The Power of the Executioner End-Game Vote

[Yemac]

I would love for exe to lose their defence. Exe right now is too powerful. And yes, it is fun to sow chaos after you've won, but to that I say, change your strategy. If you are saying your target is sus n1, and then get mad at the fact that you get show by vig because you lost your defence after your target got hung, maybe don't do that strat? Get your target hung naturally or by softpushing them to sow chaos. Usually a smart jailor will execute you anyway regardless of defence.

In Ranked exe has a lot of power late-game. If it gets to a 1v1v1 with SK, GF or Exe, SK can't do anything to ensure their win except have exe vote the GF. They can even force an exe-only win when that happens (unless mafia/sk vote the exe up).

Or, the most broken aspect of exe, an exe that works with town after they won. This usually doesn't happen in my ranked games, but I see it often in ranked practice. And yes, evils can claim exe too, but evils can't kill the exe working with town. I once worked with town as exe and was hit thrice by mafia. Looking back on it I saw how broken that actually was. Trans just kept using me as a meatshield for town and I agreed to it. I think if mafia/sk/other evils can kill exe after they've won, it balances out a lot.

I also disagree with saying it "nerfes" exe. Exe already won. You don't "nerf" their win-condition. You may buff town with it, but you'll also buff evils. I think with the forger/disguiser changes that are going to happen, exe losing their defence really gives it more strategy and removes kingmaker situations. If you disguise as an exe and get killed by vig, well... you can just say "I already won!".

[Joacgroso]

I would love for exe to lose their defence. Exe right now is too powerful. And yes, it is fun to sow chaos after you've won, but to that I say, change your strategy. If you are saying your target is sus n1, and then get mad at the fact that you get show by vig because you lost your defence after your target got hung, maybe don't do that strat? Get your target hung naturally or by softpushing them to sow chaos. Usually a smart jailor will execute you anyway regardless of defence.

There's no reason to change your strategy if it helps you win. The problem with this change is that it would make playing to win less fun, without making any strategy actually less effective.

In Ranked exe has a lot of power late-game. If it gets to a 1v1v1 with SK, GF or Exe, SK can't do anything to ensure their win except have exe vote the GF. They can even force an exe-only win when that happens (unless mafia/sk vote the exe up).

Or, the most broken aspect of exe, an exe that works with town after they won. This usually doesn't happen in my ranked games, but I see it often in ranked practice. And yes, evils can claim exe too, but evils can't kill the exe working with town. I once worked with town as exe and was hit thrice by mafia. Looking back on it I saw how broken that actually was. Trans just kept using me as a meatshield for town and I agreed to it. I think if mafia/sk/other evils can kill exe after they've won, it balances out a lot.

I also disagree with saying it "nerfes" exe. Exe already won. You don't "nerf" their win-condition. You may buff town with it, but you'll also buff evils. I think with the forger/disguiser changes that are going to happen, exe losing their defence really gives it more strategy and removes kingmaker situations. If you disguise as an exe and get killed by vig, well... you can just say "I already won!".

If balance is a problem, you can replace the NE slot in ranked with a witch slot, which would also reduce the swing. But I don't want executioners to become more boring.
This change wouldn't be a nerf. It would be more like a buff to town, as you said.

[ThePublicDomain]

but in ranked this is usually solved by jailor executing the executioner after he wins.

Is it really good strategy to waste a kill on exe?

[Joacgroso]

It's not a waste in my opinion. Besides, you can't know for sure they are actually exe and not something more dangerous.

[wozearly]

It's not a waste in my opinion. Besides, you can't know for sure they are actually exe and not something more dangerous.

That remains true in All Any, and used to be a lot more true in Ranked with the Any slot.

But now that there's guaranteed to be exactly one NE in Ranked (and you generally know pretty swiftly if it's Witch or not), openly claiming Exe, or appearing to claim Exe, is more of a desperate last resort to explain your immunity to another non-Town faction that would otherwise reveal you that day.

Granted, I did once see an awesome play by the Mafia with a Godfather unexpectedly shot by Vigi claiming Exe and fitting up the Jester as GF during lynch or lose, with the other Mafia deliberately not voting them up...it was a perfect shaft to the Town, but one of those rare moments where all the stars aligned, including the other Maf players being smart enough to work out the game plan with no notice.

Generally in Ranked, if someone is confirmed as Exe or strongly suspected of being Exe, Town are better off leaving them alone and focusing on other more important targets. There aren't going to be many situations where it would be worthwhile for the Jailor to spend a night executing them.

[Brilliand]

Is it really good strategy to waste a kill on exe?

Individual Jailor executes aren't really valuable, considering the Jailor is far more likely to lose them executing a townie than by killing 3 nontown and still not having won.

If you realize that you've already jailed the Executioner, you should definitely execute him. If you're in the day phase and deciding whether to jail the Executioner, it really depends on whether you have a scumread on anyone else. Executioner is the lowest-priority kill, but it's still better than not killing that night.

[Joacgroso]

That remains true in All Any, and used to be a lot more true in Ranked with the Any slot.

But now that there's guaranteed to be exactly one NE in Ranked (and you generally know pretty swiftly if it's Witch or not), openly claiming Exe, or appearing to claim Exe, is more of a desperate last resort to explain your immunity to another non-Town faction that would otherwise reveal you that day.

Granted, I did once see an awesome play by the Mafia with a Godfather unexpectedly shot by Vigi claiming Exe and fitting up the Jester as GF during lynch or lose, with the other Mafia deliberately not voting them up...it was a perfect shaft to the Town, but one of those rare moments where all the stars aligned, including the other Maf players being smart enough to work out the game plan with no notice.

Generally in Ranked, if someone is confirmed as Exe or strongly suspected of being Exe, Town are better off leaving them alone and focusing on other more important targets. There aren't going to be many situations where it would be worthwhile for the Jailor to spend a night executing them.

Doesn't that mean that claiming exe as evil is actually a good strat since a good town would leave you alone?

[ThePublicDomain]

Executioner is the lowest-priority kill, but it's still better than not killing that night.

It's really not at all. If Executioner is the difference between maf gaining majority, then sure, but killing Exe for no reason other than them not being town right away is poor. You only get 3 kills as Jailor, if you have more than 3 enemies wasting any of those kills is a mistake, especially if your team is going down in flames.

[Joacgroso]

You can't even guarantee they are actually exe. You don't know when you are going to die. And most jailors don't use all their executions anyway.

[wozearly]

Doesn't that mean that claiming exe as evil is actually a good strat since a good town would leave you alone?

To an extent, but not in Ranked. The main reason there is that it's a temporary and volatile strategy. As soon as the actual NE is revealed, you're priority #1 for removal and the only viable excuse (dead NE must have been Disguiser) is pathetically awful, as the Disguiser has no reason to disguise themselves as an open NE claim. Since you can't easily control when the NE will be revealed as either NK or Mafia, it becomes this kinda Sword of Damocles hanging over your head. That's not the end of the world if you're the GF as you're somewhat expendable, but as NK you really don't want that coming crashing down around your ears until the moment is right - and you can't afford to die early.

It's also not a great claim for roles without night immunity, because there's a reasonable chance that a Vigi will take a shot at you just in case you're lying as no sane Town member is going to claim Exe and, frankly, how often do Vigis use all three bullets?

The only time I'd even vaguely recommend it in Ranked is if you're NK and Mafia have discovered you have defence, but the Town haven't and NE is unknown. Maf know it's 50/50 that you're NE or NK, so making a concerted effort the next day to appear Exe-like is a way to explain your immunity to them and discourage them from outing you. It works in that situation because when it falls apart the Mafia still have to credibly explain how they know you're the NK without revealing themselves, giving you the chance to take out the TI claims in the interim to ensure there are no Maf TI claims able to do that.

It's not a great position to be in, but it's better than waiting for the Mafia to out you at their own convenience, and as NK buying yourself another day is always worthwhile.


Where it is more effective is in All Any, where the presence of an Exe can't be disproved by the presence of any other roles - although there it's more about encouraging the killers not to visit you rather than the Town to leave you alone. The problem is that it's only marginally more trustworthy than a Survivor claim to other killers unless you've performed an early mislynch on Town; particularly difficult to rely on in All Any, but if you pull it off makes an Exe claim a very viable way to hide out as a role like Arsonist or WW and try to steal the game at the last minute.

[wozearly]

Is it really good strategy to waste a kill on exe?

Individual Jailor executes aren't really valuable, considering the Jailor is far more likely to lose them executing a townie than by killing 3 nontown and still not having won.

If you realize that you've already jailed the Executioner, you should definitely execute him. If you're in the day phase and deciding whether to jail the Executioner, it really depends on whether you have a scumread on anyone else. Executioner is the lowest-priority kill, but it's still better than not killing that night.

In Ranked, I'd argue it's generally worse to deliberately jail and kill the Exe than to jail a random non-confirmed person.

The reason for that being the Jailor's roleblock and ability to neutralise NKs by execution. If the NK is still active, the Jailor is better off hunting them than wasting time on the Exe. If the Mafia have only one killing role, the potential opportunity to lock them down is too valuable to pass up. Even if the Mafia have two killing roles, the potential to reveal that the GF did the kill rather than the Mafioso is also helpful.

The only times I can think of where you might want to deliberately remove the Exe as Jailor would be right at the endgame to give other roles the space to prove themselves or confirm the final Mafia role(s) - for example, two competing Vigi claims shooting each other, or having a guarded Sheriff/Invest who can confirm who the final Mafia members are, where sustaining your majority for one more day will ensure a Town win whereas jailing/executing the wrong person has a 50/50 chance of you getting it wrong.