SilverCruz wrote:Part 1 - "Is the mythical "leaver buster" even a good idea?"
My position is that it is not. Here is the evidence.
1 - There is already a system in place to manage this behaviour. There's a healthy amount of volunteers who are willing to look over in-game reports, so there is no need to automate this.
SilverCruz wrote:2 - The atmosphere of the game is already incredibly hostile. You leave a round because you're a Mafia, the rest of the Mafia is dead by Day 3, and the entire town is still alive? Well, you're just the scum of the earth, here's your suspension, it will never roll off so if you don't like it then just stop playing the game. Why should I financially support a game that decided that I was worth punishing for not staying in an incredibly unfair round where I lost half my team through no fault of my own? Speaking of...
SilverCruz wrote:3 - It is evidently distracting from actually improving the game. I mean, correct me if I don't have this right, but this game seems to be a little spartan as far as gameplay updates go. Let's ignore that the Jailor has been incredibly overpowered for years and focus on a few simple questions and answers. Why is it bad for the Medium when town players quit after they die? Because the Medium can't get any information from them. What could be done about this? Implement a Night Ability for the Medium that allows them to get that information even if those players have left the game? Evidently not, let's just work on an overcomplicated, overbearing punishment robot instead! What about live leavers? What should we do about that? Implement Quitbots so that neither faction is instantly and blatantly decapitated if they lose a key member like the Godfather or Jailor? No! Just work on an overcomplicated, overbearing punishment robot instead! Talk about any of this with the players in a direct manner? Nope! Punishment robot! This is the only thing I've actually seen word of being in development since my return (that doesn't include whatever those banners in the announcement forum says because they say nothing), and I don't think that's a very good look. Instead of trying to stop natural player behaviour because they're playing the game quote unquote "wrong", build infrastructure around it so that it's not as damaging. Don't quitbust, quitproof. Also, considering that I only just learned that this game quit the free-to-play model, it turns out that this is even more unexcusable. Again, correct me if I have this wrong, but it seems like your goal is to kick out paying customers who don't do exactly as you say, rather than making the game harder to disrupt. You're trying to get rid of what you see as the weeds but you're going to destroy the entire garden at this rate.
SilverCruz wrote:Moving off slightly, I'm gonna springboard off this and pick out a comment from the pay to play announcement. "Now that we are no longer free to play we will be having a very large focus on cleaning up the community and creating a fun and safe environment for everyone to have quality games." That was two years ago. You've failed! You've still got people spamming racial slurs, being completely and intentionally useless by spamming the chat with irrelevant garbage and getting lynched by the town just to shut them up only for it to turn out, whoops, they were the almighty Jailor, quitting Day 1 for no stated reason, it's been two years and this community is rotten! If I had to take a guess, I'd say it's because you're not setting a good example, here, looping it back to this apparent hyper-focus on punishing people for playing wrong or the aforementioned quitting on Day 1 instead of actually working to minimize the effect of what they're doing. Must I remind you that Team Fortress 2 is also in the middle of a bot crisis and choking out free-to-play accounts has done nothing to solve the problem? The only thing Valve has actually done relating to that is in service of their image by preventing bots from spewing racist rhetoric on their platform, but the bots still show up, they still cheat and ruin Casual mode, and going back to pay-to-play would just result in that game's flow of new players getting dammed. Sound familiar?
SilverCruz wrote: You know why people quit on Day 1? I'm sure some of them do it just ruin the game, but I also bet you others do it because they're not happy with the game. The Mafia sucks to play as because of the Jailor! There's always a Jailor, and nine times out of ten the first thing out of their mouth is "im jailor tplo on me", and you know what you can do about that as the Mafia? Nothing! You can't punish this behaviour because they are guaranteed to either have a Doctor and be unkillable without getting that Doctor first, or a Bodyguard in which case you can't deal with that without losing your Mafioso, at which point you've only made the Jailor even stronger because you can now get completely deadlocked, at which point they can just keep jailing the Godfather without executing until the Town Investigatives fish out the remaining Mafia and Witch, and it's game over. Or, considering there are three Random Towns, they might have one of each, or two Doctors or Bodyguards, so they're even more invincible than usual! Does that sound like a nice time to you? Because it's not! It's miserable, and the point is exacerbated by the Jailor being the only static town role, which gives off the impression that this game is intentionally balanced around the town having one overpowered role that they can always rely on to bail them out of trouble, which also goes the other way and if the Jailor dies or quits during the first night, then the town is going to feel really deflated because they lost the intentionally overpowered role they're supposed to be entitled to! The gameplay has trained the town to get upset if the almighty Jailor stops being there to protect them early in the game, and the Mafia to always expect to lose every round because of the almighty Jailor.
SilverCruz wrote:Number 1, abandon this leaver buster nonsense. Focus on actually improving the game mechanically and making leaving less harmful to the round experience. You can cite this as a place to maybe start with that since I will admit that Quitbots are a tall order (also make Forger and Janitor able to target Mafia at will so they can at least use a quitting Godfather/Mafioso as a stiff to disrupt the Graveyard and obscure the fact that they've already been decapitated). You're already too harsh on leaving games as-is, so getting even harsher will just drive everyone away.
Number 2, go back to free-to-play. If the bots come back, then don't ban them. Instead, silently mark them to only get matched up with other tagged bots so that their handlers don't know that anything is wrong. I can't guarantee that would work, but it'd be worth a try, and if it does fail then well, that's brainstorming time, or time to get some staff devoted to curbing that, but the way you have things now is not really much of an improvement at all.
Number 3, either stop selling the Coven expansion as a separate product and just give it to everyone (with requiring a buy-in these days it's just double-dipping, honestly), or make it purchasable wholesale with Town Points and add a way to receive Town Points in game (wasn't there a system where you could watch some ads for town points before?). Splitting the playerbase like this is a bad move, and it just serves to make people run into the same bad actors more frequently, which serves as a further detriment to their experience and gives them a deeper negative impression of the game.
Number 4, Open the PTR and nerf the Jailor in it. My call is to prevent it from jailing the same person two nights in a row to prevent them from deadlocking, holding a non-Killing role hostage, or keeping a revealed Mayor protected, and to make the Witch force it to execute by making them self-target instead of needing to hit the jailed target to kill this Mayor Game 2.0 meta (note that as a nerf, this is situational to there being a static Witch or Neutral Evil in the Ranked list, and other nerfs, such as making jailed Serial Killers and Werewolves ignore Doctors and Bodyguards when attacking and making the Arsonist douse the Jailor if jailed and not executed could be considered if they aren't enough overall). These should both be incredibly easy adjustments to make, and there's no harm in just launching them on the PTR where they can't harm the main build of the game to see how things turn out. Throwing concepts at the wall haphazardly is better than the nothing that's been going on lately, so give it a try, maybe?
SilverCruz wrote:Okay, here, I really, really want a developer to prove me wrong if I am wrong to be proven, those two changes in particular (no consecutive jailing, Witch self-targeting) I cannot see how they would be even remotely complicated to set up. Like, for example, if you get doused, you are doused, which means you have stopped not being doused. Logically, that means there must be something akin to an "isdoused" player variable that is 0 when not doused and 1 when doused. Therefore, it should not be too hard to add a "wasjailed" player variable that becomes 1 when the player is jailed, stays at 1 the next day, and if wasjailed == 1, then make the button to jail them not appear. Once night comes and they are not jailed, then wasjailed changes back to 0 and they can be jailed again.
Of course, I don't know exactly how this thing is coded and my understanding is scattershot at best, but I'd find it weird if it weren't that simple. Likewise, allowing the Forger and Janitor to target Mafia at will should be pretty easy too.
SilverCruz wrote:I don't follow. What's your defense?
SilverCruz wrote:I didn't ask you.
SilverCruz wrote:Okay, so what proper skill and strategy is involved to escape a deadlock alive when the Mafioso got killed by a Veteran or something?
EqsyLootz wrote:SilverCruz wrote:Okay, so what proper skill and strategy is involved to escape a deadlock alive when the Mafioso got killed by a Veteran or something?
Skill as in Don't attack Veterans.. If not it's always possible to weasle your way out of it using Witch to try to kill jailor, or other methods of killing
SilverCruz wrote:It's a simulation of a realistic game situation.
dolphina wrote:SilverCruz wrote:It's a simulation of a realistic game situation.
Yes, but this only affects a small amount of the playerbase, since from my experience, not a whole lot of people play Ranked consistently. Even with me, I find All Any to be much more fun. Usually the only people who play Ranked are people who own the game and don’t own the Coven Expansion, because, from my experience, once you Coven All Any, you never go back. Besides, why would the devs change a feature just because it’s a problem in just a portion of the already kinda small Ranked community?
SilverCruz wrote:Leaving while alive is not always unforgivable.
kyuss420 wrote:so youre saying jailor should be nerfed because you dont like getting mafia roles, and feel that you should win a match by joining the lobby?
SilverCruz wrote:
That second part is really important too. Does racist spam and bad sportsmanship hurt the game? Sure, ignoring that the game's definition of bad sportsmanship is not the same as mine. But nothing can hurt the game more than developer negligence. I don't have a clue of what's going on behind the scenes besides something that I think will be incredibly harmful to the game (especially if you start punishing dead leaves, that will kill this game very quickly because nobody wants to get killed by the Mafia Night 1 as a Jester then wait around for a match that means nothing to them to end, and if you try to make them do it anyway they're going to look for something else to do that doesn't feel like as much of a waste of time), and I haven't noticed any developers being particularly responsive in the Suggestions, Feedback, or Role Ideas forums, those being the exact spots I would expect at least one of them to be the most active. I admit, I don't know the full extent of the pre-pay-to-play bot crisis because I quit for a long time due to the Jailor frustrating me that much (and upon coming back, literally nothing has changed about the Jailor), but I do not have a good feeling about the place this game is in and where it seems to be going.
EqsyLootz wrote:SilverCruz wrote:
That second part is really important too. Does racist spam and bad sportsmanship hurt the game? Sure, ignoring that the game's definition of bad sportsmanship is not the same as mine. But nothing can hurt the game more than developer negligence. I don't have a clue of what's going on behind the scenes besides something that I think will be incredibly harmful to the game (especially if you start punishing dead leaves, that will kill this game very quickly because nobody wants to get killed by the Mafia Night 1 as a Jester then wait around for a match that means nothing to them to end, and if you try to make them do it anyway they're going to look for something else to do that doesn't feel like as much of a waste of time), and I haven't noticed any developers being particularly responsive in the Suggestions, Feedback, or Role Ideas forums, those being the exact spots I would expect at least one of them to be the most active. I admit, I don't know the full extent of the pre-pay-to-play bot crisis because I quit for a long time due to the Jailor frustrating me that much (and upon coming back, literally nothing has changed about the Jailor), but I do not have a good feeling about the place this game is in and where it seems to be going.[/qupte]
Again, all bad sportsmanship, HS/H and Racism cases are handled immediately to prevent the players from continuing their actions in other games. And No leaving while dead will never become punishable because it already is in some ways. Leaving while dead does not warrent you with any rewards you would obtain while winning such as ELO or MP. Therefore it's used as an encouragement to stay in game.
dbpeanut wrote:EqsyLootz wrote:SilverCruz wrote:
That second part is really important too. Does racist spam and bad sportsmanship hurt the game? Sure, ignoring that the game's definition of bad sportsmanship is not the same as mine. But nothing can hurt the game more than developer negligence. I don't have a clue of what's going on behind the scenes besides something that I think will be incredibly harmful to the game (especially if you start punishing dead leaves, that will kill this game very quickly because nobody wants to get killed by the Mafia Night 1 as a Jester then wait around for a match that means nothing to them to end, and if you try to make them do it anyway they're going to look for something else to do that doesn't feel like as much of a waste of time), and I haven't noticed any developers being particularly responsive in the Suggestions, Feedback, or Role Ideas forums, those being the exact spots I would expect at least one of them to be the most active. I admit, I don't know the full extent of the pre-pay-to-play bot crisis because I quit for a long time due to the Jailor frustrating me that much (and upon coming back, literally nothing has changed about the Jailor), but I do not have a good feeling about the place this game is in and where it seems to be going.[/qupte]
Again, all bad sportsmanship, HS/H and Racism cases are handled immediately to prevent the players from continuing their actions in other games. And No leaving while dead will never become punishable because it already is in some ways. Leaving while dead does not warrent you with any rewards you would obtain while winning such as ELO or MP. Therefore it's used as an encouragement to stay in game.
Alright telling you now, racism and harassment cases aren't handled immediately. At best, they're handled ASAP, but I had a guy who consistently typed "Lynch the bl*cks" for 4-5 games in a row with the name "N*gro". And I'm talking at least 20m long games.
The only cases they seem to handle quickly are reports of faking BMG employees. Granted, it's also super rare to see anybody try that, but the few times I have, they were banned before the game was even over.
There's a reason I made a post about updating the banned words you know, since racism can run wild for hours due to either nobody being on or them being swamped with reports.
That being said I have nothing else relevant to add to your comment.
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