Executioner in Ranked/RP

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Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Crona111 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:25 pm

Executioner is probably the worst role ever made. Okay that's an exaggeration, but as a role it sucks in ranked. It's a role that, after winning, pretty much either wastes the town's time, or becomes an extra vote for whoever they feel, turning a lot of endgames to begging/pleading for the executioner to vote for whoever they want. If they don't win, then they just become an annoying nuisance that gets ignored, and if their target dies, well now we're dealing with a Jester. A role that either annoys everyone or gets lynched and destroys either faction. Takes a lot of fun and skill out of the game, and hopefully if we ever do get another Ranked list, Executioner can be substituted with another role. Or just make it not win with Town, because why does it win with the faction it's supposed to disrupt?
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:27 pm

Exe and jest should be moved out of the NE subalignment and ranked

And a new NE with witch wincon should be added
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Joacgroso » Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:54 pm

That seems sensible. It's a shame that witch is the only role with that goal, especially considering it can't spawn in coven. I suppose exe/jester could be moved to "neutral lynching", as someone else suggested some time ago.

What should be used to replace that slot in ranked? Another NE?
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Crona111 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:59 pm

Joacgroso wrote:That seems sensible. It's a shame that witch is the only role with that goal, especially considering it can't spawn in coven. I suppose exe/jester could be moved to "neutral lynching", as someone else suggested some time ago.

What should be used to replace that slot in ranked? Another NE?


Unsure, adding another town makes them more OP and adding another mafia isn't good. We *could* add a NK like serial killer, but at the same time it was removed for a reason.
Damn I'm too lazy to add anything.

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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Joacgroso » Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:12 pm

Adding a NK would bring back kingmaking scenarios, which were your main complaint, right?
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Crona111 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:06 pm

Joacgroso wrote:Adding a NK would bring back kingmaking scenarios, which were your main complaint, right?

Yes (kingmaker scenarios still suck) but SK is far more detrimental to town then an exe because it can't win with town. Exe can become an unkillable (not including lynching) townie if it wants.

Lesser of two evils tbf
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:10 am

Crona111 wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:Adding a NK would bring back kingmaking scenarios, which were your main complaint, right?

Yes (kingmaker scenarios still suck) but SK is far more detrimental to town then an exe because it can't win with town. Exe can become an unkillable (not including lynching) townie if it wants.

Lesser of two evils tbf


Yeah NK is bad for ranked, what we need is a new NE with witch wincon, but if that is never added then Kirize list sounds good

Jailor
TI
TP
TK
TS
RT×5
Gf
Mafioso
RM
RM
Witch

Altho I would make jailor and mayor unable to spawn, and would change jailor for TK
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Crona111 » Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:44 am

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Crona111 wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:Adding a NK would bring back kingmaking scenarios, which were your main complaint, right?

Yes (kingmaker scenarios still suck) but SK is far more detrimental to town then an exe because it can't win with town. Exe can become an unkillable (not including lynching) townie if it wants.

Lesser of two evils tbf


Yeah NK is bad for ranked, what we need is a new NE with witch wincon, but if that is never added then Kirize list sounds good

Jailor
TI
TP
TK
TS
RT×5
Gf
Mafioso
RM
RM
Witch

Altho I would make jailor and mayor unable to spawn, and would change jailor for TK


Why not have

GF
Mafioso
Mafia Support
Mafia Deceptive

To avoid 2 framer games or something
Damn I'm too lazy to add anything.

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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:43 am

Then the second someone is cleaned town will know their information is 100% trustworthy, since no one could have been framed, disguised or forged. Basically you can use one RM to clear up what the other RM can be.

Also, we wouldn't get to have double consort games, which is a shame.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby blackaxe3 » Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:39 am

I completely disagree with this. Executioner is not a bad role at all. And the possibility of Jester in Ranked is good too. The reason why these roles work is because they make accusations and lynches not always 100% trustworthy. This forma the backbone of the deception element in the day phase. The player calling this person mafia could be an executioner, or this player we want to lynch might be a Jester.

On the other hand, Witch is an awful role with an awful win condition. There’s a reason why BMG got rid of it in Coven. Witch is essentially a very weak Consort that:
- does not know it’s teammates
- has a unique message, making its presence known
- must survive to the end, which is too difficult
- is immediately outed as witch if a vigilante shoots them

As such, I have designed their list below. It has gone through a few changes but I believe this is the most fair for Ranked.

Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Support
Town Protective
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Executioner

I removed Witch because of the reasons stated above.
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Melon King - when someone named themselves Pumpkin King
Godfather - for role theme or to just bait people
Cottan Mother - to cause confusion
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:01 pm

blackaxe3 wrote:I completely disagree with this. Executioner is not a bad role at all. And the possibility of Jester in Ranked is good too. The reason why these roles work is because they make accusations and lynches not always 100% trustworthy. This forma the backbone of the deception element in the day phase. The player calling this person mafia could be an executioner, or this player we want to lynch might be a Jester.

On the other hand, Witch is an awful role with an awful win condition. There’s a reason why BMG got rid of it in Coven. Witch is essentially a very weak Consort that:
- does not know it’s teammates
- has a unique message, making its presence known
- must survive to the end, which is too difficult
- is immediately outed as witch if a vigilante shoots them

As such, I have designed their list below. It has gone through a few changes but I believe this is the most fair for Ranked.

Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Support
Town Protective
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Executioner

I removed Witch because of the reasons stated above.

We don't need NEs to make town unsure about lynching. People forget that the mafia are the ones who should be pushing for misslynches. There are also many mafia roles that can spread misinformation.

Also, witches weren't really removed from coven. They were just turned into coven leaders. About the downsides you mentioned:
-Witches don't know their teammates, but they have a lot of potential allies. They also have an ability that allows them to find the roles of people, and once they witch a mafia member they can get all mafia numbers.
-There are many roles that make their presence known, that isn't such a bad thing. Especially now that hypnotists are a thing.
-Surviving to the end is not that difficult, though it can be unfair if evils kill the witch out of spite. I think witches should win the moment the last townie dies.
-Many roles flat out die when they are shot by a vigi. At least witches get to survive the night. Besides, if the witch was shot by a vig it means they were doing something wrong. I don't think witches should have defense against vigis either.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby blackaxe3 » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:19 pm

Joacgroso wrote:Also, witches weren't really removed from coven. They were just turned into coven leaders.


True, this fixes two of my points:
- CL doesn’t need to survive
- CL knows who’s on its team

This makes CL an actually fun and winnable role.
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Godfather - for role theme or to just bait people
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:28 pm

My point is that witches weren't "removed" for being bad, just because the devs felt like making a witch themed faction. I personally think witch is already a fun and winnable role.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Crona111 » Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:04 pm

blackaxe3 wrote:I completely disagree with this. Executioner is not a bad role at all. And the possibility of Jester in Ranked is good too. The reason why these roles work is because they make accusations and lynches not always 100% trustworthy. This forma the backbone of the deception element in the day phase. The player calling this person mafia could be an executioner, or this player we want to lynch might be a Jester.

On the other hand, Witch is an awful role with an awful win condition. There’s a reason why BMG got rid of it in Coven. Witch is essentially a very weak Consort that:
- does not know it’s teammates
- has a unique message, making its presence known
- must survive to the end, which is too difficult
- is immediately outed as witch if a vigilante shoots them

As such, I have designed their list below. It has gone through a few changes but I believe this is the most fair for Ranked.

Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Support
Town Protective
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Executioner

I removed Witch because of the reasons stated above.


I don't understand how this makes it "fair" at all. Mafia loses an uninformed ally in this new list, town gains an ally while also retaining the potential to gain an ally with the exe. It's literally an 11v4 if exe sides with town, 10v5 is exe doesn't. Compare that to current list where it's 10v5 if exe sides with town and 9v6 if exe sides with mafia.

I don't get how witch is Consort in any way. It doesn't roleblock, isn't a mafia role. It controls and gets consig results with a temporary shield. Literally nothing like consort.

Witch will be known no matter what? It's quite literally on the rolelist. It's no secret that that there's a witch.

Witch's wincon is trash? How? It prevents kingmaker scenarios while making a non-mafia enemy for town.

Witch has the ability to find it's allies. Knowing it's allies off the bat is super overpowered, as Witch can control others while figuring out who they are. If mafia had that power off the bat they'd be near unstoppable.

Surviving to the end isn't difficult, if you know what you're doing. Getting shot by vigi by any evil is bad. Nearly every mafia role dies immediately, while GF and exe also gets outed too.
Damn I'm too lazy to add anything.

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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:06 pm

blackaxe3 wrote:I completely disagree with this. Executioner is not a bad role at all. And the possibility of Jester in Ranked is good too. The reason why these roles work is because they make accusations and lynches not always 100% trustworthy. This forma the backbone of the deception element in the day phase. The player calling this person mafia could be an executioner, or this player we want to lynch might be a Jester.

On the other hand, Witch is an awful role with an awful win condition. There’s a reason why BMG got rid of it in Coven. Witch is essentially a very weak Consort that:
- does not know it’s teammates
- has a unique message, making its presence known
- must survive to the end, which is too difficult
- is immediately outed as witch if a vigilante shoots them

As such, I have designed their list below. It has gone through a few changes but I believe this is the most fair for Ranked.

Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Support
Town Protective
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Executioner

I removed Witch because of the reasons stated above.


If you see witch as a consort then thats your problem, its wincon is the wincon that all neutral evils should have, that being said, exe has 2 options if you want to keep it in ranked

1, make them unable to win with town (this would need the addition of abilities, I dont like it because having to accomplish 2 wincons seems unfair)

2, make them die after winning, boring

The best thing is to remove tbem, in your list the thing can easily become an 11v4, is not anywhere near balanced
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:33 pm

I like exes the way they are, but I agree that they aren't good for ranked.

If you want to change them, maybe you could take inspiration from the fearmonger, a role from blood on the clocktower? That game is kinda different from ToS, but maybe the role can work with some tweaks.

I'm not a balance expert, but maybe we could have them pick a target and 2 red herrings each night, which will be revealed the next day to the town. If the true target is town and is lynched the next day (optionally: this ability only works if the exe is among the first half of people who voted that person up), evils win. The reworked exe could still win like a witch. If you don't want to be so punishing, maybe make the exe rb all townies if he executes his target.

Although as I said, I like current exes.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:55 pm

Joacgroso wrote:I like exes the way they are, but I agree that they aren't good for ranked.

If you want to change them, maybe you could take inspiration from the fearmonger, a role from blood on the clocktower? That game is kinda different from ToS, but maybe the role can work with some tweaks.

I'm not a balance expert, but maybe we could have them pick a target and 2 red herrings each night, which will be revealed the next day to the town. If the true target is town and is lynched the next day (optionally: this ability only works if the exe is among the first half of people who voted that person up), evils win. The reworked exe could still win like a witch. If you don't want to be so punishing, maybe make the exe rb all townies if he executes his target.

Although as I said, I like current exes.


Current exe and current jester are fine, but not for ranked, thats the thing

Vamps can be MAYBE aceptable on rolelist that revolve around them, but they suck in every other mode
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:16 pm

I completely agree with that, I guess I wasn't being clear enough.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:11 pm

But what if I think that reviving isnt a good mechanic? For ppl who know me, I have always hated roles that affect lynching/voting

Mayor is a problem, but not so big because its a town role so it can be used against their own team, GA can only appear in chaos modes so it isnt a problem either, that being said I still think that no more roles that affect voting should be added
Mafia roles that prevent someone from voting or do something similar? Just as overpowered as a TK that cannot kill town

Town role that does something similar? Its overpowered too, but at least it can mess up and backslash

Neutral roles that affect voting in any way? Thrre is no way to not make that a chaotic ability, and I dont think that a role made solely for chaos modes is worth


Alex does the same as me but with roles that affect the chat (they have shown their hate to bmer several times)

The same can be said for revival, reviving imo isnt a good mechanic, regardless of the faction of that role, because it makes the progress of the enemy go back with not much effort, current retri IN THEORY does that, but its fine because
Its only 1 night
Does actually need effort
Can be distrupted by forger or janitor
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Joacgroso » Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:39 pm

Also, Kirize, you quoted the devs to state a lot of their intentions and motives, but do you have any sources for that?
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Crona111 » Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:49 pm

Joacgroso wrote:Also, Kirize, you quoted the devs to state a lot of their intentions and motives, but do you have any sources for that?


For the kingmaker thing one of the main selling points of TiS is theres no kingmaker whatsoever. Its also why they removed NK, I explicitly remember an old post about that
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby blackaxe3 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:50 pm

Although many players don’t enjoy it, I’m personally a big fan of kingmaking. But that’s beside the point anyway, because Executioner RARELY sides Town. This is why the current list is so stacked against Town, because with one mislynch (usually the executioner’s target) Town auto loses. I don’t want the game to be decided Day 2. I want the game to be decided on skill rather than luck. Executioner relies on how skilled you are to Lynch your target. Witch relies on how lucky you are to find the mafia and not auto lose because you died.

And I have actually been playing since before Coven was a thing. I think this is my third account now, not including using a friend’s account in 2015 for a while. However, I don’t believe this matters as account age is useless as a measuring factor. I know that many newer players have more knowledge than older players, because knowledge is based on how much you are willing to learn, not how long you have to learn it.
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Royal Match - my default pick
Melon King - when someone named themselves Pumpkin King
Godfather - for role theme or to just bait people
Cottan Mother - to cause confusion
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Joacgroso » Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:05 pm

Figuring out who the mafia is takes skill, not luck. If mafia attacks the witch it's because they are bad at targetting people, but a good mafia won't attack the witch except maybe on night 1.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Joacgroso » Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:02 am

Kirize12 wrote:Could you remind me exactly what you mean? The only ones I can think of are putting NB and NK back in Ranked and why Witch can't spawn in Coven.


This one doesn't need a source, but it still intrigued me because you stated it as a fact without explaining why:
Kirize12 wrote:we need Neutral dynamics

Also:
Spoiler:
Kirize12 wrote:They just didn't want confusion with Coven Leader

The post you linked said that witches were turned into CL, but it didn't explain the motive.
Kirize12 wrote:Kingmaking was an intended feature of the game to promote diplomacy.

Kirize12 wrote:Achilles actually directly told me why the Mayor change was added. “It was suggested on the forums.”

Kirize12 wrote:Witch shield - it was meant to prevent crosskills, not nerf Vig


I also don't like revivals, not only because they confirm people, but also because they feel cheap. Even though I liked being revived when I was town, it felt unfair when the person I killed n1 was brought back just because there was a retri, without mafia being able to do anything to prevent it. Being able to silence good players is one of the core aspects of mafia, and I don't think that should be taken away (revival is worse than TPs because a dead person had access to dead chat).

Also, don't GAs inhibit core mechanics by preventing people from voting against someone? If that player is their last enemy, GAs can waste a day. I agree that since it's a chaos role it doesn't really matter, though. But if devs really bring NBs back to competitive gamemodes, they should get rid of this luck-based mechanic (the protected player is randomized).
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby WitchHouse40k » Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:06 pm

I seriously wonder if people who keep suggesting 10v5 rolelists have ever played ranked in their lives or are just trolling, how can someone be so clueless and make so bad suggestions unironically
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