAT?!? How on earth could you ever think about this, is like if vigi was the only controllable role in the game
In their defense, Vig's ability IS the most devastating towards Town and I will ALWAYS control Vig over any other role unless Jailor's gonna execute evil and no lookouts confirmed.

Escort
-Evil based role, always has been in Mafia
-Mostly roleblocks town members or DEADLOCKS (another issue) the game
-Most Random Mafia roles are not powerful enough that a roleblock is enough to be detrimental
Add TMK and the problem fixes itself
Agreed.

Executioner
-Boring role
-Lots of leavers
the first point is 100% subjective, I dont find it particularly fun to play as but I know many people who do
If players find a role boring, that should be listened to.

Of course, those who think a role is boring should clarify what they mean by that.


Jailor
-Overpowered
-Jailor sucks or makes a mistake = town losing
-All town should be equally contributing to the towns victory, not 1 person.
Nerfing it to the ground would end up backslashing, its better to just remove it from ranked (and make it unable to spawn through TK and RT slots)
We've already established that the developers don't want to further exclude roles from Ranked, along with saying "RT but no Jailor" is incredibly clunky - the best solution is to add Town Power/Government, nerf Jailor to Mayor's level, and have that as the "Town Leader".

TP/LO
-Toxic gameplay
I dont see how its toxic, but its true that is super unfun both for town and evils
Likely what is meant by toxic.

Vigilante
-Hard to shoot anyone
-Get jailed, almost certain death with most Jailors
No good jailor would instantly execute a vigilante, specially because there might be esc or trans
"There might be esc or trans" is a bad reason to not execute a Vigilante. There might not be Esc or Trans.

It is a riskier claim because of Mafioso and Ambusher, but in terms of killing power it's the second most powerful role behind Jailor.


Balancing:'
All town members should be equally contributing to the Victory of the town. We should not have to rely on 1 overpowered role to do so.
Well, I get your point but certain roles will always be able to do more due to their nature (like trans or vigi)
This is why (a less powerful) Town Power/Government is good for the game.

Roles should be balanced to the sub-alignment that they belong in. Roles in TK should have their own strengths and weaknesses but should all have a similar power level.
I kinda agree, but I already said jailor nerfed would end up backslashing, just remove it from ranked and leave it in the other modes it is
See above.

Same goes with Town Support, many roles that don't belong anywhere else dumped in Town Support.
that is literally the definition of town support (mayor shouldnt be in ranked either)
Yes it should, see above.

Town Killing

Veteran
-2 Alerts
-Not Unique
veteran doesnt needs nerfs, but I 100% agree on no longer unique
If Veteran is non-unique, some nerfing of its killing power is necessary.

Jailor
-2 Executes
-Delay in Jailing. Possibilities - (1) no jailing if there's a lynch (2) jailing only during odd nights (3) creating a jail cell to use
-No jailor protection from targeting (no more your target was jailed so you couldn't attack/invest/target them)
I already explained my opinion on this point
As have I.

Vigilante
-3 Kills
-No Guilt
nonono, it should have guilt, if vigi shoots town they should still put away their gun, altho it shouldnt commit suicide (and I think it should have 2 bullets, cause a good vigi can eliminate half the evils by themselves)

Two-shot, Jailor's guilt is not an option. If a good Vigi is able to elimiate half of the evils by themselves, that means they're a good Vigi and deserve that boon.

When you have three bullets, there is more risk involved in shooting because there's more to lose. Having two-shot, Jailor's guilt means you have one risky shot and one "free shot" since you'd put away your gun at the end anyways. Three bullets means two risky shots. Risky shots are less likely to be taken.


Town Protective

Doctor and Bodyguard are mostly balanced. Doctor can heal multiple times, Bodyguard sacrifices himself to take down an attacker. Don't even get me started with Trapper and Crusader
trapper is balanced tho, this might sound super antipatic but, do you play coven?
Crusader isn't.
Bodyguard:
-Dies protecting your target but doesn't kill attackers if multiple attacks happen.
This removes the RNG element from role. Currently, if a Vigilante or Mafioso attack the same target that Bodyguard is defending, the Bodyguard will kill one of these players and the other player will successfully kill the target. Bodyguard should instead, absorb all the attacks, but be to overwhelmed to kill the attackers.
I would prefer a priority list, but ig this also works
A priority list wouldn't solve the core problem, that BG at times (with multiple attackers) acts more as a TK than a TP.

Town Investigative

Sheriff should be the primary force that finds evildoers, but is useless most of the games. If there's a Disguiser in the game, then there's only 2/14 players that the Sheriff can find as Suspicious. Disguiser needs to be completely reworked. Killing roles and Factions should not have so much deception towards Sheriff. Sheriff is a very basic role, but should still be a threat. If other roles (like Jailor) were less overpowered, then the Mafia would actually use a night to kill a Sheriff. Currently, Sheriff is just a pathetic role for evils to claim or to give a sus target an excuse to play the Executioner card.
Yeah, there are just too many evils with detection immunity, witch (and any future NE with witch wincon) should be sus to sheriffs
I don't see why that's necessary, as long as all evils that Town needs to lynch besides the Godfather (Witch does not need to be lynched by Town to secure a victory) come up as suspicious. I'd be okay with it though.

Investigator has an easier chance of finding evildoers. Investigators should be more about confirming somebodies claim. I would make the Investigative results more brood, perhaps this would be more achievable with more roles in the game. Frankly, its far to easy for Invest to find a Bodyguard, Godfather and be like oh ok this guy is most likely Godfather. Same goes for Vigi, Vet, Mafioso, Ambusher... it's almost always an instant lynch
imo the simple concept of invest is pretty flawed cause it forces every evil into 1 or 2 posible claims
Agreed.

Sheriff - finds the evildoers and confirms if town.
-Alignment detection
-Your target is a member of the Mafia
-Your target is a Serial Killer
-Your target is a Werewolf
-Your target is not suspicious for Town, Neutral Benign, Arsonist
this is just old sheriff, I wasnt here when it existed so idk how it was
Doesn't benefit Sheriff that much but DOES harm neutrals so it shouldn't go back.

Investigators - narrows down the claims and discovers any fake claimers
-Rework of the entire investigative roster.
-More roles in the game for more fake claims.
-Not so many killing roles grouped together
this is super vague
Have to agree there tbh.


(I didnt quote the things in which I agree)


Responses in italics.

Soulshade55r wrote:6v9 isn't really balanced imo

5V10 is clearly the most balanced, but the issue is if we made it like that.

-Witch
I somewhat agree, I rather the vigi/witch interaction be less harsh on vigi as removing the guilt for example is a nice step.
Agreed. 10v5, however, can work without any role modifications as long as TI and EXE are exchanged for RT's.

-Escort
Eh i disagree escort is kinda alright as of now, has draw backs just as if vigi shoots the wrong person, ect. Town roles can have a negative impact on town thats fine.
Agreed.

-Executioner
Remove it from ranked it's too "Neutral" for something thats meant to be town vs mafia. (Currently)
I don't think Ranked should be Town vs. Mafia, but I do think Executioner shouldn't play a game they've already won. Since having it commit suicide when it wins is anti-fun, it should be removed from Ranked.

-Jailor
These changes are a bit much, I would rather it not spawn in ranked even then i do agree that it needs to be nerfed just not to that extent
See my post above. The devs do not want to remove roles specifically for Ranked

-Sheriff
This reverts it to old sheriff which literally changes nothing I'm pretty sure? Other then in all any Nks have a harder time so No. Sheriff is actually balanced Imo, the reason why it's fake claimed a lot is because how dumb the meta is with most town getting easily confirmed.
Sheriff is pretty weak, but that suggestion is not the way to fix it.

-Invest
Needs more then just what you said imo, it's alright currently but could do with a rework or changes
Agreed.

I will now list a couple of roles that are either broken or really poorly designed (that you haven't mentioned)
Spy (Broken/Poorly Designed) - Needs rework.
Agreed.
Lookout (Broken) - Counters such as disguisers don't function properly, Framer doesn't do anything to lookout.
Agreed. Should also be unable to watch the same player twice, and the RNG aspect of it should be removed.

Transporter (Broken) - Self transportation, really frustrating to kill, acts as a second TP.
Should not be able to self-transport, but with silent transports it isn't a second TP and can do more harm than good - which is a great thing considering it can make Mafia members kill each other.

Mayor (Broken) - Shouldn't really be in ranked
Disagree, as well as being impossible to achieve since the devs have stated they don't want to exclude roles specifically from Ranked. Shouldn't be able to spawn with Jailor though.

Medium (Poorly Designed) - Lame and depends on the death.
It's actually pretty good but double medium needs unconfirming somehow that doesn't nerf it. Thus, reworking with the core principles is best.

Mafia:
Framer/Disguiser/Hypno (Poorly Designed) - Useless
None of those roles are useless. Just need buffs. They're incredibly important towards the deception meta.

Consigilere (Poorly Designed) - Slightly less useless but still underpowered to Consort, Bm, Forger, Jani, Amb
Consig would be really powerful provided Town roles were less confirmable.

Ambusher (Broken) - Also needs to straight up just not spawn in ranked.
Ambusher is swingy and should just not kill at all (vanillaize as long as Ambusher is alive?) And also make it Mafia Head.
In summary a lot is broken about the game for any kind of ranked to be balanced.


Responses are again in italics.

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:I wont quote the entire message just for a few small notes


Jailor being unable to be protected is a bad idea, eventually you will have to claim, with vfr it might be even on day 2, being sentenced to die that fast imo its a bad thing

Also I dont understand that you support town power, but you want jailor to be almost on par with vigi


Another note is that trapper is balanced, and (with all respect, kirize, is not my intent to be rude) I dont think you are in position to make such statements since you dont play coven, specially considering you didnt even know how the roles worked (altho its true that crus is unbalanced, cause its the mix between underpowered and overpowered)

That IS rude, because I didn't say Trapper was unbalanced, I said I'd like to hear the person's thoughts on Trapper because all they said was "don't get me started". Also, at what point did I not understand how Trapper worked? Because a notification suggested it worked that way? That doesn't mean I don't understand how the role works.

I'm not gonna spend money on a dead game for roles I don't like to play with people that name themselves things that gross me out, but I have used all 30 Coven Tickets and I've played with each role. I've already done that (hence my Sponsor status).

As for the rest:

Jailor can still be protected while not jailing, so there's a level of WIFOM. Also, Jailor can easily fakeclaim, and unlike most town fakeclaimers, can prove its role when it needs to. In addition, Transporter and Lookout exist. Jailor should be a "from the shadows" TPow/TGov.

Jailor is, as I said, a Jack of All Trades, Master of None. Which means that it has all four capabilities: Investigative, Protective, Killing, and Support. That being said, it is a MASTER OF NONE, which means those capabilities need to be weaker.

Investigative - can talk to a player, but can't confirm with definitiveness the way Investigator can
Protective - if it can't protect a player twice in a row, and only gives Basic Defense, it's protective capability won't be as strong as Doctor
Support - with Tactical Mafia Kills (which the Devs have implemented into Traitors, so it can only be assumed Salem is next), it cannot stop the Mafia from killing, only block an individual mafia role's actions. Escort, however, CAN stop the Mafia's kill outright
Killing - Jailor should have an equal level of guilt to, and one less kill power than, Vigilante

Obviously, because of the additional aspects, Jailor will always be PREFERABLE to Vigilante, and more powerful, but Vigilante WILL have something Jailor doesn't have so it won't feel as cheap rolling Vig when you could be Jailor.


I'll just reply to some disagree's as I'm pretty tired.

In a Town vs Mafia Vs Neutral
What sort of setup are you thinking? I personally am against Neutral Killing in ranked that's the only thing I can really think of as current ranked is near Town vs Mafia With one mafia being not known to the other and one neutral that's not really evil after a kill or becomes jester which is practically Neutral benign, maybe i missed your meaning to it not being Town vs maf this and if I did im sorry.

Jailor & Mayor, I might concede that the devs wouldn't be listing any roles out of ranked I don't rate Mayor on the same level as jailor either currently Jailor is just too powerful to be compared to mayor.

Medium: I dislike direct dead interaction roles as a concept their abilities counter mafia Deception such as janitor and Forger, other then that they might be fed a little info, Medium is alright in current ranked but i don't think it's a well designed role currently and two mediums useless outside of confirming each other.

Transporter: I don't mind loud transporter if hypno exists (in a perfect world without spoon feeder spy) but then again slient transporter seems more healthy, My main issue is self transportation with transporter but easy confirmability does make it even more bad to play around

Framer/Hypno/Disugiser: ok, let me rephrase, spy renders all these roles in a bad spot, Framer needs to counter all Ti's, Disguiser would be fine without Spy existing but i would prefer somewhat of a light rework to disguiser, Hypno is interesting but current ranked is too quick for hypno to make a fake heal play really any useful.

Consigilere: I love this role but it's certainly not going to be as useful as other mafia roles as it stands, learning one role per night can help? espically in a mode that jailor or mayor would fear claiming if the game hade any one time or easy ways to bypass tps once or so. (without rendering tp useless).
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:35 pm

Kirize12 wrote:Ranked should feature Neutrals in some capacity, but that being said: Why are you against Neutral Killing in Ranked? A one-man faction, provided it's balanced for, is a pretty cool addition to Ranked. The problem with the old Ranked rolelist was the old Ranked rolelist, and easy outing of the NK. If the Mafia did not have a death note, and the Town had half or more rolelist slots as Random Town, SK at the very least would be balanced given that it is the most balanced NK as the others have unpredictable killing potential. Would it win as much? Probably not, but a 10-20% winrate for a solo killer would be a solid fighting chance as well as tactically cool to play around. And yes, Jester is not Neutral Evil and should either be fixed or excluded from Ranked alongside Executioner (which is arguably WORSE than Jester considering it can stay in the game with no goals). I don't think any role (outside of Chaos/Arcade roles, and even then PB could work) should be excluded from Ranked, and the developers agree, so I'd like to know more about why NK should be excluded from Ranked full-stop.

Jailor and Mayor would be good candidates for Town Government, provided Mayor can whisper/be whispered to and be healed by a Doctor and Jailor is given the above nerfs.

Medium, personally I like roles that interact with the dead. It reduces swing and means getting killed doesn't mean you're out of the game. And yes, Janitor and Forger do get countered, but Medium isn't a confirmable role which means that anyone can claim it and claim that the roles are whatever they'd like to say. This adds strategical depth on whether to trust the Medium. And yes, multiple Mediums should not exist, but adding an "evil Medium" or making it unique is just as bad. I do have a tentative solution for this. Also the existence of Janitor or forger just straight up makes your role 2x better.

Mafia Deception: If your gripe is Spy, then suggesting Spy changes is probably the way to go - any of which that remove the spoonfeeding aspect I almost certainly agree with (or at least are better than present Spy). All your statements are correct, Framer does need to counter all TI's (and should have an ability that goes beyond TI as well, since Mafia's job is to kill TIs anyways) as does Disguiser. The speed of Ranked will change if the meta does, so while Hypno is a bit weak at the moment it's because the meta is out of whack and can be fixed with rolelist changes. (In addition to this, Hypnotist should be given the option to wipe all feedback from a player.)

Consigliere: Making half the list RT's will change a lot. It'll make claims less likely at least.


Very simple why Nk is not fit for Serious modes or at least if we wanna pretend that Nk doesn't cause it's own issues is the swing and Imbalance. I actually compare Nk's or at least a third party similar to neutral benign with more power to destruct "balanced" games. If you want a more interesting and dynamic ranked then Neutral Killing is alright?
I don't really see why Neutral Killing is balanced though It's a third party that will normally end up messing one side then the other more often then not.

Common argument is that Nk should be able to perfectly scum read and reduce numbers based on that, but in practice I don't think that holds any merit as good scum should be blending in as much as possible, Serial Killer seems to at least have some control to it unlike arsonist/werewolf so if any NK was to come back it would hopefully be SK, I honestly wouldn't know what a 5v10 would look like with a NK? It would seem that if NK accidently killed mafia they would reduce 1/3 of mafias number epically on a more "trusted" mafia who got incorrectly killed by the Sk. Considering Nk also is a Kingsmaker role where a town can either vote for mafia or sk to win would need to be also adressed if people are against kingmakers such as survivor. What do you mean by arcade roles? I agree chaos has no place (PB is Nk so if Nk was allowed, I'd see no issue with it).

I don't know Nk as a whole isn't a balanced concept I always saw it as something that would make ranked more fun, Making less bland Neutrals other then only Witch as NE with a Exe.
Also nk and mafia can out Nks on their will, fake claim sheriff ect. It does little to solve that issue but I Honestly think Mafia finding sk and outing them early is a really stupid move. At least 3 factions will always have its flaws but normally have more Varity and life to the game.

Maybe my perspective on Nk and how to balance games around it is different.

Roles that interact with the dead are always going to be unreliable, they dont have much input from actions, they rely on game state and the dead to be competent, medium normally at best acts as extra easy claim space as of current.

Consig: Would need major role changes such as Jailor and reliable protection changes to make roles much more less likely to out themselves, Consig is currently weak but having more neutrals and more town to find helps the role a lot

MD: Yes and no spy causes major issues with mafia deception a lot of the time



In general I'm looking at all the factors to negate kingsmakers and reducing Swing, but if you want a more classic styled ranked that could work and be more fun then the current bland ranked we got. I feel the Issue is bringing neutrals that don't strictly win with mafia creates too many kingsmakers which people complained about Neutral benign (Jester/exe aswell) causing them.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby SilverCruz » Wed Feb 02, 2022 1:27 am

Kirize12 wrote:Creator of Hypnotist speaking. It is literally one of the strongest roles that only needs the slightest buff (in the form of a "wipe all feedback" option) and players just need to get better at using it instead of willy nilly.


But it doesn't have that buff so it's insanely self-destructive.

Mafia roles that are better off doing nothing at any point are bad Mafia roles.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:02 am

Response to Kirize12

Spoiler: -Lookout shouldn't be able to watch a player twice in a row
The RNG element on LO needs to be removed. Lookout should see all visitors. The solution is going back to the ways of LO going on targets they think will be targetted by the Mafia, instead of sitting on the same dickhead every night.
-Retributionist and Medium need reworks, especially since double Medium is broken by essentially RNG
Medium should be reworked as a Town Investigative role. More on this later. Retributionist should be able to use clean targets and should be able to use all Town roles in some way (expect Mayor)


Incorrect. Witch brings Neutral dynamics in the game, which makes games less dull. I do think there should be more anti-Town neutrals for variety.
A vanillalizer, will sort the Lookout and Jailor issues as well: https://sc2mafia.fandom.com/wiki/Auditor
This also adds another proper Neutral Evil role to the game


- Granted, but short of hiding the leaving notification there's not much we can do since there's no way to force players to stay in the game.
Lost a game in a 2v1 as the 1 Mafia yesterday, one of the town members got voted up and then Jailor instantly leaves. The other town member changed his mind because of this. Town should not see when dead players leave, period.
Also making Mafia and Neutral roles fun to play will reduce the leavers


-The only way that's possible, in practice, is if every Town member had no abilities except talking and voting (was a Citizen). Town Power/Government alignment can work as long as the roles in it aren't overpowered since Town is a huge faction and having one more powerful member won't mess things up since there'll be nine people who can make an independent decision.
Mayor's balanced, but it should not occur within Town Random or Town Support. Yes Town Government alignment, but I do not believe Jailor belongs there. Jailor would be better suited for Town Support/Killing with Nerfs.

Seeing as you can't just have Mayor in the TOwn Government alignment, I believe Marshall from Starcraft Mafia would be a good fit. Its balanced and arguably less powerful as it doesn't have the extra votes but can lynch 2 players in a day. They have settings to adjust roles over there and you can give Marshall 1 or 2 group executions with 2,3 lynches per execution. But I think the most balance way would be 2 group executions with 2 lynches. https://sc2mafia.fandom.com/wiki/Marshall


-Yes they should - Ranked is about winning, not being fair. There shouldn't be a strategy so predominant that there's no reason to use any other, which is the purpose of these suggestions, but the fact of the matter is there IS - and Town needs to play to win.
It's about winning yes, but I should not have to go aimlessly on the self entitled tp/lo prick every single game

-Agreed. Suicide guilt should be abolished and replaced with Jailor's guilt.
Needs an advantage over Jailor to be equally balanced. The role should be allowed to make a mistake. I only somewhat agree with losing a bullet, so then you can at least shoot 2 people every game. Guilt isn't an excuse for gamethrowers, there's over issues for that. And that seems to be more of a ranked practice issue anyway, then a ranked issue. hardly ever see throwers in ranked

-Vigilante is arguably the second most powerful role besides Jailor, I don't think it's an insta kill.
Most Jailors out there and noobs and will most of the time execute Vigilantes, unless they find them N1. My best Vigilante games are when I get jailed N1. If I get Jailed after that, usually a noob Jailor will execute me. Especially if there are cc's. Reducing confirmiabliti will at least reduce the chance of getting jailed as Vigilante. Vigilante you have to be cautious in the current meta, get pushed for VFR you're most likely dying unless you fake claim, fake claim TP, Lookout says you're lying, fake claim Retri get cced, fake claim Medium weak claim everyone guilties.

-That's the point of Town Support - a miscellaneous alignment. It shouldn't be abolished, but I'm open to considering that it shouldn't be confirmed on rolelists.
Needs more balanced roles added to it. Currently the only roles that actually fit the Town Support category are Transporter and Escort (and arguably they're not entirely balanced). Mediums too underpowered and Mayor should only be possible under Town Government. Retributionist might fit this category with a proper rework, but it has the issue of being useless in too many games.

I'd be open to not allowing Jailor to jail the first night, but I don't think any of these (besides maybe the third one - elaborate) is what will fix Jailor.
Start game at Night 1, easy. Set up a Jail cell for usage, takes a night. Jail cell lasts until someone is executed, then Jailor has to build again.

I'd be open to not allowing Jailor to jail the first night, but I don't think any of these (besides maybe the third one - elaborate) is what will fix Jailor.
Not a lot of difference between Basic and Powerful defense in ranked. Mafia will still lose a kill if they hit jailed target. I'd rather see the protection element removed entirely.

No Guilt is a bit too strong and doesn't fix your issues with Witch. I'd say Jailor's guilt is more balanced.
Still less strong then Mafia. Shooting townies is a determent in itself, no need for guilt. Allow them to shoot again. Witch should be able to get solo wins, and it would be rare that a Witch is able to make a Vigilante shoot multiple times. And if the Witch can, then he deserves to do so


I would like to hear your thoughts on Trapper and Crusader, especially Crusader.
Trapper is actually somewhat balanced as a protective and killing role. I just feel like it's weak sometimes when the traps triggered by a non hostile role and then you have to build a trap again. I could be wrong, as I don't play a lot of Coven.
Crusader has too much RNG involved and I don't like any roles that rely on RNG. Prehaps Crusader could be nerfed as like a visiting Veteran, so kills all visitors of its target but has limited uses? OR Crusader could scare off players if more than 1 player targets but always kill an Attacker. If only 1 person targets a player then it operates like normal. I prefer the first idea. Idk, there's probably better ideas out there


What would you think of a one-use gun, which won't kill the target but will test for defense? (It won't discriminate between temporary and permanent defense, only will test to see if the target would survive that night)
Not a bad idea, could just remove Godfathers detection immunity

Otherwise, the best way I can think of to buff Sheriff is to make it so Framer, Arsonist, and HM's investigative manipulation only lasts the night of and the night after.
Arsonist shouldn't change investigative results, don't even know why it does. Framer should be the main role that messes with investigative results, it needs buffs as well. Disguiser is a bad concept and should be completely reworked, that would be a better way to buff Sheriff

This is how it used to work, the reason I'm opposed to it is because it doesn't actually benefit Sheriff that much but WILL be harsh on Neutrals. Suspicious/Innocent is better.
Makes it less confusing to new players or people who just don't concentrate on the game that much. Mafia is suspicious, yet Serial Killer is seems suspicious. You can tell the difference, but most people don't notice. Showing the alignment would make more sense. The only NK role that should appear innocent is Arsonist as they cannot deal with Sheriff. Leave Neutral Evils and Benign as not suspicious.

The current AMOUNT of roles in the game are fine to fake claim, it's just the roles themselves that can't be faked which is harsh on evils.
There could be more... Amnesiac, Survivor and Tracker would be easy fake claims


Steps to Decrease Town Confirmability
-I would suggest adding Tracker, Amnesiac and Survivor to the game. These are very easy roles for the Mafia to fake claim. Amnesiac and Survivor are somewhat bad claims, but will still get away with most VFR if they do not get cced by another Neutral who is town siding. Tracker is a confirmable role, but is also very easy to fake. I don't understand why its not in ranked already.
-Remove the predetermined Executioner and Witch
-All gun kills (Vigi, Vet, Ambusher, Mafioso) should be indistinguishable
-Guaranteed Jailor 100% needs to be removed
-Replace Town Support with Town Government
-Add counter roles to the game which make it actually detrimental for Jailor to just out himself D1
-Change Investigative results (more on this)
-Remove a trial to reduce VFR effectiveness
-Add certain roles to multiple sub-alignments
-Decrease the counter roles spawning. In a game with 2 Consorts, there's often multiple Escorts. Hypno, more chance of Transporter; Blackmailer, more spies. It's clear there's some system in the background that if one Mafia role exists than there's more likely to be more of its Town Counter role. Removing this would decrease the chance of the swingy 4 Transport, 4 Vigilante, 4 Escort set-ups that we see way more often then we should.
-Spy - Remove visits, make it a Town Support/Investigative type role
-Medium - rework as an investigative type role that checks dead people for feedback and who they visited
-Plenty of other ways that I touched on in the original post


Investigative Reworks
Could be better, would rather more roles in the base game. Should be 4 roles 3 good, 1 evil or 5 roles with 3 good, 1 neutral, 1 evil in the base game.
Vigilante, Janitor, Medium, Crusader, Jester, Arsonist
Framer, Lookout, Amnesiac, Ambusher or Spy
Mayor, Godfather, Transporter, Survivor or Trapper
Sheriff, Forger, Investigator ,Medium, Serial Killer or Disguiser
Jailor, Mafioso, Bodyguard, Escort, Consort, Werewolf
Executioner, Retributionist, Witch, Hypnotist, Doctor or Veteran

Town Investigative
Tracker
Lookout
Sheriff
Investigator
Medium (Coroner)
Spy

Town Protective
Bodyguard
Crusader
Doctor
Trapper
Transporter

Town Killing
Crusader
Trapper
Vigilante
Veteran
Jailor

Town Support
Retributionist
Jailor
Spy
Escort
Trapper
Transporter

Neutral Random
Executioner
Jester
Witch
Survivor
Amnesiac
More????

Rolelist
Godfather
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

Neutral Random (excludes killing, chaos)
Neutral Killing
Town Government
Town Protective
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Killing
Town Support or Random
Town Random
Town Random
Town Random

Any Random (excludes Mafia and killing roles)

Godfather
Mafia Deception
Mafia Support
Random Mafia

Random Neutral (excludes killing, chaos)
Town Government
Town Protective
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Killing
Town Support or Random
Town Random
Town Random
Town Random

Any Random (excludes Mafia and killing roles)
Last edited by TheTraitorofSalem on Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:47 am

Reworks for broken roles

Role Name: Medium

Role Alignment: Town Investigative

Abilities:
-Investigate a dead player each night

Attributes:
-You will determine your targets true role and last will
-You will receive all feedback and results that your target received the night they died
-You will know of all the roles that visited your target the night they died

Additional Information:
Acts as an Investigative role now that checks dead players for their true role, alignment and last will. This is better then having to rely on the dead chat

Role Name: Spy

Role Alignment: Town Power/Investigative

Abilities:
-Bug a player's house each night

Attributes:
-You will be informed of if your bugged targets were at home or not
-You will be aware of which roles visited your bugged targets
-You may have three bugs out at a time
-bugs take a night to remove from a players house

Additional Information:

Role Name: Disguiser

Role Alignment: Mafia Deception

Abilities:
-At night Disguise yourself as another player

Attributes:
-You may disguise three times
-All actions directed at you will instead be redirected to your disguised target
-If you are killed at night or lynched the following day, you will appear to be the role of your disguised target

Additional Information:
Could be written better, not good at writing roles.


Possible Roles to add to Ranked
-Mafia LO/Tracker
-A Mafia/Town equivalent of Cop: 1 gun that can be shot during the day for an instant kill, doesn't reveal shooter
-Armoursmith: Grants limited amounts of Armour which can be used as you would a bulletproof vest
-Marshall
-Vanillizer: Neutral Evil, removes targets role converting them to Citizen. Limited uses 2 or 3
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:36 am

I will only reply to some things, because I either explained before or I agree with it


First: devs stated that they wont add more coven roles to classic, as much as tracker would be an extremely good addition (as its probably the most balanced role and that is also just as straightforward as sheriff), it wont happen

Another thing is that a role might be balanced for the game and might not break any "balance rule", but it also has to be fun to AT LEAST have in a game, a vanillazer wouldnt be fun neither to play as or against (I think framer kinda has the same problem)

Adding survivor or amne to ranked has the same problem that having exe or jest currently has, neutrals are needed to make the game more fun an intresting, the problem is that the only neutral that is good for a ranked gameplay is witch (SK being a second candidate if it wasnt because of night 1, and that mafia can get punished for the SK being bad)

I disagree on having roles in multiple subalignments because that increases the chances of having 4 of the same role

Day kills arent (and shouldnt) be a thing, except of lynches ofc

Also I dont really see the problem with vfr, if an evil doesnt has a claim ready by the voting phase of day 2 then they deserve to be lynched

Just make it so that the first target is notificated of transport, that way hypno can fake it without any problem, and it becomes just as confirmable as an escort
And also reduce self transports to 1, so trans doesnt becomes inmortal




And as a few notes for kirize

1-By "sheriff isnt decieved by arso" I mean that it doesnt currently, and it should stay that way

2-While a veteran rework seems intresting, I think it should keep the playstyle it has (basically the exact oposite of vigilante, be loud, draw the attention, fake claim a role that would make you get attacked), alex made a more in deepth explanation in another post but idk where it is




Also, I suggested a role like 2 months ago that could also work as a rework for crusader
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=118858
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Wed Feb 02, 2022 4:55 pm

I am not gonna reply to things in which I agree

I will only reply to some things, because I either explained before or I agree with it


First: devs stated that they wont add more coven roles to classic, as much as tracker would be an extremely good addition (as its probably the most balanced role and that is also just as straightforward as sheriff), it wont happen
Can you quote the devs on this? As far as I'm aware the last time they said that was before they added Hypnotist and Ambusher (both used to be Coven exclusive roles) to Classic. Personally, I think the game could benefit to roles being added in cycles; meaning those who own the Coven expansion get new Town/Neutral roles for like a year while roles like Tracker get added to Classic after the fun's wore out for those who own Coven, in a way similar to how new skins are released for TP-exclusive before being changed to MP-also when new skins are added.
I agree on this, I always did, I am just saying why it will probably never happen

Another thing is that a role might be balanced for the game and might not break any "balance rule", but it also has to be fun to AT LEAST have in a game, a vanillazer wouldnt be fun neither to play as or against (I think framer kinda has the same problem)
Agreed on Vanillaizer (at least to some extent). Framer is similar in practice but can be changed so it's actually fun to play against, starting by removing permaframe.

Adding survivor or amne to ranked has the same problem that having exe or jest currently has, neutrals are needed to make the game more fun an intresting, the problem is that the only neutral that is good for a ranked gameplay is witch (SK being a second candidate if it wasnt because of night 1, and that mafia can get punished for the SK being bad)
Mafia wouldn't get punished for SK being bad any more than they would for Witch. If SK kills Mafia, that's not a bad SK: their job is to kill the Mafia as they do not win with each other.
the thing is, witch is (at least currently) part of mafia team, so a bad play on witch should punish them
With SK is not the same, they are an enemy faction, that being said as SK you dont want to kill mafia too early cause that leaves you alone against big amounts of town, and the same applies to mafia with sk


I disagree on having roles in multiple subalignments because that increases the chances of having 4 of the same role
Agreed.

Day kills arent (and shouldnt) be a thing, except of lynches ofc
Why, beyond confirmability, should day kills not be a thing?
you said so, confirmability and also making thr game more complicated

Also I dont really see the problem with vfr, if an evil doesnt has a claim ready by the voting phase of day 2 then they deserve to be lynched
VFR is a predominant strategy, meaning there's no reason to use any other. This leads to most games playing out the same. Early claims aren't good for the game and should be limited.

Just make it so that the first target is notificated of transport, that way hypno can fake it without any problem, and it becomes just as confirmable as an escort
And also reduce self transports to 1, so trans doesnt becomes inmortal
Hypno would have to fake being transporter every night, removing its ability to make other plays. And while Escort is confirmable, which is bad, it also cannot function without a notification - transporter can.
They would still be able to do anything else, this just allows them to have a reliable and accesible fake claim if needed


And as a few notes for kirize

1-By "sheriff isnt decieved by arso" I mean that it doesnt currently, and it should stay that way

Why? That literally creates a weakness based off RNG. Why should Sheriff's strength/utility be determined by which NK rolls?
if arso decieved sheriff then sheriff would be even worse than now, unless arso themselves didnt have detection immunity

2-While a veteran rework seems intresting, I think it should keep the playstyle it has (basically the exact oposite of vigilante, be loud, draw the attention, fake claim a role that would make you get attacked), alex made a more in deepth explanation in another post but idk where it is

I agree. I'm not saying remove the alert function; that's not a rework, that's an entirely different role.

Alex has worked on a Vet rework in the past btw.
they said so like 6 months ago, I am still intrested and scared cause vet is my fav role

Also, I suggested a role like 2 months ago that could also work as a rework for crusader
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=118858
I'll read it and get back to you.
Thoughs on it?
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby TrillPhonk » Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:11 pm

So, you think town is overpowered and needs a balance, and in order to balance that you want to *checks notes* buff town roles?

XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
I am the Orgasmatron
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:16 pm

TrillPhonk wrote:So, you think town is overpowered and needs a balance, and in order to balance that you want to *checks notes* buff town roles?

XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD


So you only read 2 role changes and assume that is the entire post


XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:45 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
TrillPhonk wrote:So, you think town is overpowered and needs a balance, and in order to balance that you want to *checks notes* buff town roles?

XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD


So you only read 2 role changes and assume that is the entire post


XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

They think when you say nerf town they mean nerf the real hitters such as sheriff.

When people say "nerf town" they don't mean nerf every role, in fact we should be trying to get the town around the same playing field epically with roles such as town support sharing the same slot.

I don't know when people say "buff mafia" they don't mean every mafia is super weak just as when people say buff town not every town member is broken and some are currently too weak, but as a whole people would strive to balance roles and cause less easy confirmability.
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Spoiler: Town: Jailor
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Thu Feb 03, 2022 6:03 am

First: devs stated that they wont add more coven roles to classic, as much as tracker would be an extremely good addition (as its probably the most balanced role and that is also just as straightforward as sheriff), it wont happen

It should, reconsider this please devs. Tracker, Trapper are Mafia roles!

Another thing is that a role might be balanced for the game and might not break any "balance rule", but it also has to be fun to AT LEAST have in a game, a vanillazer wouldnt be fun neither to play as or against (I think framer kinda has the same problem)

There's a lot that's unfun about this game. The most fun I've had is where I make big brain plays and the communication aspect. I disagree about it not being fun to play as. I reckon it would be hilarious to take someone's role. Sure, it might not be fun to lose your fun. But neither is dying, neither is getting guilt as Vigilante, neither is becoming useless as Sheriff, neither is playing Spy.

Day kills arent (and shouldnt) be a thing, except of lynches ofc

They should be. Perfectly fun and balanced. All of the other 100s of Mafia games out there have had day shooting and they're far more balanced than this game.

Response to Kirize12

I don't think additional TI's is the way to go, and I also don't think Retributionist is in any need of buffs although it would prevent RNG-based swing.

Allowing Retributionist to use all town roles isn't a buff. Retributionist is set-up dependent. Allowing it to use all roles (including Jailor once its nerfed) makes it equally balanced no matter which roles spawn.

It's been suggested and shot down before, as people don't want to play as Citizens. I can understand why. If it were implemented it would only need to stay in effect until the Auditor dies.
The current small community that supports tp/lo have shot it down before. I played this game back in 2014 (had a long hiatus) and the game was more balanced with Citizens in the game. I'm not saying bring Citizens back entirely, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with Vanillizers. A portion of this game should still be about scum-reading and discussion. Having your role snatched away is more fun then dying, playing as spy, being useless as a Retri or gaining guilt as a Vigilante. It should still be trialed though. You say we need more NE games in the role and the Vanillizer is the best contestant for this.


If that were the case, Mayor would be the sole Town Government role and would take Jailor's place as the "constant" in the rolelist. This wouldn't change the lack of variety (there is a Jailor in every game) but it WOULD mean the game is more dull as Mayor is by far less fun to play than Jailor, at least until it can whisper/be whispered to and healed by a doctor.
I don't think Marshall is a worthwhile addition, it doesn't add anything to the game. Maybe we could suggest it as an alternate ability to Mayor if it's still not as powerful as Jailor with Town Government.
Marshall is a fun and balanced role and is arguably a lot less OP then Mayor. Id prefer it under Town Government with Mayor and 1 or 2 other roles. A Cop role with a 1 shot day time gun would be a good contender, of course with a Mafia counter-part. Jailor yes should be a JOAT but should still be equally powerful as Vigilante. Vigilante having more kill potential, but Jailor having that investigative attribute and unstoppable attack


I don't think removing Day 1 is a good idea, your building a jail cell is creative but I like the nerfs I have. I also don't think removing protection is a good idea since it's no longer a Jack of All Trades.
Ok, leave Day 1... but 2 Executes, no N1 Jailing, basic protection, no more "your ability failed because your target was in jail"

Jailor's Guilt is more balanced because it creates risk in Vigilante shots, which nerfs Town and buffs Evils. I'm open to considering guiltless but would need a bullet removed, which means Jailor by consequence would only be able to have a single execute.
Its more balanced in that way, but its also unbalanced as it makes Jailor a lot stronger then Vigilante, when Vigilante should be the dominant Town Killing role. Guiltless without a bullet removed OR Guiltless but you lose a bullet when you shoot a town member, so then you're still guaranteed 2 shots if you shoot a town member.

I wouldn't like that. It would make Godfather less fun to play as well as all innocent would now be confirmed not Mafia.
Sheriff should still be a threat that evils should still have to deal with. When I play as Mafia, most of the times I couldn't give a fuck about Sheriff. They're either NE or won't find shit anyway. TPS, Lookouts and Jailors are far too much of a priority to deal with as Mafia. Other roles should be just as important to deal with, depending on the player. Nerf confirmability, nerf tp/lo, nerf Jailor and then Protectives and Lookouts are nowhere near as much as a threat. Framer is the main role in the Mafia that should mess with Investigative roles and have detection immunity. So making Framer appear as Innocent would not confirm all innocents as not Mafia. Disguiser shouldn't have such a detrimental effect on Sheriffs.

This is how it used to work, the reason I'm opposed to it is because it doesn't actually benefit Sheriff that much but WILL be harsh on Neutrals. Suspicious/Innocent is better.

In ranked what's the difference between Mafia and Innocent. Your target is a member of the Mafia has better flavour though. Your target is Suspicious sucks. Leave Neutral Evils/Benigns as Innocents, but SK, Mafia, Coven, WW (full moon) should still be revealed by Sheriff

Amnesiac is impossible to fakeclaim unless the notification for remembering is removed. Adding NB's to Ranked is also tricky.
There doesn't need to be a notification there. Its dumb that there is, remove it. Add NBS under Neutral Random.

Tracker feels fine where it is, as coven exclusive, unless a cooler TI replaces its slot in the lineup.
Highly disagree. Tracker is a classic Mafia role. Good role to fake claim with a small skill element and its a balanced role. Should 100% be in the game. Would reduce how many Lookouts spawn as well.

Only way that could work is if Jailor was changed entirely, otherwise it would create swing.
Yes nerf to equal power as other TKS and then remove it from being guaranteed in every game and add in under TK/TR.

You mean rename it or replace its spot so TS can only spawn through RT? If the second, I'd be OK with that.
TS can only spawn through RT. Town Support has too many roles that you'll never be able to equally balanced. Bit of a dumping ground currently. Town Government for Mayor and more roles.

Agreed. Mafia Lookout comes to mind.
Makes Lookout less confirmable, but wouldn't reduce tp/lo I'm Jailor. Mafia Lookout also bad with Spy as it is. Mafia 1 shot day kill role and a Vanillizer would work better.

I don't think an Investigator list reshuffle would be effective, I think Invest needs to be reworked and the devs have said they want to do that.
Elaborate more on the rework

I...don't think this is true.
Are you sure? I see so many games with double Consorts that have 3 Escorts. So many Hypno games with more Transporters then there should be. There needs to be a % chance of a role spawning like there is in SC2Mafia. Notice when you play SC2Mafia that there's hardly ever games where there's lots of the same roles. No games with 4 Bus Drivers, Vigilantes, Veterans, Bodyguards. Investigative roles should have a higher chance of spawning, probably about 15%, but Bus Driver should have like a %3 chance.

You mean Sc2 Coroner? I don't think it would fit into ToS. I think a role that can talk to dead is better, but would need to be restructured to fit Salem.
Yes, I mean SC2 Coroner. Talking to the dead is broken. Useless role outside of Ranked. Ranked Practice people don't stay. An Investigative role that invests dead players would work better, even with a limited amount of uses 3?

Roles spawning in multiple alignments isn't something we do in Salem, if you'd like that addition you'd need to defend why. Personally I like things as they are, it's simpler.
Simplier is not better. This game might actually be a lot better if it was more complicated. I do agree now that Transporter does not belong in protective. But there are a couple of roles that do deserve to belong in multiple alignments. Crusader should defeintly be in Town Killing/Protective as it can get multiple kills against evils, especially if the Crusader knows what hes doing. Trapper also belongs in support. Spy could also be reworked as a support/investigative role. Bodyguard isn't reliable enough to be a TK role. But still, some roles should have multiple alignments.

This is a better list than above, still far from ideal. Both your rolelists are 9v6 btw, you mentioned that as a problem in the original post.
Any Random is no where near as bad as 2 predetermined Neutral Roles. Mafia and the Neutrals don't know if there's 1 or 2 neutrals.

Multiple alignments are for Sc2, not ToS, unless you can convince me why they're good for this game.
More claim space,. less confirmability. Harder to work out the mechanical puzzle of which RT is which. Not all roles should have multiple alignments, but there are a couple that should fit under a few.

I'm OK with this reworked Spy, but should probably be limited to detecting evil/good so as to not step on Trapper's turf.
evils then or could just see which alignments visit their target. Without any information on which role or how many from each alignment visited. Your target was visited by the Town, A Serial Killer and the COven tonight!

I do like the idea of daykills, but should be limited to a Town Government role as they are confirmable.
A Unique role with a Mafia counter part is the best way to go. But yes, should be under Town Government with Mayor and Marshall

Confirmable Town Protective, no like.
No instant confirmable. Would be easy to fake claim. Armour you can give would need to be limited to 3. Obviously a player wouldn't be able to use Armour on top of their other abillities. Could easily fake claim this and said you gave armour to a team mate.
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:02 am

Responses in this, I think in english you call it underbar

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:First: devs stated that they wont add more coven roles to classic, as much as tracker would be an extremely good addition (as its probably the most balanced role and that is also just as straightforward as sheriff), it wont happen

It should, reconsider this please devs. Tracker, Trapper are Mafia roles!

Another thing is that a role might be balanced for the game and might not break any "balance rule", but it also has to be fun to AT LEAST have in a game, a vanillazer wouldnt be fun neither to play as or against (I think framer kinda has the same problem)

There's a lot that's unfun about this game. The most fun I've had is where I make big brain plays and the communication aspect. I disagree about it not being fun to play as. I reckon it would be hilarious to take someone's role. Sure, it might not be fun to lose your fun. But neither is dying, neither is getting guilt as Vigilante, neither is becoming useless as Sheriff, neither is playing Spy.

Boring roles (spy) should be fixed, the sheriff one can be changed, but anyway that is fine because it happens due to a condition being achieved, and not another player removing the fun, vigi guilt isnt an excuse because it is achieved for YOUR actions, and dying isnt an excuse either because that would mean any role that can kill is bad
Its the same problem as bmer, some ppl might like silencing others, but literally the only one who has fun with it is the bmer themselves


Day kills arent (and shouldnt) be a thing, except of lynches ofc

They should be. Perfectly fun and balanced. All of the other 100s of Mafia games out there have had day shooting and they're far more balanced than this game.
Comparing with other games isnt a valid excuse, those games are different and have diferent mechanics

Response to Kirize12

I don't think additional TI's is the way to go, and I also don't think Retributionist is in any need of buffs although it would prevent RNG-based swing.

Allowing Retributionist to use all town roles isn't a buff. Retributionist is set-up dependent. Allowing it to use all roles (including Jailor once its nerfed) makes it equally balanced no matter which roles spawn.

It's been suggested and shot down before, as people don't want to play as Citizens. I can understand why. If it were implemented it would only need to stay in effect until the Auditor dies.
The current small community that supports tp/lo have shot it down before. I played this game back in 2014 (had a long hiatus) and the game was more balanced with Citizens in the game. I'm not saying bring Citizens back entirely, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with Vanillizers. A portion of this game should still be about scum-reading and discussion. Having your role snatched away is more fun then dying, playing as spy, being useless as a Retri or gaining guilt as a Vigilante. It should still be trialed though. You say we need more NE games in the role and the Vanillizer is the best contestant for this.

No, is not the tplo community, is almost the entire playerbase because they know this role is not fun (tbh I doubt many people would like to play AS this role, and if you think its hilarious then it makes it look like you have fun by tapping a button and ruining other people fun, an NE version of transporter is waaaay better than this

If that were the case, Mayor would be the sole Town Government role and would take Jailor's place as the "constant" in the rolelist. This wouldn't change the lack of variety (there is a Jailor in every game) but it WOULD mean the game is more dull as Mayor is by far less fun to play than Jailor, at least until it can whisper/be whispered to and healed by a doctor.
I don't think Marshall is a worthwhile addition, it doesn't add anything to the game. Maybe we could suggest it as an alternate ability to Mayor if it's still not as powerful as Jailor with Town Government.
Marshall is a fun and balanced role and is arguably a lot less OP then Mayor. Id prefer it under Town Government with Mayor and 1 or 2 other roles. A Cop role with a 1 shot day time gun would be a good contender, of course with a Mafia counter-part. Jailor yes should be a JOAT but should still be equally powerful as Vigilante. Vigilante having more kill potential, but Jailor having that investigative attribute and unstoppable attack


I don't think removing Day 1 is a good idea, your building a jail cell is creative but I like the nerfs I have. I also don't think removing protection is a good idea since it's no longer a Jack of All Trades.
Ok, leave Day 1... but 2 Executes, no N1 Jailing, basic protection, no more "your ability failed because your target was in jail"

Jailor's Guilt is more balanced because it creates risk in Vigilante shots, which nerfs Town and buffs Evils. I'm open to considering guiltless but would need a bullet removed, which means Jailor by consequence would only be able to have a single execute.
Its more balanced in that way, but its also unbalanced as it makes Jailor a lot stronger then Vigilante, when Vigilante should be the dominant Town Killing role. Guiltless without a bullet removed OR Guiltless but you lose a bullet when you shoot a town member, so then you're still guaranteed 2 shots if you shoot a town member.
I highly doubt the guilt mechanic was there for yhrowers, but anyway, it shouldnt be removed entirely vecause it makes the role more balanced and discourage mindless shots

I wouldn't like that. It would make Godfather less fun to play as well as all innocent would now be confirmed not Mafia.
Sheriff should still be a threat that evils should still have to deal with. When I play as Mafia, most of the times I couldn't give a fuck about Sheriff. They're either NE or won't find shit anyway. TPS, Lookouts and Jailors are far too much of a priority to deal with as Mafia. Other roles should be just as important to deal with, depending on the player. Nerf confirmability, nerf tp/lo, nerf Jailor and then Protectives and Lookouts are nowhere near as much as a threat. Framer is the main role in the Mafia that should mess with Investigative roles and have detection immunity. So making Framer appear as Innocent would not confirm all innocents as not Mafia. Disguiser shouldn't have such a detrimental effect on Sheriffs.

This is how it used to work, the reason I'm opposed to it is because it doesn't actually benefit Sheriff that much but WILL be harsh on Neutrals. Suspicious/Innocent is better.

In ranked what's the difference between Mafia and Innocent. Your target is a member of the Mafia has better flavour though. Your target is Suspicious sucks. Leave Neutral Evils/Benigns as Innocents, but SK, Mafia, Coven, WW (full moon) should still be revealed by Sheriff

Amnesiac is impossible to fakeclaim unless the notification for remembering is removed. Adding NB's to Ranked is also tricky.
There doesn't need to be a notification there. Its dumb that there is, remove it. Add NBS under Neutral Random.

Tracker feels fine where it is, as coven exclusive, unless a cooler TI replaces its slot in the lineup.
Highly disagree. Tracker is a classic Mafia role. Good role to fake claim with a small skill element and its a balanced role. Should 100% be in the game. Would reduce how many Lookouts spawn as well.

Only way that could work is if Jailor was changed entirely, otherwise it would create swing.
Yes nerf to equal power as other TKS and then remove it from being guaranteed in every game and add in under TK/TR.

You mean rename it or replace its spot so TS can only spawn through RT? If the second, I'd be OK with that.
TS can only spawn through RT. Town Support has too many roles that you'll never be able to equally balanced. Bit of a dumping ground currently. Town Government for Mayor and more roles.

Agreed. Mafia Lookout comes to mind.
Makes Lookout less confirmable, but wouldn't reduce tp/lo I'm Jailor. Mafia Lookout also bad with Spy as it is. Mafia 1 shot day kill role and a Vanillizer would work better.

I don't think an Investigator list reshuffle would be effective, I think Invest needs to be reworked and the devs have said they want to do that.
Elaborate more on the rework

I...don't think this is true.
Are you sure? I see so many games with double Consorts that have 3 Escorts. So many Hypno games with more Transporters then there should be. There needs to be a % chance of a role spawning like there is in SC2Mafia. Notice when you play SC2Mafia that there's hardly ever games where there's lots of the same roles. No games with 4 Bus Drivers, Vigilantes, Veterans, Bodyguards. Investigative roles should have a higher chance of spawning, probably about 15%, but Bus Driver should have like a %3 chance.
there isnt any proof of this besides confirmation bias

You mean Sc2 Coroner? I don't think it would fit into ToS. I think a role that can talk to dead is better, but would need to be restructured to fit Salem.
Yes, I mean SC2 Coroner. Talking to the dead is broken. Useless role outside of Ranked. Ranked Practice people don't stay. An Investigative role that invests dead players would work better, even with a limited amount of uses 3?

Roles spawning in multiple alignments isn't something we do in Salem, if you'd like that addition you'd need to defend why. Personally I like things as they are, it's simpler.
Simplier is not better. This game might actually be a lot better if it was more complicated. I do agree now that Transporter does not belong in protective. But there are a couple of roles that do deserve to belong in multiple alignments. Crusader should defeintly be in Town Killing/Protective as it can get multiple kills against evils, especially if the Crusader knows what hes doing. Trapper also belongs in support. Spy could also be reworked as a support/investigative role. Bodyguard isn't reliable enough to be a TK role. But still, some roles should have multiple alignments.

This is a better list than above, still far from ideal. Both your rolelists are 9v6 btw, you mentioned that as a problem in the original post.
Any Random is no where near as bad as 2 predetermined Neutral Roles. Mafia and the Neutrals don't know if there's 1 or 2 neutrals.
Any can spawn an extra town, and right now the only neutral that is good for ranked is witch, because every other neutral includes kingmaking, also vampires can spawn which is obviusly a super bad thing

Multiple alignments are for Sc2, not ToS, unless you can convince me why they're good for this game.
More claim space,. less confirmability. Harder to work out the mechanical puzzle of which RT is which. Not all roles should have multiple alignments, but there are a couple that should fit under a few.

I'm OK with this reworked Spy, but should probably be limited to detecting evil/good so as to not step on Trapper's turf.
evils then or could just see which alignments visit their target. Without any information on which role or how many from each alignment visited. Your target was visited by the Town, A Serial Killer and the COven tonight!

I do like the idea of daykills, but should be limited to a Town Government role as they are confirmable.
A Unique role with a Mafia counter part is the best way to go. But yes, should be under Town Government with Mayor and Marshall

Confirmable Town Protective, no like.
No instant confirmable. Would be easy to fake claim. Armour you can give would need to be limited to 3. Obviously a player wouldn't be able to use Armour on top of their other abillities. Could easily fake claim this and said you gave armour to a team mate.
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby Soulshade55r » Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:37 pm

I believe Jailors should lose their protective abilities in jail and lose a possible execution, With no guilt other then losing the ability to exe.

Vigilante should almost always lose shots on guilt instead of death, I think 2 town deaths for one player is way too swingy and punishing, I would say to balance this reduce it to 2 bullets but if 3 bullets is seemingly more balanced then thats fine.

I think adding something such as "Town Power" is fine, I doubt the devs would do it & Town Power would need scaling Mayor having their reveal and 3 votes (being able to be protected by Doc's). Somewhat balance that.

I think their still needs to be ways to prevent whisper the "town power" meta even if jailors not in everygame, So outing early game should have lead to a secured kill such as giving godfather a one type way to bypass protective abilities. Or at least nerfing chain protection in someway will go a long way to prevent outing.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby Soulshade55r » Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:33 am

Kirize12 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:I believe Jailors should lose their protective abilities in jail and lose a possible execution, With no guilt other then losing the ability to exe.

Jailor shouldn't lose protective ability in jail, just nerf it to Basic Defense. Jailor's role in the game is a Jack of all Trades, and that should stay. Losing the execution must go though.

And Jailor does need guilt of some sort, because it can talk to its target privately so there has to be some punishment for making the wrong execute.


Vigilante should almost always lose shots on guilt instead of death, I think 2 town deaths for one player is way too swingy and punishing, I would say to balance this reduce it to 2 bullets but if 3 bullets is seemingly more balanced then thats fine.

Vigilante should lose shots on guilt instead of death, but its bullets should be kept as is. That way it has some advantage over Jailor so rolling Vigilante doesn't feel cheap. Of course, Jailor will always be the more powerful role, but at least Vigilante will, in some games, be able to shoot players.

I think adding something such as "Town Power" is fine, I doubt the devs would do it & Town Power would need scaling Mayor having their reveal and 3 votes (being able to be protected by Doc's). Somewhat balance that.

Mayor should be able to be healed by Doctor, alongside being able to whisper.

I think their still needs to be ways to prevent whisper the "town power" meta even if jailors not in everygame, So outing early game should have lead to a secured kill such as giving godfather a one type way to bypass protective abilities. Or at least nerfing chain protection in someway will go a long way to prevent outing.

A Mafia Lookout would help with that immensely, as would the NE Stalker that is in TG.


I disagree that Jailor should Protect, Kill, roleblock and have night chat even for the sake of town power that's too much, even then removing protection is still letting jailor be a JOAT, it's not like you need to bake a investigative ability on top of jailor to make it a "pure JOAT" currently, removing power from jailor to put in line with Mayor (when they share a slot) is more important then keeping jailor's "joat" Idenity. I also believe roles like Retri do JOAT much better then Jailor, the whole point of jailor from my perspective is to detain suspicious players from taking actions, questioning for information and then deciding if you should spare them or not. Not a Town Protective. I would still argue that Jailor would be better then mayor

Also mafia Lookout is too niche to be good in of itself, In a bubble as countering jailor meta it's great but it would pretty much be worse then consigliere in everyway at helping mafia learn who's best to kill, unless jailor meta existed. I also don't think it entirely fixes outing.

I think what holds back vigilante is that the neutral evils can't even be killed by it, their shouldn't be a lot of immune evils, witch defence needs to be also nerfed so it only applies to scum attacks
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby Soulshade55r » Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:15 am

Kirize12 wrote:A Jack of All Trades implies an ability in each category - Protective, Killing, Investigative, and Support. Removing Jailor's protection means it is not a true JOAT; weakening it by making it only Basic Defense is the answer. And Jailor doesn't need an Investigative ability baked in, because it has one - interrogation via private chat to check players for their roles. If you really want to nerf Jailor to Mayor's level, which I do too, the best way to do that is to make it so it cannot be protected while jailing, while allowing Mayor to be healed by a doctor and also allowing it to whisper and be whispered to. This allows Mayor to be the loud and proud leader, while Jailor leads from the shadows. If both share a Town Government slot, they're both leaders of the town with the most powerful ability, which feels fair considering Mayor would be the only true confirmable role since confirming yourself as Jailor would be a tactical misplay. I also don't like Retributionist's role currently, the skill ceiling feels low and it isn't a good fakeclaim due to its uniqueness. It's JOAT ability also depends on predetermined roles that switch every game.

Mafia Lookout, provided it also has the ability to Track and Watch mafia members, is widely agreed upon that it would likely be the Mafia's best role, since it can gather mass amounts of information at once which Consigliere is much more gradual in doing albeit more direct.
Vigilante can't kill Witch because Witch has Basic defense and Vigilante has a Powerful attack. There is no defense for "Scum Only", I agree that there should be but it needs to be integrated in a way that isn't clunky. In addition, if that were the case Witch would need to have Invincible Defense against evil attacks, including lethal status effects like douses and poison. Both of which should happen.


Didn't know Jailor Had a faction check. Private chat is support because it's not Direct Information it's communication. Jailor doesn't even need to be a JOAT which is the point, Confirming yourself is currently the best play because it's less likely to result in a early death, Mafia Lookout might fix that but I'd argue that a Mafia role to exist to only really counter jailor meta Isn't too great. Situational Information of maybe seeing a person visit the mafia doesn't really strike me as a consistent good role? I guess it fakes lookout easier but the notion it's better then something like Janitor or Consort is absurd to me

Retributionist is actually way more balanced then most current town roles (thats saying too much about the current state of balance), I'd argue that it's situational but not game breaking or lame like Medium.

I think current Retri works well at least and isn't the disaster of a role which was previous retri.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:16 am

Note: I posted this before I was finished
Response to Krizie

Spoiler: But we're not the 100s of Mafia games out there (name five - EpicMafia does not count). We're Town of Salem.
Which is far more unbalanced then other Mafia/WW games.


Day kills are confirmable, which means that while I'm not opposed to them they should be restricted to Town Government or Neutral roles as Mafia shouldn't get more kills than the factional kill.
If it doesn't reveal your name, then its still possible to cc the kill. Not confirmable either if there's a Mafia/Evil counter-part. But yes a day-time shooter should be apart of a Town Government faction. I really don't see the harm in Mafia having 1 extra kill a game in a set-up with less evils. The kill is at the expense of other utilities. And a role like that is the best way to deal with TP/LO meta


It's been suggested and shot down before, as people don't want to play as Citizens. I can understand why. If it were implemented it would only need to stay in effect until the Auditor dies.
They're still contributing to the Towns survival. Makes claiming easier as Mafia also, you could lie and say you're an audited investigator. I'm sure people would be fine with losing their abilities. It's annoying, but people aren't just going to leave over it.


having your role snatched away is more fun than dying" is only an argument if Vanillaizer was already a role that could kill. Yeah, being vanillaized is more fun than dying, but nobody's killing them so why should it be considered.

Vanillaizer is certainly not the best contestant for NE, that would be my Stalker (asceticizer).
You can still contribute to the game if you become a Citizen. And a Vanillaizer would be as equally balanced as a Witch, they both would have an equal power level and have completely different things that they're good at.
Link to Stalker?


I don't think the TG supports TP/LO, they just use the strategy as it does provide wins - and the goal of Ranked is to WIN, not play fair.
It's only possible because the Towns overpowered and the Mafia is unpowered. Claiming a super powerful role D1 should be a major mistake, but there's not enough counters in the game for it.

Marshall isn't particularly fun or balanced considering it does nothing after its ability. It's also a lot swingier than Mayor, and is also very similar in niche. I'd much rather have Mayor have the choice between getting three votes and being able to lynch three people, if we had to add it at all. Also, Cop is Sheriff, so what you're suggesting is a strictly stronger Sheriff which I don't like and a Mafia counterpart would be pointless aside from the daytime kill, which shouldn't be added as Mafia should only kill factionally.
It's a role that would be able to lead the town and make decisions, so Town Government with Town Government being excluded from TR. 2 Group Lynches, 2 Lynches at a time. Then Marshall is still useful after using its ability as it still has another group lynch. Also, I meant Cop (EM) as in a role with 1 day time gun, could name it anything else. A Mafia counterpart would be the best counter for powerful town roles recklessly revealing themselves (tp/lo)

Hell, if you want a Vanillaizer, I would support making Ambusher vanillaize instead of kill, for as long as its alive. (players get their roles back when Ambusher dies) That way the argument that "being vanillized is better than being dead" would actually make sense since the alternative is to have Ambusher kill people.

Hmm doesn't really make sense for an "Ambusher" to vanillaize. And would still make it more powerful then other Mafia roles. Should still be a NE that can occur


No N1 jailing I could get behind, but convince me. The rest I agree completely. What about "losing jail" guilt?
Jailor should be a powerful killer with less kills then Vigilante, but with the JOAT advantage. So 2 Executes, no guilt. The Roleblocking is still an issue so limited jailing would be a good idea, if it can jail every night then I guess Town Government is the way to go. But Id still rather it stay as a Town Killing and be equally balanced as the other TK roles. And the "Your target was jailed so you couldn't target them" that bullshit needs to go
Vigilante should still have guilt completely removed.



Agreed that Sheriff should be more powerful, but Framer should NOT have detection immunity. Framer should lose its permaframe, it takes skill out of the game. Agreed on Disguiser BTW, I like your version much more although it could use some fine-tuning.
Yes, I don't think there's as much as an issue with Framer as people make it out to be. Framers weak because of other roles. Sheriff isn't as reliable as it should be and Executioner is always confirmed. Spy shows all visits.


Or OR we could nerf it less so it can be Town Power/Government with Mayor. That feels like less work for the devs and allows players experience with Jailor to stay mostly the same.
Too many people get high and mighty and think they're a King when they play as Jailor. Nerfing it less will still make it more powerful than Mayor.


It actually WOULD reduce TP/LO on Jailor, since Mafia would now know definitively who the TP are. And yes, any and all mafia roles will be bad as long as Spy exists in its current form.

I'm sure people would still ask for it even with the slight possibility of a Mafia LO being in the game. All the Spies and Escorts can just go on Jailor as well, so Mafia has more people to narrow down. Mafia usually eventually finds TP anyway

Mafia counterparts shouldn't be added to counter confirmable roles beyond Consort/Escort because mafia needs a roleblocker as much as Town does. Also defeats the point of Town Power/Government, which is to be confirmable and a Town Leader of sorts.
The Town Government counter-part could always reveal himself when shooting, whilst the Mafia version stays hidden. The Mafia version is still a good role to deal with a lot of the balancing issues of the current game

If you really want to nerf Jailor to Mayor's level, which I do too, the best way to do that is to make it so it cannot be protected while jailing, while allowing Mayor to be healed by a doctor and also allowing it to whisper and be whispered to.
Mayor should 100% be allowed to be healed by a Doctor. I agree with allowing to to whisper and receive whispers as well. I don't entirely agree with any role (including Jailor) losing protection though. I guess thats a good nerf to TP/LO. But TPS should still be able to do what they gotta do. I'd rather Jailor lose its effectiveness to protect and roleblock. And for there to be other roles which counter revealing as a powerful role early game.

I also don't like Retributionist's role currently, the skill ceiling feels low and it isn't a good fakeclaim due to its uniqueness. It's JOAT ability also depends on predetermined roles that switch every game.

Retributionist should be able to use all Town roles and should be balanced to a powerful where it doesn't have to be unique. Role lists should be less swingy and there should be a percentage chance of certain roles spawning, highest for tp, lowest for support roles.


Response to Soul

Spoiler: I disagree that Jailor should Protect, Kill, roleblock and have night chat even for the sake of town power that's too much, even then removing protection is still letting jailor be a JOAT, it's not like you need to bake a investigative ability on top of jailor to make it a "pure JOAT" currently, removing power from jailor to put in line with Mayor (when they share a slot) is more important then keeping jailor's "joat" Idenity. I also believe roles like Retri do JOAT much better then Jailor, the whole point of jailor from my perspective is to detain suspicious players from taking actions, questioning for information and then deciding if you should spare them or not. Not a Town Protective. I would still argue that Jailor would be better then mayor

Jailor should have the unstoppable attack with less efficiency to kill then VIgilante, limited jails and only 2 executes is the way to go. The investigative element should stay. But the role blocking and protection most likely needs to go unless how often you can jail gets limited.

Also mafia Lookout is too niche to be good in of itself, In a bubble as countering jailor meta it's great but it would pretty much be worse then consigliere in everyway at helping mafia learn who's best to kill, unless jailor meta existed. I also don't think it entirely fixes outing.

People will still be asking for tp/lo if a Mafia Lookout existed. I don't think its a bad idea though. Good players will be able to scum-read between a Mafia LO and a real LO.
It should be detrimental to reveal as an important role early on. There needs to be hard-counters for doing so, like a 1 shot day-time Mafia role or seeing as some players don't agree with Mafia having that sort of role, an NE role.


I think what holds back vigilante is that the neutral evils can't even be killed by it, their shouldn't be a lot of immune evils, witch defence needs to be also nerfed so it only applies to scum attacks
Neutral Evils shouldn't have any immunity at all. If you're killed by the Mafia, leave, move on and play another game.

I think their still needs to be ways to prevent whisper the "town power" meta even if jailors not in everygame, So outing early game should have lead to a secured kill such as giving godfather a one type way to bypass protective abilities. Or at least nerfing chain protection in someway will go a long way to prevent outing.

A Neutral Evil vanilizer and a MK role with a 1-shot day time gun is the best way to reduce the town power tp/lo claims. Threats to powerful roles should be dealt with, before they reveal themselves publicly.

Didn't know Jailor Had a faction check. Private chat is support because it's not Direct Information it's communication. Jailor doesn't even need to be a JOAT which is the point, Confirming yourself is currently the best play because it's less likely to result in a early death, Mafia Lookout might fix that but I'd argue that a Mafia role to exist to only really counter jailor meta Isn't too great. Situational Information of maybe seeing a person visit the mafia doesn't really strike me as a consistent good role? I guess it fakes lookout easier but the notion it's better then something like Janitor or Consort is absurd to me

I fake Lookout all the time and I usually win a lot of my games when I do so. Sometimes, I accidently put a Medium or some other dude who outs their visit or can't visit and I get busted, but a lot of the time it works. Usually just wait for the dead guys to see if they were on tp/lo, put them in the will; if I'm Witch, ill put my target in the will, might chuck a Mafia member whos claiming tp in there. And often t ill chuck a random number in there and say + more. It's easier to fake as Blackmailer though as you can work out who to put in there based on whispers.

I don't see Mafia Lookouts reducing Jailor meta at all. There's only a small chance of it occurring over other roles. And most TPS/Spies/Escorts are still going to go on the Jailor anyway. It doesn't make it entirely detremential for power roles to reveal, as there could still be multiple tps to deal with and there could be Escorts/Spies hogging the will, which are not always worth killing over TP.

I believe a Mafia Lookout would be good for reducing a Town Lookouts confirmability, but thats the only reason I think its good. Makes it a lot easier for Mafia to create a mislynch on a Lookout as well.
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby Soulshade55r » Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:12 pm

easy solution to mafia LO
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=119327

Best suggestion really but I doubt a lot of the consigliere stans will like that buff.
In general I like the idea of LO not being confirmable but the role wouldn't be strong outside metas which isn't a good role.

Jailor should still roleblock imo, the protect aspect is too much, but the role block makes sense balance wise I think it's not too broken (reducing chain jails can also be a thing).
Jailor certainly needs to be knocked down a peg or two beyond having "2 exe's" it's still a power house above mayor if that was the case.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:42 pm

Once I suggested to make it so that the player is only rbed if jailor chooses to execute, that way deadlocks are not a thing anymore
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:54 pm

Also I got an idea to buff sheriff

First: vampires no longer have detection immunity, there is legit no reason for this role to have it

Second: any role with detection immunity, except of GF and CL, lose it for the night if they kill someone
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