Instant Confirm for Town
-Veteran gets kills, instantly confirmed. No CCS possible
You say it like its super easy to get a kill n1, not all veterans get a kill n1, some dont even alert, and many times you might kill town which isnt worth confirmation unless another evil died in some other way
- Vigilantes dying after shooting town, gives Mafia no opportunity to cc the kill
the vigi is fucking dying, town is losing a member, how is this a problem?
-Too many Unique roles (Retri) which makes ccing difficult or you claim a Unique role and get instantly cced
there is 2 unique roles, idk what you talking about (not counting jailor and mayor for obvius reasons), altho I ahee on that vet shouldnt be unique, unlike jailor or gf or ww, there isnt really a reason to be unique
Witch
-Forces lynches on Vigi, Vet, Mafioso, Ambusher for no other reason then "there's witch need to lynch it"
-No reason to be in the game other then a counter for Vigilante
WHAT?! JUST WHAT?!? How on earth could you ever think about this, is like if vigi was the only controllable role in the game
Escort
-Evil based role, always has been in Mafia
-Mostly roleblocks town members or DEADLOCKS (another issue) the game
-Most Random Mafia roles are not powerful enough that a roleblock is enough to be detrimental
Add TMK and the problem fixes itself
Executioner
-Boring role
-Lots of leavers
the first point is 100% subjective, I dont find it particularly fun to play as but I know many people who do
Jailor
-Overpowered
-Jailor sucks or makes a mistake = town losing
-All town should be equally contributing to the towns victory, not 1 person.
Nerfing it to the ground would end up backslashing, its better to just remove it from ranked (and make it unable to spawn through TK and RT slots)
TP/LO
-Toxic gameplay
I dont see how its toxic, but its true that is super unfun both for town and evils
Vigilante
-Hard to shoot anyone
-Get jailed, almost certain death with most Jailors
No good jailor would instantly execute a vigilante, specially because there might be esc or trans
Balancing:'
All town members should be equally contributing to the Victory of the town. We should not have to rely on 1 overpowered role to do so.
Well, I get your point but certain roles will always be able to do more due to their nature (like trans or vigi)
Roles should be balanced to the sub-alignment that they belong in. Roles in TK should have their own strengths and weaknesses but should all have a similar power level.
I kinda agree, but I already said jailor nerfed would end up backslashing, just remove it from ranked and leave it in the other modes it is
Same goes with Town Support, many roles that don't belong anywhere else dumped in Town Support.
that is literally the definition of town support (mayor shouldnt be in ranked either)
Town Killing
Veteran
-2 Alerts
-Not Unique
veteran doesnt needs nerfs, but I 100% agree on no longer unique
Jailor
-2 Executes
-Delay in Jailing. Possibilities - (1) no jailing if there's a lynch (2) jailing only during odd nights (3) creating a jail cell to use
-No jailor protection from targeting (no more your target was jailed so you couldn't attack/invest/target them)
I already explained my opinion on this point
Vigilante
-3 Kills
-No Guilt
nonono, it should have guilt, if vigi shoots town they should still put away their gun, altho it shouldnt commit suicide (and I think it should have 2 bullets, cause a good vigi can eliminate half the evils by themselves)
Town Protective
Doctor and Bodyguard are mostly balanced. Doctor can heal multiple times, Bodyguard sacrifices himself to take down an attacker. Don't even get me started with Trapper and Crusader
trapper is balanced tho, this might sound super antipatic but, do you play coven?
Bodyguard:
-Dies protecting your target but doesn't kill attackers if multiple attacks happen.
This removes the RNG element from role. Currently, if a Vigilante or Mafioso attack the same target that Bodyguard is defending, the Bodyguard will kill one of these players and the other player will successfully kill the target. Bodyguard should instead, absorb all the attacks, but be to overwhelmed to kill the attackers.
I would prefer a priority list, but ig this also works
Town Investigative
Sheriff should be the primary force that finds evildoers, but is useless most of the games. If there's a Disguiser in the game, then there's only 2/14 players that the Sheriff can find as Suspicious. Disguiser needs to be completely reworked. Killing roles and Factions should not have so much deception towards Sheriff. Sheriff is a very basic role, but should still be a threat. If other roles (like Jailor) were less overpowered, then the Mafia would actually use a night to kill a Sheriff. Currently, Sheriff is just a pathetic role for evils to claim or to give a sus target an excuse to play the Executioner card.
Yeah, there are just too many evils with detection immunity, witch (and any future NE with witch wincon) should be sus to sheriffs
Investigator has an easier chance of finding evildoers. Investigators should be more about confirming somebodies claim. I would make the Investigative results more brood, perhaps this would be more achievable with more roles in the game. Frankly, its far to easy for Invest to find a Bodyguard, Godfather and be like oh ok this guy is most likely Godfather. Same goes for Vigi, Vet, Mafioso, Ambusher... it's almost always an instant lynch
imo the simple concept of invest is pretty flawed cause it forces every evil into 1 or 2 posible claims
Sheriff - finds the evildoers and confirms if town.
-Alignment detection
-Your target is a member of the Mafia
-Your target is a Serial Killer
-Your target is a Werewolf
-Your target is not suspicious for Town, Neutral Benign, Arsonist
this is just old sheriff, I wasnt here when it existed so idk how it was
Investigators - narrows down the claims and discovers any fake claimers
-Rework of the entire investigative roster.
-More roles in the game for more fake claims.
-Not so many killing roles grouped together
this is super vague
Jailor can still be protected while not jailing, so there's a level of WIFOM. Also, Jailor can easily fakeclaim, and unlike most town fakeclaimers, can prove its role when it needs to. In addition, Transporter and Lookout exist. Jailor should be a "from the shadows" TPow/TGov.
I dont think encouraging more fake claims as town is a good idea, but anyway thats besides the point
Being forced to not use your ability or die causes the same problem vigi has right now, they have to hope there is an escort or transporter or they get lynched (and you seem to agree with me on that it is a problem)
Jailor is, as I said, a Jack of All Trades, Master of None. Which means that it has all four capabilities: Investigative, Protective, Killing, and Support. That being said, it is a MASTER OF NONE, which means those capabilities need to be weaker.
I still think that its better to just remove jailor from rank instead of nerfing it to the ground
Investigative - can talk to a player, but can't confirm with definitiveness the way Investigator can
Protective - if it can't protect a player twice in a row, and only gives Basic Defense, it's protective capability won't be as strong as Doctor
Support - with Tactical Mafia Kills (which the Devs have implemented into Traitors, so it can only be assumed Salem is next), it cannot stop the Mafia from killing, only block an individual mafia role's actions. Escort, however, CAN stop the Mafia's kill outright
Killing - Jailor should have an equal level of guilt to, and one less kill power than, Vigilante
Obviously, because of the additional aspects, Jailor will always be PREFERABLE to Vigilante, and more powerful, but Vigilante WILL have something Jailor doesn't have so it won't feel as cheap rolling Vig when you could be Jailor
Its still nerfing it to the point it wont be really enjoyable, with the nerfs you want you WILL HAVE TO fake claim, because there are many situations where a silent jailor has to out themselves to lynch an evil or something like that
Kirize12 wrote:Ranked should feature Neutrals in some capacity, but that being said: Why are you against Neutral Killing in Ranked? A one-man faction, provided it's balanced for, is a pretty cool addition to Ranked. The problem with the old Ranked rolelist was the old Ranked rolelist, and easy outing of the NK. If the Mafia did not have a death note, and the Town had half or more rolelist slots as Random Town, SK at the very least would be balanced given that it is the most balanced NK as the others have unpredictable killing potential. Would it win as much? Probably not, but a 10-20% winrate for a solo killer would be a solid fighting chance as well as tactically cool to play around. And yes, Jester is not Neutral Evil and should either be fixed or excluded from Ranked alongside Executioner (which is arguably WORSE than Jester considering it can stay in the game with no goals). I don't think any role (outside of Chaos/Arcade roles, and even then PB could work) should be excluded from Ranked, and the developers agree, so I'd like to know more about why NK should be excluded from Ranked full-stop.
Jailor and Mayor would be good candidates for Town Government, provided Mayor can whisper/be whispered to and be healed by a Doctor and Jailor is given the above nerfs.
Medium, personally I like roles that interact with the dead. It reduces swing and means getting killed doesn't mean you're out of the game. And yes, Janitor and Forger do get countered, but Medium isn't a confirmable role which means that anyone can claim it and claim that the roles are whatever they'd like to say. This adds strategical depth on whether to trust the Medium. And yes, multiple Mediums should not exist, but adding an "evil Medium" or making it unique is just as bad. I do have a tentative solution for this. Also the existence of Janitor or forger just straight up makes your role 2x better.
Mafia Deception: If your gripe is Spy, then suggesting Spy changes is probably the way to go - any of which that remove the spoonfeeding aspect I almost certainly agree with (or at least are better than present Spy). All your statements are correct, Framer does need to counter all TI's (and should have an ability that goes beyond TI as well, since Mafia's job is to kill TIs anyways) as does Disguiser. The speed of Ranked will change if the meta does, so while Hypno is a bit weak at the moment it's because the meta is out of whack and can be fixed with rolelist changes. (In addition to this, Hypnotist should be given the option to wipe all feedback from a player.)
Consigliere: Making half the list RT's will change a lot. It'll make claims less likely at least.
Kirize12 wrote:Creator of Hypnotist speaking. It is literally one of the strongest roles that only needs the slightest buff (in the form of a "wipe all feedback" option) and players just need to get better at using it instead of willy nilly.
I will only reply to some things, because I either explained before or I agree with it
First: devs stated that they wont add more coven roles to classic, as much as tracker would be an extremely good addition (as its probably the most balanced role and that is also just as straightforward as sheriff), it wont happen
Can you quote the devs on this? As far as I'm aware the last time they said that was before they added Hypnotist and Ambusher (both used to be Coven exclusive roles) to Classic. Personally, I think the game could benefit to roles being added in cycles; meaning those who own the Coven expansion get new Town/Neutral roles for like a year while roles like Tracker get added to Classic after the fun's wore out for those who own Coven, in a way similar to how new skins are released for TP-exclusive before being changed to MP-also when new skins are added.
I agree on this, I always did, I am just saying why it will probably never happen
Another thing is that a role might be balanced for the game and might not break any "balance rule", but it also has to be fun to AT LEAST have in a game, a vanillazer wouldnt be fun neither to play as or against (I think framer kinda has the same problem)
Agreed on Vanillaizer (at least to some extent). Framer is similar in practice but can be changed so it's actually fun to play against, starting by removing permaframe.
Adding survivor or amne to ranked has the same problem that having exe or jest currently has, neutrals are needed to make the game more fun an intresting, the problem is that the only neutral that is good for a ranked gameplay is witch (SK being a second candidate if it wasnt because of night 1, and that mafia can get punished for the SK being bad)
Mafia wouldn't get punished for SK being bad any more than they would for Witch. If SK kills Mafia, that's not a bad SK: their job is to kill the Mafia as they do not win with each other.
the thing is, witch is (at least currently) part of mafia team, so a bad play on witch should punish them
With SK is not the same, they are an enemy faction, that being said as SK you dont want to kill mafia too early cause that leaves you alone against big amounts of town, and the same applies to mafia with sk
I disagree on having roles in multiple subalignments because that increases the chances of having 4 of the same role
Agreed.
Day kills arent (and shouldnt) be a thing, except of lynches ofc
Why, beyond confirmability, should day kills not be a thing?
you said so, confirmability and also making thr game more complicated
Also I dont really see the problem with vfr, if an evil doesnt has a claim ready by the voting phase of day 2 then they deserve to be lynched
VFR is a predominant strategy, meaning there's no reason to use any other. This leads to most games playing out the same. Early claims aren't good for the game and should be limited.
Just make it so that the first target is notificated of transport, that way hypno can fake it without any problem, and it becomes just as confirmable as an escort
And also reduce self transports to 1, so trans doesnt becomes inmortal
Hypno would have to fake being transporter every night, removing its ability to make other plays. And while Escort is confirmable, which is bad, it also cannot function without a notification - transporter can.
They would still be able to do anything else, this just allows them to have a reliable and accesible fake claim if needed
And as a few notes for kirize
1-By "sheriff isnt decieved by arso" I mean that it doesnt currently, and it should stay that way
Why? That literally creates a weakness based off RNG. Why should Sheriff's strength/utility be determined by which NK rolls?
if arso decieved sheriff then sheriff would be even worse than now, unless arso themselves didnt have detection immunity
2-While a veteran rework seems intresting, I think it should keep the playstyle it has (basically the exact oposite of vigilante, be loud, draw the attention, fake claim a role that would make you get attacked), alex made a more in deepth explanation in another post but idk where it is
I agree. I'm not saying remove the alert function; that's not a rework, that's an entirely different role.
Alex has worked on a Vet rework in the past btw.
they said so like 6 months ago, I am still intrested and scared cause vet is my fav role
Also, I suggested a role like 2 months ago that could also work as a rework for crusader
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=118858
I'll read it and get back to you.
Thoughs on it?
TrillPhonk wrote:So, you think town is overpowered and needs a balance, and in order to balance that you want to *checks notes* buff town roles?
XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:TrillPhonk wrote:So, you think town is overpowered and needs a balance, and in order to balance that you want to *checks notes* buff town roles?
XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
So you only read 2 role changes and assume that is the entire post
XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
TheTraitorofSalem wrote:First: devs stated that they wont add more coven roles to classic, as much as tracker would be an extremely good addition (as its probably the most balanced role and that is also just as straightforward as sheriff), it wont happen
It should, reconsider this please devs. Tracker, Trapper are Mafia roles!
Another thing is that a role might be balanced for the game and might not break any "balance rule", but it also has to be fun to AT LEAST have in a game, a vanillazer wouldnt be fun neither to play as or against (I think framer kinda has the same problem)
There's a lot that's unfun about this game. The most fun I've had is where I make big brain plays and the communication aspect. I disagree about it not being fun to play as. I reckon it would be hilarious to take someone's role. Sure, it might not be fun to lose your fun. But neither is dying, neither is getting guilt as Vigilante, neither is becoming useless as Sheriff, neither is playing Spy.
Boring roles (spy) should be fixed, the sheriff one can be changed, but anyway that is fine because it happens due to a condition being achieved, and not another player removing the fun, vigi guilt isnt an excuse because it is achieved for YOUR actions, and dying isnt an excuse either because that would mean any role that can kill is bad
Its the same problem as bmer, some ppl might like silencing others, but literally the only one who has fun with it is the bmer themselves
Day kills arent (and shouldnt) be a thing, except of lynches ofc
They should be. Perfectly fun and balanced. All of the other 100s of Mafia games out there have had day shooting and they're far more balanced than this game.
Comparing with other games isnt a valid excuse, those games are different and have diferent mechanics
Response to Kirize12
I don't think additional TI's is the way to go, and I also don't think Retributionist is in any need of buffs although it would prevent RNG-based swing.
Allowing Retributionist to use all town roles isn't a buff. Retributionist is set-up dependent. Allowing it to use all roles (including Jailor once its nerfed) makes it equally balanced no matter which roles spawn.
It's been suggested and shot down before, as people don't want to play as Citizens. I can understand why. If it were implemented it would only need to stay in effect until the Auditor dies.
The current small community that supports tp/lo have shot it down before. I played this game back in 2014 (had a long hiatus) and the game was more balanced with Citizens in the game. I'm not saying bring Citizens back entirely, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with Vanillizers. A portion of this game should still be about scum-reading and discussion. Having your role snatched away is more fun then dying, playing as spy, being useless as a Retri or gaining guilt as a Vigilante. It should still be trialed though. You say we need more NE games in the role and the Vanillizer is the best contestant for this.
No, is not the tplo community, is almost the entire playerbase because they know this role is not fun (tbh I doubt many people would like to play AS this role, and if you think its hilarious then it makes it look like you have fun by tapping a button and ruining other people fun, an NE version of transporter is waaaay better than this
If that were the case, Mayor would be the sole Town Government role and would take Jailor's place as the "constant" in the rolelist. This wouldn't change the lack of variety (there is a Jailor in every game) but it WOULD mean the game is more dull as Mayor is by far less fun to play than Jailor, at least until it can whisper/be whispered to and healed by a doctor.
I don't think Marshall is a worthwhile addition, it doesn't add anything to the game. Maybe we could suggest it as an alternate ability to Mayor if it's still not as powerful as Jailor with Town Government.
Marshall is a fun and balanced role and is arguably a lot less OP then Mayor. Id prefer it under Town Government with Mayor and 1 or 2 other roles. A Cop role with a 1 shot day time gun would be a good contender, of course with a Mafia counter-part. Jailor yes should be a JOAT but should still be equally powerful as Vigilante. Vigilante having more kill potential, but Jailor having that investigative attribute and unstoppable attack
I don't think removing Day 1 is a good idea, your building a jail cell is creative but I like the nerfs I have. I also don't think removing protection is a good idea since it's no longer a Jack of All Trades.
Ok, leave Day 1... but 2 Executes, no N1 Jailing, basic protection, no more "your ability failed because your target was in jail"
Jailor's Guilt is more balanced because it creates risk in Vigilante shots, which nerfs Town and buffs Evils. I'm open to considering guiltless but would need a bullet removed, which means Jailor by consequence would only be able to have a single execute.
Its more balanced in that way, but its also unbalanced as it makes Jailor a lot stronger then Vigilante, when Vigilante should be the dominant Town Killing role. Guiltless without a bullet removed OR Guiltless but you lose a bullet when you shoot a town member, so then you're still guaranteed 2 shots if you shoot a town member.
I highly doubt the guilt mechanic was there for yhrowers, but anyway, it shouldnt be removed entirely vecause it makes the role more balanced and discourage mindless shots
I wouldn't like that. It would make Godfather less fun to play as well as all innocent would now be confirmed not Mafia.
Sheriff should still be a threat that evils should still have to deal with. When I play as Mafia, most of the times I couldn't give a fuck about Sheriff. They're either NE or won't find shit anyway. TPS, Lookouts and Jailors are far too much of a priority to deal with as Mafia. Other roles should be just as important to deal with, depending on the player. Nerf confirmability, nerf tp/lo, nerf Jailor and then Protectives and Lookouts are nowhere near as much as a threat. Framer is the main role in the Mafia that should mess with Investigative roles and have detection immunity. So making Framer appear as Innocent would not confirm all innocents as not Mafia. Disguiser shouldn't have such a detrimental effect on Sheriffs.
This is how it used to work, the reason I'm opposed to it is because it doesn't actually benefit Sheriff that much but WILL be harsh on Neutrals. Suspicious/Innocent is better.
In ranked what's the difference between Mafia and Innocent. Your target is a member of the Mafia has better flavour though. Your target is Suspicious sucks. Leave Neutral Evils/Benigns as Innocents, but SK, Mafia, Coven, WW (full moon) should still be revealed by Sheriff
Amnesiac is impossible to fakeclaim unless the notification for remembering is removed. Adding NB's to Ranked is also tricky.
There doesn't need to be a notification there. Its dumb that there is, remove it. Add NBS under Neutral Random.
Tracker feels fine where it is, as coven exclusive, unless a cooler TI replaces its slot in the lineup.
Highly disagree. Tracker is a classic Mafia role. Good role to fake claim with a small skill element and its a balanced role. Should 100% be in the game. Would reduce how many Lookouts spawn as well.
Only way that could work is if Jailor was changed entirely, otherwise it would create swing.
Yes nerf to equal power as other TKS and then remove it from being guaranteed in every game and add in under TK/TR.
You mean rename it or replace its spot so TS can only spawn through RT? If the second, I'd be OK with that.
TS can only spawn through RT. Town Support has too many roles that you'll never be able to equally balanced. Bit of a dumping ground currently. Town Government for Mayor and more roles.
Agreed. Mafia Lookout comes to mind.
Makes Lookout less confirmable, but wouldn't reduce tp/lo I'm Jailor. Mafia Lookout also bad with Spy as it is. Mafia 1 shot day kill role and a Vanillizer would work better.
I don't think an Investigator list reshuffle would be effective, I think Invest needs to be reworked and the devs have said they want to do that.
Elaborate more on the rework
I...don't think this is true.
Are you sure? I see so many games with double Consorts that have 3 Escorts. So many Hypno games with more Transporters then there should be. There needs to be a % chance of a role spawning like there is in SC2Mafia. Notice when you play SC2Mafia that there's hardly ever games where there's lots of the same roles. No games with 4 Bus Drivers, Vigilantes, Veterans, Bodyguards. Investigative roles should have a higher chance of spawning, probably about 15%, but Bus Driver should have like a %3 chance.
there isnt any proof of this besides confirmation bias
You mean Sc2 Coroner? I don't think it would fit into ToS. I think a role that can talk to dead is better, but would need to be restructured to fit Salem.
Yes, I mean SC2 Coroner. Talking to the dead is broken. Useless role outside of Ranked. Ranked Practice people don't stay. An Investigative role that invests dead players would work better, even with a limited amount of uses 3?
Roles spawning in multiple alignments isn't something we do in Salem, if you'd like that addition you'd need to defend why. Personally I like things as they are, it's simpler.
Simplier is not better. This game might actually be a lot better if it was more complicated. I do agree now that Transporter does not belong in protective. But there are a couple of roles that do deserve to belong in multiple alignments. Crusader should defeintly be in Town Killing/Protective as it can get multiple kills against evils, especially if the Crusader knows what hes doing. Trapper also belongs in support. Spy could also be reworked as a support/investigative role. Bodyguard isn't reliable enough to be a TK role. But still, some roles should have multiple alignments.
This is a better list than above, still far from ideal. Both your rolelists are 9v6 btw, you mentioned that as a problem in the original post.
Any Random is no where near as bad as 2 predetermined Neutral Roles. Mafia and the Neutrals don't know if there's 1 or 2 neutrals.
Any can spawn an extra town, and right now the only neutral that is good for ranked is witch, because every other neutral includes kingmaking, also vampires can spawn which is obviusly a super bad thing
Multiple alignments are for Sc2, not ToS, unless you can convince me why they're good for this game.
More claim space,. less confirmability. Harder to work out the mechanical puzzle of which RT is which. Not all roles should have multiple alignments, but there are a couple that should fit under a few.
I'm OK with this reworked Spy, but should probably be limited to detecting evil/good so as to not step on Trapper's turf.
evils then or could just see which alignments visit their target. Without any information on which role or how many from each alignment visited. Your target was visited by the Town, A Serial Killer and the COven tonight!
I do like the idea of daykills, but should be limited to a Town Government role as they are confirmable.
A Unique role with a Mafia counter part is the best way to go. But yes, should be under Town Government with Mayor and Marshall
Confirmable Town Protective, no like.
No instant confirmable. Would be easy to fake claim. Armour you can give would need to be limited to 3. Obviously a player wouldn't be able to use Armour on top of their other abillities. Could easily fake claim this and said you gave armour to a team mate.
Kirize12 wrote:Soulshade55r wrote:I believe Jailors should lose their protective abilities in jail and lose a possible execution, With no guilt other then losing the ability to exe.
Jailor shouldn't lose protective ability in jail, just nerf it to Basic Defense. Jailor's role in the game is a Jack of all Trades, and that should stay. Losing the execution must go though.
And Jailor does need guilt of some sort, because it can talk to its target privately so there has to be some punishment for making the wrong execute.
Vigilante should almost always lose shots on guilt instead of death, I think 2 town deaths for one player is way too swingy and punishing, I would say to balance this reduce it to 2 bullets but if 3 bullets is seemingly more balanced then thats fine.
Vigilante should lose shots on guilt instead of death, but its bullets should be kept as is. That way it has some advantage over Jailor so rolling Vigilante doesn't feel cheap. Of course, Jailor will always be the more powerful role, but at least Vigilante will, in some games, be able to shoot players.
I think adding something such as "Town Power" is fine, I doubt the devs would do it & Town Power would need scaling Mayor having their reveal and 3 votes (being able to be protected by Doc's). Somewhat balance that.
Mayor should be able to be healed by Doctor, alongside being able to whisper.
I think their still needs to be ways to prevent whisper the "town power" meta even if jailors not in everygame, So outing early game should have lead to a secured kill such as giving godfather a one type way to bypass protective abilities. Or at least nerfing chain protection in someway will go a long way to prevent outing.
A Mafia Lookout would help with that immensely, as would the NE Stalker that is in TG.
Kirize12 wrote:A Jack of All Trades implies an ability in each category - Protective, Killing, Investigative, and Support. Removing Jailor's protection means it is not a true JOAT; weakening it by making it only Basic Defense is the answer. And Jailor doesn't need an Investigative ability baked in, because it has one - interrogation via private chat to check players for their roles. If you really want to nerf Jailor to Mayor's level, which I do too, the best way to do that is to make it so it cannot be protected while jailing, while allowing Mayor to be healed by a doctor and also allowing it to whisper and be whispered to. This allows Mayor to be the loud and proud leader, while Jailor leads from the shadows. If both share a Town Government slot, they're both leaders of the town with the most powerful ability, which feels fair considering Mayor would be the only true confirmable role since confirming yourself as Jailor would be a tactical misplay. I also don't like Retributionist's role currently, the skill ceiling feels low and it isn't a good fakeclaim due to its uniqueness. It's JOAT ability also depends on predetermined roles that switch every game.
Mafia Lookout, provided it also has the ability to Track and Watch mafia members, is widely agreed upon that it would likely be the Mafia's best role, since it can gather mass amounts of information at once which Consigliere is much more gradual in doing albeit more direct.
Vigilante can't kill Witch because Witch has Basic defense and Vigilante has a Powerful attack. There is no defense for "Scum Only", I agree that there should be but it needs to be integrated in a way that isn't clunky. In addition, if that were the case Witch would need to have Invincible Defense against evil attacks, including lethal status effects like douses and poison. Both of which should happen.
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests