Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.
Joacgroso wrote:That seems sensible. It's a shame that witch is the only role with that goal, especially considering it can't spawn in coven. I suppose exe/jester could be moved to "neutral lynching", as someone else suggested some time ago.
What should be used to replace that slot in ranked? Another NE?
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.
Joacgroso wrote:Adding a NK would bring back kingmaking scenarios, which were your main complaint, right?
Crona111 wrote:Joacgroso wrote:Adding a NK would bring back kingmaking scenarios, which were your main complaint, right?
Yes (kingmaker scenarios still suck) but SK is far more detrimental to town then an exe because it can't win with town. Exe can become an unkillable (not including lynching) townie if it wants.
Lesser of two evils tbf
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Crona111 wrote:Joacgroso wrote:Adding a NK would bring back kingmaking scenarios, which were your main complaint, right?
Yes (kingmaker scenarios still suck) but SK is far more detrimental to town then an exe because it can't win with town. Exe can become an unkillable (not including lynching) townie if it wants.
Lesser of two evils tbf
Yeah NK is bad for ranked, what we need is a new NE with witch wincon, but if that is never added then Kirize list sounds good
Jailor
TI
TP
TK
TS
RT×5
Gf
Mafioso
RM
RM
Witch
Altho I would make jailor and mayor unable to spawn, and would change jailor for TK
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.
blackaxe3 wrote:I completely disagree with this. Executioner is not a bad role at all. And the possibility of Jester in Ranked is good too. The reason why these roles work is because they make accusations and lynches not always 100% trustworthy. This forma the backbone of the deception element in the day phase. The player calling this person mafia could be an executioner, or this player we want to lynch might be a Jester.
On the other hand, Witch is an awful role with an awful win condition. There’s a reason why BMG got rid of it in Coven. Witch is essentially a very weak Consort that:
- does not know it’s teammates
- has a unique message, making its presence known
- must survive to the end, which is too difficult
- is immediately outed as witch if a vigilante shoots them
As such, I have designed their list below. It has gone through a few changes but I believe this is the most fair for Ranked.
Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Support
Town Protective
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Executioner
I removed Witch because of the reasons stated above.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.
Joacgroso wrote:Also, witches weren't really removed from coven. They were just turned into coven leaders.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.
blackaxe3 wrote:I completely disagree with this. Executioner is not a bad role at all. And the possibility of Jester in Ranked is good too. The reason why these roles work is because they make accusations and lynches not always 100% trustworthy. This forma the backbone of the deception element in the day phase. The player calling this person mafia could be an executioner, or this player we want to lynch might be a Jester.
On the other hand, Witch is an awful role with an awful win condition. There’s a reason why BMG got rid of it in Coven. Witch is essentially a very weak Consort that:
- does not know it’s teammates
- has a unique message, making its presence known
- must survive to the end, which is too difficult
- is immediately outed as witch if a vigilante shoots them
As such, I have designed their list below. It has gone through a few changes but I believe this is the most fair for Ranked.
Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Support
Town Protective
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Executioner
I removed Witch because of the reasons stated above.
blackaxe3 wrote:I completely disagree with this. Executioner is not a bad role at all. And the possibility of Jester in Ranked is good too. The reason why these roles work is because they make accusations and lynches not always 100% trustworthy. This forma the backbone of the deception element in the day phase. The player calling this person mafia could be an executioner, or this player we want to lynch might be a Jester.
On the other hand, Witch is an awful role with an awful win condition. There’s a reason why BMG got rid of it in Coven. Witch is essentially a very weak Consort that:
- does not know it’s teammates
- has a unique message, making its presence known
- must survive to the end, which is too difficult
- is immediately outed as witch if a vigilante shoots them
As such, I have designed their list below. It has gone through a few changes but I believe this is the most fair for Ranked.
Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Support
Town Protective
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Executioner
I removed Witch because of the reasons stated above.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.
Joacgroso wrote:I like exes the way they are, but I agree that they aren't good for ranked.
If you want to change them, maybe you could take inspiration from the fearmonger, a role from blood on the clocktower? That game is kinda different from ToS, but maybe the role can work with some tweaks.
I'm not a balance expert, but maybe we could have them pick a target and 2 red herrings each night, which will be revealed the next day to the town. If the true target is town and is lynched the next day (optionally: this ability only works if the exe is among the first half of people who voted that person up), evils win. The reworked exe could still win like a witch. If you don't want to be so punishing, maybe make the exe rb all townies if he executes his target.
Although as I said, I like current exes.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.
Joacgroso wrote:Also, Kirize, you quoted the devs to state a lot of their intentions and motives, but do you have any sources for that?
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.
Kirize12 wrote:Could you remind me exactly what you mean? The only ones I can think of are putting NB and NK back in Ranked and why Witch can't spawn in Coven.
Kirize12 wrote:we need Neutral dynamics
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.
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