I think Forger and Disguiser shouldn't be changed

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I think Forger and Disguiser shouldn't be changed

Postby Midio7 » Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:32 am

I gotta say, Forger and Disguiser are the most fun roles to play as Mafia. It's so sad BMG wants to rework them. It's so satisfying to confirm you and your Mafia mates by forging TI will with a good one.
,,Disguiser needs to die to help their team" pfff this isn't the main goal. You always gotta try when you're alive and the disguise is just a backup.
These roles shouldn't be changed because people doesn't know how to play them. Who else thinks this way?
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Re: I think Forger and Disguiser shouldn't be changed

Postby TheUltimateCake » Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:40 am

The reason that Forger and Disguiser are being reworked is because they're way too underpowered compared to Mafia Support roles and Janitor. Consort can RB key members of the Town, Consig/BMer can both get info, and BMer can make someone shut up for a night. Also, Janitor can get claim space for Mafia, as well as still knowing their original role. Now let's see what Forger and Disguiser do.

Forger's ability is very situational. You need to know their role, and also make up a convincing will in 30 seconds or less. This will be even harder if they've already posted their will in chat, as you'll have to copy it exactly or it'll be pretty obvious it's forged.


Disguiser is also very situational. Sure it is easy to claim TP with it, that's only because it's ability isn't that good. Every Mafia role should try when alive, but Disguiser's ability only gets real value when they die. Disguiser literally has to die, in order to use it's ability.
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Re: I think Forger and Disguiser shouldn't be changed

Postby Midio7 » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:35 am

TheUltimateCake wrote:The reason that Forger and Disguiser are being reworked is because they're way too underpowered compared to Mafia Support roles and Janitor. Consort can RB key members of the Town, Consig/BMer can both get info, and BMer can make someone shut up for a night. Also, Janitor can get claim space for Mafia, as well as still knowing their original role. Now let's see what Forger and Disguiser do.

Forger's ability is very situational. You need to know their role, and also make up a convincing will in 30 seconds or less. This will be even harder if they've already posted their will in chat, as you'll have to copy it exactly or it'll be pretty obvious it's forged.


Disguiser is also very situational. Sure it is easy to claim TP with it, that's only because it's ability isn't that good. Every Mafia role should try when alive, but Disguiser's ability only gets real value when they die. Disguiser literally has to die, in order to use it's ability.


So, what you're saying is, Mafia Deception is an underpowered class in comparison with the other ones?
The thing about copying exact is, I don't think someone really pays that much attention. Usually, when I play with Forger, I make a will something like this:

[Name]-[Role] (I usually forger TI because other roles aren't worth forged, but might be situational)

N1 Mafia Teammate 1 (inno/invest results they claim/he visited Jailor)
N2 Mafia Teammate 2 (inno/invest results they claim/he visited Jailor)
N3 Mafia Teammate 3 (inno/invest results they claim/he visited Jailor)
N4 Me (inno/invest results they claim/he visited Jailor)

Though, He might die until then and too many changes MIGHT be observed so I try to Forge a will as fast as I can. I also prepare a will DAYS before forging.
Disguiser? I just Disguise as someone and make my own will.

It might be based on opinions though, I see not many people like these 2 roles.
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Re: I think Forger and Disguiser shouldn't be changed

Postby Brilliand » Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:44 am

Midio7 wrote:So, what you're saying is, Mafia Deception is an underpowered class in comparison with the other ones?


Except for Janitor, which is the single most powerful Mafia role (excluding the one that performs the kill of course).
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Re: I think Forger and Disguiser shouldn't be changed

Postby Harryyoshi » Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:59 am

Midio7 wrote:[Name]-[Role] (I usually forger TI because other roles aren't worth forged, but might be situational)

N1 Mafia Teammate 1 (inno/invest results they claim/he visited Jailor)
N2 Mafia Teammate 2 (inno/invest results they claim/he visited Jailor)
N3 Mafia Teammate 3 (inno/invest results they claim/he visited Jailor)
N4 Me (inno/invest results they claim/he visited Jailor)

Though, He might die until then and too many changes MIGHT be observed so I try to Forge a will as fast as I can. I also prepare a will DAYS before forging.
Disguiser? I just Disguise as someone and make my own will.

It might be based on opinions though, I see not many people like these 2 roles.

This is unreal. There is a reason why TI post daily, and this is one of the reasons. People don't look at wills to see past results, they look at the chat.
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Re: I think Forger and Disguiser shouldn't be changed

Postby kyuss420 » Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:13 am

Harryyoshi wrote:
Midio7 wrote:[Name]-[Role] (I usually forger TI because other roles aren't worth forged, but might be situational)

N1 Mafia Teammate 1 (inno/invest results they claim/he visited Jailor)
N2 Mafia Teammate 2 (inno/invest results they claim/he visited Jailor)
N3 Mafia Teammate 3 (inno/invest results they claim/he visited Jailor)
N4 Me (inno/invest results they claim/he visited Jailor)

Though, He might die until then and too many changes MIGHT be observed so I try to Forge a will as fast as I can. I also prepare a will DAYS before forging.
Disguiser? I just Disguise as someone and make my own will.

It might be based on opinions though, I see not many people like these 2 roles.

This is unreal. There is a reason why TI post daily, and this is one of the reasons. People don't look at wills to see past results, they look at the chat.


Yea ive never seen forger fool anyone.. you need to know the guys role (requires a consig) because you can only forge quiet TIs, and then hope theres no medium in game. A forged will like yours puts suspicion on the mafia team mate in the will, if town catch you out (to an experienced scum reader who knows your tricks anyway...). Also maf have to ''waste'' a night targeting the quiet TI, instead of a more important role, like a TP or LO, so to pull off the deception, you need a team effort and a comittment to a strat that could easily backfire and out one of you, while falling behind a night in your optimal priority targeting order.

Disguiser, much the same. Ive seen it work once, by disguising as a sheriff and having the mafioso as inno n2 in his will. That held up for 2 days, then mafioso got lynched for being possible GF. So basically lost 1 member to keep mafioso alive for 2 days...

So while the roles work well against passive towns, that want to wait for ''more proof'' every time a TI finds an evil, the roles are quite weak against lynch happy towns who claim and post results starting day 2.
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Re: I think Forger and Disguiser shouldn't be changed

Postby DragonClaw66 » Fri Oct 09, 2020 6:22 pm

Spoiler:
kyuss420 wrote:
Harryyoshi wrote:
Midio7 wrote:[Name]-[Role] (I usually forger TI because other roles aren't worth forged, but might be situational)

N1 Mafia Teammate 1 (inno/invest results they claim/he visited Jailor)
N2 Mafia Teammate 2 (inno/invest results they claim/he visited Jailor)
N3 Mafia Teammate 3 (inno/invest results they claim/he visited Jailor)
N4 Me (inno/invest results they claim/he visited Jailor)

Though, He might die until then and too many changes MIGHT be observed so I try to Forge a will as fast as I can. I also prepare a will DAYS before forging.
Disguiser? I just Disguise as someone and make my own will.

It might be based on opinions though, I see not many people like these 2 roles.

This is unreal. There is a reason why TI post daily, and this is one of the reasons. People don't look at wills to see past results, they look at the chat.


Yea ive never seen forger fool anyone.. you need to know the guys role (requires a consig) because you can only forge quiet TIs, and then hope theres no medium in game. A forged will like yours puts suspicion on the mafia team mate in the will, if town catch you out (to an experienced scum reader who knows your tricks anyway...). Also maf have to ''waste'' a night targeting the quiet TI, instead of a more important role, like a TP or LO, so to pull off the deception, you need a team effort and a comittment to a strat that could easily backfire and out one of you, while falling behind a night in your optimal priority targeting order.

Disguiser, much the same. Ive seen it work once, by disguising as a sheriff and having the mafioso as inno n2 in his will. That held up for 2 days, then mafioso got lynched for being possible GF. So basically lost 1 member to keep mafioso alive for 2 days...

So while the roles work well against passive towns, that want to wait for ''more proof'' every time a TI finds an evil, the roles are quite weak against lynch happy towns who claim and post results starting day 2.
It's very easy to determine what players are Town Investigatives in this meta, the problem is that they post their information daily, which makes it impossible to change the contents of a will if the Town is attentive.
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Re: I think Forger and Disguiser shouldn't be changed

Postby OreCreeper » Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:43 pm

DragonClaw66 wrote:
kyuss420 wrote:
Harryyoshi wrote:
Midio7 wrote:[Name]-[Role] (I usually forger TI because other roles aren't worth forged, but might be situational)

N1 Mafia Teammate 1 (inno/invest results they claim/he visited Jailor)
N2 Mafia Teammate 2 (inno/invest results they claim/he visited Jailor)
N3 Mafia Teammate 3 (inno/invest results they claim/he visited Jailor)
N4 Me (inno/invest results they claim/he visited Jailor)

Though, He might die until then and too many changes MIGHT be observed so I try to Forge a will as fast as I can. I also prepare a will DAYS before forging.
Disguiser? I just Disguise as someone and make my own will.

It might be based on opinions though, I see not many people like these 2 roles.

This is unreal. There is a reason why TI post daily, and this is one of the reasons. People don't look at wills to see past results, they look at the chat.


Yea ive never seen forger fool anyone.. you need to know the guys role (requires a consig) because you can only forge quiet TIs, and then hope theres no medium in game. A forged will like yours puts suspicion on the mafia team mate in the will, if town catch you out (to an experienced scum reader who knows your tricks anyway...). Also maf have to ''waste'' a night targeting the quiet TI, instead of a more important role, like a TP or LO, so to pull off the deception, you need a team effort and a comittment to a strat that could easily backfire and out one of you, while falling behind a night in your optimal priority targeting order.

Disguiser, much the same. Ive seen it work once, by disguising as a sheriff and having the mafioso as inno n2 in his will. That held up for 2 days, then mafioso got lynched for being possible GF. So basically lost 1 member to keep mafioso alive for 2 days...

So while the roles work well against passive towns, that want to wait for ''more proof'' every time a TI finds an evil, the roles are quite weak against lynch happy towns who claim and post results starting day 2.
It's very easy to determine what players are Town Investigatives in this meta, the problem is that they post their information daily, which makes it impossible to change the contents of a will if the Town is attentive.

The stuff forger is good for is forging roles like vigilante, medium, or jailor, and really shouldn't be used for TI unless the TI in question forgets to post their findings one day. It's also useful for putting stuff like fake transports and sometimes you can get away with fake rbs (although town might be more suspicious of roleblocks since those are usually announced more often than transports). Fake transports as forger is surprisingly good because no one ever expects it. Probably, one of the main reasons why forger is, for me, quite a powerful role is because no one really expects forgers to actually bother to make a convincing forged will and most of the time forgers just clear wills. So when you actually try to do something with your ability, it catches town completely off guard.
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Re: I think Forger and Disguiser shouldn't be changed

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:47 pm

I also like those roles, the problem is that you must make a good big brain play or you are easily caught in act, however that big brain play can lead mafia to win, as forger instead of unframing my teammates, I frame vigi, spy and invest claims,

As fprger you must copy your target's will so the changes are less likely to be noticed, forge a spy and change ONE mafia visit to your teamate, forge a sheriff and say someone susp instead of saying your team inno, forge an invest and say that someone is vigi vet mafia, forge an LO (if you find them) and say that GF visited jailor or that the vigi claim visited the dead guy
Forge a vigi and say someone got defense, forge a med and say that the deads thinks it is someone, forge a retri if TI are dead

You can do many good plays with forger, the problem is that it is VERY hard to do it without getting caugh

Disg is easier than forger but still being hard, disguise as sheriff or invest and frame someone, disguise as spy and act normally, disguise as TK and get yourself hung so jailor executes your cc, those are the best options and a good play can cause chaos in town (once I got a spy hanged and a sheriff executed after disguising as spy without getting caugh)

But as I said, those plays are very hard to do without being caugh
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Re: I think Forger and Disguiser shouldn't be changed

Postby Joacgroso » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:18 pm

Not like it matters, since those roles were changed anyway, but you can't just copy someone's will. For some reason the game doesn't allow you to paste into forgeries, so you have to type the will in 37 seconds. And no matter how good you are, if there is a spy or a medium or a dead medium you aren't getting away with it.
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