Vampire Hunter, Framer, and Disguiser are all hard counters.

[SilverCruz]

Vampire Hunter is obvious. It does nothing but kill Vampires, and when all the Vampires are gone, it turns into a Vigilante. (Nevermind that Vampires are an inherently broken role because they change the win condition of other players).

Framer does nothing but change the results received by Sheriffs and Investigators, and when all Sheriffs and/or Investigators are gone, it's nothing but a vote because it doesn't start doing something else instead.

Disguiser does nothing but change the results received by Sheriffs, Investigators, and Spies, and when all Sheriffs, Investigators, and/or Spies are gone, it's nothing but a vote because it doesn't start doing something else instead. Not only that, it's incredibly bad at the Spy part because it supplies evidence. If the Disguiser goes down first, then the Spy knows there's a Disguiser and can review who the Mafia was visiting over and over again to see who's probably part of the Mafia. If someone the Disguiser visited goes down first, then the Spy knows there's probably a Disguiser and can, again, review who the Mafia was visiting over and over again to see who's probably part of the Mafia.

This isn't in Role Ideas because I'm not going to actually present any elaborate concepts for any of this here, I just wanted to point that out.

[cob709]

It's natural that Disguiser and Framer are hard counter roles to town investigatives, as they are deception roles.

[SilverCruz]

So are Forger, Janitor, and Hypnotist, but they still have something to do even without a Spy, Investigator, or Sheriff.

[syjfwbaobfwl]

So are Forger, Janitor, and Hypnotist, but they still have something to do even without a Spy, Investigator, or Sheriff.

Disg also decieves LO, so in classic all TIs should be dead for it to become useless (which usually doesnt happens untill endgame)

Once forger and jani are out of cleans/forgeries they are nothing more than a vote

Hypno is just a vote since the start because its almost as UP as framer and it barely can do anything useful

Once everyone has claimed and you know witch, consig is just a vote for mafia

Once all visiting roles are gone, ambusher is just a vote to mafia

Once TK are gone and TI checked everyone, consort is just a vote for mafia

[dbpeanut]

Framer should logically get a buff though. It's easily the weakest mafia role by far. Maybe make it impact night results like telling a doctor that their target was attacked or telling a Crusader that their target was protected even though there was no deaths?

Disguiser should also get a buff making it essentially swap results not unlike a Trans can.

As for VH, it's honestly the most useless hard counter. It's so useless that Mafia/Coven rarely targets VHs.

I also want to add that I think Janitor and Forger should both get buffs by giving the killing party the true role of the person cleaned or forged. Why's this? To support a fake claim or just to provide information town can't have. It would also quitproof and deathproof Janitor and Forger.

[cob709]

So are Forger, Janitor, and Hypnotist, but they still have something to do even without a Spy, Investigator, or Sheriff.

That's because they're different roles with separate purposes

[SilverCruz]

Once forger and jani are out of cleans/forgeries they are nothing more than a vote

Hypno is just a vote since the start because its almost as UP as framer and it barely can do anything useful

Once everyone has claimed and you know witch, consig is just a vote for mafia

Once all visiting roles are gone, ambusher is just a vote to mafia

Once TK are gone and TI checked everyone, consort is just a vote for mafia

But Forger and Janitor have a massive effect before they get to that point and can affect any role.

Consigliere has a massive effect.

Ambusher has a massive effect.

Consort... can do stuff that has... an effect...

I don't like Escort and Consort too much either, if you didn't notice.

Framer should logically get a buff though. It's easily the weakest mafia role by far. Maybe make it impact night results like telling a doctor that their target was attacked or telling a Crusader that their target was protected even though there was no deaths?

Disguiser should also get a buff making it essentially swap results not unlike a Trans can.

As for VH, it's honestly the most useless hard counter. It's so useless that Mafia/Coven rarely targets VHs.

I also want to add that I think Janitor and Forger should both get buffs by giving the killing party the true role of the person cleaned or forged. Why's this? To support a fake claim or just to provide information town can't have. It would also quitproof and deathproof Janitor and Forger.

Honestly I've had the thought of just reformatting Framer into a Mafia Lookout where it visits to anyone who is presently framed. That'd probably be a little extreme, though, and detract from its meta-role of stacking Classic in the Town's favor. I don't think Forger gets the original role of its target, by the way? Janitor does, but not Forger. I guess you could say Forger is stronger but gets less information. I don't necessarily disagree about uptuning them, though.

That's because they're different roles with separate purposes

And that justifies Framer and Disguiser being so pathetic how exactly?

[cob709]

That's because they're different roles with separate purposes

And that justifies Framer and Disguiser being so pathetic how exactly?

Why do you think they're pathetic?

[dbpeanut]

Framer is an actually pathetic role, given that it does 2 things- frames someone as a framer (which is very obvious) or frames someone as sus (which is easily disproven). There's only 2 possible fixes that would make it less pathetic- 1, make it frame someone as a random set of roles each time (but keeping in line with invest results), 2, make it negatively impact every role in the fitting way, such as making BG think they protected their target.
Disguiser can be seen as pathetic because it provides more info to the town than misinformation, but I do not see it as pathetic, I just see it as flawed since you can tell if someone's disguised very easily.

[cob709]

Framer is an actually pathetic role, given that it does 2 things- frames someone as a framer (which is very obvious) or frames someone as sus (which is easily disproven). There's only 2 possible fixes that would make it less pathetic- 1, make it frame someone as a random set of roles each time (but keeping in line with invest results), 2, make it negatively impact every role in the fitting way, such as making BG think they protected their target.
Disguiser can be seen as pathetic because it provides more info to the town than misinformation, but I do not see it as pathetic, I just see it as flawed since you can tell if someone's disguised very easily.

The possibility of a Framer and Disguiser creates reasonable doubt. Though, I do agree that their utility should be expanded.

[dbpeanut]

Framer is an actually pathetic role, given that it does 2 things- frames someone as a framer (which is very obvious) or frames someone as sus (which is easily disproven). There's only 2 possible fixes that would make it less pathetic- 1, make it frame someone as a random set of roles each time (but keeping in line with invest results), 2, make it negatively impact every role in the fitting way, such as making BG think they protected their target.
Disguiser can be seen as pathetic because it provides more info to the town than misinformation, but I do not see it as pathetic, I just see it as flawed since you can tell if someone's disguised very easily.

The possibility of a Framer and Disguiser creates reasonable doubt.

Yeah- like 5-6 years ago.
Framer's results are LITERALLY Framer, Vampire, Jester, Hex Master.
That's not reasonable doubt, that's signal boosting that they're framed.
Disguiser is at least reasonable doubt, but quickly disproven if someone is either confirmed town or if they died that night- instant game over in some cases.
I mean this in the actual worst way possible- Framer actually used to be really good. They used to frame someone as Mafioso and since results were different, they could also have plausible denialbility whenever they were found themselves.
Now, it's quite literally a beacon invest result.
Disguiser is a beacon Spy result too.

[SilverCruz]

Why do you think they're pathetic?

Framer - No feedback, requires at least one of two specific roles (one of which is itself, the Sheriff, is also mediocre at the best of times) to impact literally anything, and is hard countered by the Spy because in a situation where it is obvious from the outset that there is no Disguiser (Classic) or it becomes very quickly reasonable to assume that there might not be a Disguiser (Un/ranked with a Blackmailer or Ambusher who gets an early kill), they ultimately do nothing except give the town more information about who is not a member of the Mafia.

Disguiser - Very similar. No feedback for if it's actually accomplishing anything, requires at least one of three specific roles to impact literally anything, for Sheriff and Investigator in particular it has the same problem as the original Framer where it needs to just arbitrarily pick the same target as them on the same night, and it has no clue whether or not that happened. Lastly, in spite of being geared to screw with the Spy, it ultimately only succeeds in giving the Spy even more information because once it or one of its targets dies, the Spy will be highly likely to pin the other Mafia through reviewing the repeat visits, and even if there are none (the Disguiser died after visiting each other member of the Mafia once, for example) the Spy can still pin them out unless the other Random Mafia is a Consigliere, Framer, or Ambusher because every other Mafia role is a direct killer (Godfather, Mafioso), only wants to visit players who are under attack or who have quit (Forger, Janitor), or has feedback to the target as a result of their visit (Hypnotist, Blackmailer, Consort), and even then it limits the pool quite a bit.

Framer needs to know if/when a target of theirs has been investigated, and probably also be able to choose any investigative result to frame their target as. Aside from the obvious benefits, this would make it easier for the Mafia to use known Jesters (frame them as Bodyguard/Godfather/Arsonist instead of literally not changing their investigation result at all) and, if you let the Framer target Mafia at will (maybe also changing them to Innocent as long as the Reverse Frame persists, though this would make Sheriff even worse when Sheriff really, really doesn't need that, so maybe don't, actually), allow it to enable them to claim outside their bracket without getting caught by Investigator (In Classic, for example, frame the Godfather as something where it can't be instantly pinned down because the Random Town Spy got smacked by the Serial Killer Night 1), though that would infringe on the current Disguiser, I just noticed.

Disguiser, I'd say make it able to forge itself and just select the role it appears to be when it dies because that'd be a useful version of Disguiser V2 that isn't a giant guessing game, and maybe remove its townie visits and investigation modification (since the new Framer proposed here is doing that now), having it instead hide the visits of its target from Lookouts as well (so if the Jailor goes "im jailor tplo on me" and the Bodyguard dies, a Disguiser could facilitate an attack on the Jailor Lookout be damned, or to cover a Blackmailer or Consort who is locking down somebody who's dangerous, but probably protected) and being able to hide its own visits from the Spy at will (probably make it have to choose to let the Spy see it so that not being seen is the default).

Making the Disguiser also make its target immune to Bodyguards outright would be heavy-handed as hell, but it'd also be an alternative to letting the Witch make the Jailor execute by self-targeting as far as screwing up the current Mayor Game Jailor Edition meta goes. I guess if you did that you wouldn't necessarily need the self-Forge (though it'd still be another ability that requires another specific role to work, just one that enables a much more aggressive play than usual and inspires confidence in its play even if that role doesn't actually exist in the round), but I think that self-forging regardless of cause of death or being roleblocked would be a cool and useful thing for a Mafia role to be able to do, just not as its only ability since that'd be kind of boring.

Maybe if it could hear and talk to dead people and resurrect itself at will one time (let's say, for the sake of example, it changes its name to a default name, its original name doesn't get taken off of the Graveyard, and the game doesn't bother to point out that someone just rose from the dead so that if the town's not paying attention they're in trouble. It'd be more effective if it could steal the identity of someone who died the same night it resurrected with them not appearing to die at all, but I feel there was probably a good reason that Disguiser V1 was retired, and even then it'd still need to be able to force-resurrect itself even without someone dying the same night so that it can get back in the game if, for example, it doing so would give the Mafia voting power that day), it could be serviceable without doing something else, but that's still kind of a messy role. It'd also probably always show its true role the second time it dies, i guess. I dunno, just sounds like it needs something else so that it's not too passive while it's alive.

[syjfwbaobfwl]

Disguiser also decieves LO!

So in classic as long as there is 1 TI alive disguiser can do something

[SilverCruz]

So it can already bypass the Lookout, huh?

Didn't know that. It'd still need to be able to bypass Bodyguards if it wanted to be a real meta-buster, though.

[dbpeanut]

I'm of the position that Disguiser should exclusively impact info, same as Framer.
Neither should be able to do it to the same degree as Forger or Janitor, but neither should be almost completely useless.
Disguiser in their current state can only have a strong impact on the game if the stars align and town is lacking in TIs or brains.
Framer in their current state can't even have a mediocre impact unless the town is quite literally braindead.
In effect, both are more likely to give themselves away or other mafia members away, making them a detriment to have on the team.
Unlike Consig, Framer's manipulated info can be fixed or even just considered null.
Unlike Hypnotist, Disguiser's manipulated info can't do more than get the wrong person lynched.
Unlike Consort, neither of them can provide an actual impact to the team.
What other mafia members do, can literally change the outcome of the game, like Consig telling you that 12 is PB or 10 is a secret mayor. Like Hypnotist tricking a doctor into thinking their target was attacked or delaying the game by making Mayor think they're poisoned, leading to a more rash voting phase. Like Forger forging a confirmed doctor into a mafia role or into a vampire which changes how the town treats one another.

I'm of the opinion that Framer or Disguiser, if they're going to manipulate town information, they need to do it well. Otherwise, what's the point of manipulating town information if it's exceedingly obvious that someone was framed or that X obviously didn't kill Y?

[syjfwbaobfwl]

I'm of the position that Disguiser should exclusively impact info, same as Framer.
Neither should be able to do it to the same degree as Forger or Janitor, but neither should be almost completely useless.
Disguiser in their current state can only have a strong impact on the game if the stars align and town is lacking in TIs or brains.
Framer in their current state can't even have a mediocre impact unless the town is quite literally braindead.
In effect, both are more likely to give themselves away or other mafia members away, making them a detriment to have on the team.
Unlike Consig, Framer's manipulated info can be fixed or even just considered null.
Unlike Hypnotist, Disguiser's manipulated info can't do more than get the wrong person lynched.
Unlike Consort, neither of them can provide an actual impact to the team.
What other mafia members do, can literally change the outcome of the game, like Consig telling you that 12 is PB or 10 is a secret mayor. Like Hypnotist tricking a doctor into thinking their target was attacked or delaying the game by making Mayor think they're poisoned, leading to a more rash voting phase. Like Forger forging a confirmed doctor into a mafia role or into a vampire which changes how the town treats one another.

I'm of the opinion that Framer or Disguiser, if they're going to manipulate town information, they need to do it well. Otherwise, what's the point of manipulating town information if it's exceedingly obvious that someone was framed or that X obviously didn't kill Y?

Framer is UP I agree, but the only people who say new disg is useless are the ppl who dont know how to play the role

Also, how can hypno cause more than 1 misslynch? Causing a misslynch as hypno barely happens and its on very specific situations

[dbpeanut]

I'm of the position that Disguiser should exclusively impact info, same as Framer.
Neither should be able to do it to the same degree as Forger or Janitor, but neither should be almost completely useless.
Disguiser in their current state can only have a strong impact on the game if the stars align and town is lacking in TIs or brains.
Framer in their current state can't even have a mediocre impact unless the town is quite literally braindead.
In effect, both are more likely to give themselves away or other mafia members away, making them a detriment to have on the team.
Unlike Consig, Framer's manipulated info can be fixed or even just considered null.
Unlike Hypnotist, Disguiser's manipulated info can't do more than get the wrong person lynched.
Unlike Consort, neither of them can provide an actual impact to the team.
What other mafia members do, can literally change the outcome of the game, like Consig telling you that 12 is PB or 10 is a secret mayor. Like Hypnotist tricking a doctor into thinking their target was attacked or delaying the game by making Mayor think they're poisoned, leading to a more rash voting phase. Like Forger forging a confirmed doctor into a mafia role or into a vampire which changes how the town treats one another.

I'm of the opinion that Framer or Disguiser, if they're going to manipulate town information, they need to do it well. Otherwise, what's the point of manipulating town information if it's exceedingly obvious that someone was framed or that X obviously didn't kill Y?

Framer is UP I agree, but the only people who say new disg is useless are the ppl who dont know how to play the role

Also, how can hypno cause more than 1 misslynch? Causing a misslynch as hypno barely happens and its on very specific situations

3 simple sentences.

"You didn't claim roleblocked"

"You didn't go on poisoned X, Y or Z"

"You didn't claim attacked."

That's all you need to get a friendly fire town kill if they believe your hypno. Which, they often do.

Also, Disguiser is actually useless. I'd certainly like to believe that no role is useless, certainly not 2 roles in the same faction, but I've been in enough games where Lookout doesn't exist or where town legitimately never checks a mafia member.

[syjfwbaobfwl]

I'm of the position that Disguiser should exclusively impact info, same as Framer.
Neither should be able to do it to the same degree as Forger or Janitor, but neither should be almost completely useless.
Disguiser in their current state can only have a strong impact on the game if the stars align and town is lacking in TIs or brains.
Framer in their current state can't even have a mediocre impact unless the town is quite literally braindead.
In effect, both are more likely to give themselves away or other mafia members away, making them a detriment to have on the team.
Unlike Consig, Framer's manipulated info can be fixed or even just considered null.
Unlike Hypnotist, Disguiser's manipulated info can't do more than get the wrong person lynched.
Unlike Consort, neither of them can provide an actual impact to the team.
What other mafia members do, can literally change the outcome of the game, like Consig telling you that 12 is PB or 10 is a secret mayor. Like Hypnotist tricking a doctor into thinking their target was attacked or delaying the game by making Mayor think they're poisoned, leading to a more rash voting phase. Like Forger forging a confirmed doctor into a mafia role or into a vampire which changes how the town treats one another.

I'm of the opinion that Framer or Disguiser, if they're going to manipulate town information, they need to do it well. Otherwise, what's the point of manipulating town information if it's exceedingly obvious that someone was framed or that X obviously didn't kill Y?

Framer is UP I agree, but the only people who say new disg is useless are the ppl who dont know how to play the role

Also, how can hypno cause more than 1 misslynch? Causing a misslynch as hypno barely happens and its on very specific situations

3 simple sentences.

"You didn't claim roleblocked"

"You didn't go on poisoned X, Y or Z"

"You didn't claim attacked."

That's all you need to get a friendly fire town kill if they believe your hypno. Which, they often do.

Also, Disguiser is actually useless. I'd certainly like to believe that no role is useless, certainly not 2 roles in the same faction, but I've been in enough games where Lookout doesn't exist or where town legitimately never checks a mafia member.

Except that

Anyone would claim they were rbed/hypnoed

The hypno poison message is the one that you cannot cure so doc with brain wouldnt waste their time going on them

Annyone would claim attacked at healed



AT BEST you can cause a misslynch by a "I cc witched" situation, but thats only if you hypno esc or med because otherwise the guy will know they werent witched

[EqsyLootz]

Idk why you keep complaining about a game you don't even play.

Also disguiser is a great role too, I don't have any issues with it as it can be a huge benefit to the mafia.

[dbpeanut]

Idk why you keep complaining about a game you don't even play.

Also disguiser is a great role too, I don't have any issues with it as it can be a huge benefit to the mafia.

I suppose people are complaining because core problems in the game haven't been addressed for years even though they should be relatively simple fixes.
I play this game semi-often, at least 4-5 games per day (not as much as I used to though).
I've played against SilverCruz recently, so they're at least still trying to play the game.
I've never played against you though, even whenever I played 30-40 games a day.
I don't know why you'd keep trying to disregard criticism that's neither directed at you nor impacts you.

[Midio7]

Framer needs to know if/when a target of theirs has been investigated, and probably also be able to choose any investigative result to frame their target as. Aside from the obvious benefits, this would make it easier for the Mafia to use known Jesters (frame them as Bodyguard/Godfather/Arsonist instead of literally not changing their investigation result at all) and, if you let the Framer target Mafia at will (maybe also changing them to Innocent as long as the Reverse Frame persists, though this would make Sheriff even worse when Sheriff really, really doesn't need that, so maybe don't, actually), allow it to enable them to claim outside their bracket without getting caught by Investigator (In Classic, for example, frame the Godfather as something where it can't be instantly pinned down because the Random Town Spy got smacked by the Serial Killer Night 1), though that would infringe on the current Disguiser, I just noticed.
[/quote]

I actually like this idea, Framer being able to change investigative results to which he wants. And maybe give it a limites use on himself or his mafia members? Like 1 or 2?

[SilverCruz]

There are some things in this world I will never understand. How anyone notices anyone else's name is one of them.

[EqsyLootz]

Idk why you keep complaining about a game you don't even play.

Also disguiser is a great role too, I don't have any issues with it as it can be a huge benefit to the mafia.

I suppose people are complaining because core problems in the game haven't been addressed for years even though they should be relatively simple fixes.
I play this game semi-often, at least 4-5 games per day (not as much as I used to though).
I've played against SilverCruz recently, so they're at least still trying to play the game.
I've never played against you though, even whenever I played 30-40 games a day.
I don't know why you'd keep trying to disregard criticism that's neither directed at you nor impacts you.

I mainly play ranked or coven and I'm relatively in the higher rankings which could explain why you don't see me. I wasn't aware they still played the game after all their posts stating they quit and would never play again.

[SilverCruz]

I struggle to pass the time.

And also don't play Ranked because Ranked is stupid.

[EqsyLootz]

I struggle to pass the time.

And also don't play Ranked because Ranked is stupid.

why do I feel like the peanut guy is your alt.