Both of these suggestions lead directly to my Point B in my first post about this issue, so I'm going to just repost it here because I'm a lazy fuckJakeTheSnake5963 wrote:If neo-retri were to be non-unique, I think that multiple retris should interfere with one another instead of just being able to use the same body on the same night. I have two suggestions for how this could work:
1) Trying to use the same body between multiple retris would result in nothing happening at all. This would solve the issue of the multiplication of useful roles in the graveyard, and would make it so all of them would need to coordinate with each other regarding who and when to use each corpse. I think the trade off to this interference is that every retri would be able to be confirmable with each other (this may cause cramped claim space issues for evils however).
2) Each of the retris will randomly be given a level of priority over the others each night (different every night) and if multiple retris target the same corpse, the one with the highest priority will dictate what happens to it. The retri(s) with lower priority will be given no message for the night (instead of recieving TI results for example). I think that this would allow evils to be able to claim retri even if a retri is already in the game on the basis that they were unable to use the corpse because they rolled a lower priority than the real one. I like this suggestion better than the first because it makes other retris less confirmable. One retri will know of another based on the fact that nothing will happen when they try to reanimate a corpse, but the one who has priority will have no clue if the other even exists until later in the game.
I know both of these suggestions have many holes in them, but a neo-retri without TK power would be a bit of a bummer. Of course this debate could just end if neo-retri is a unique role, but I would personally rather it not be unique.
MysticMismagius wrote:B) [Non-unique neo-Ret that can't use the same corpses as each other would be] a Werewolf type of deal where having more than one of them would just end up shooting themselves in the foot
If they can't use the same bodies, more neo-Rets means running out of corpses much faster
Making them a lot less useful than if there was only one of them
ak521 wrote:So you're expecting medium to also get reworked/overhauled/removed?
MysticMismagius wrote:Fair, stuff neo-Ret with as many abilities from non-visiting roles as you want, but only if Necromancer is granted those abilities as well. As things stand it seems like it'd be pretty easy for Necromancer to fake-claim neo-Ret, solving the role's easy confirmability in Coven. Allowing neo-Ret to do things that Necromancer can't gives Town an out, allowing them to test a Ret claim by having them do one of those things. And I really, really want to avoid that.
MysticMismagius wrote:But Ret is OP even by TL standards
MysticMismagius wrote:A) a Veteran type of deal where, while one neo-Ret probably won't be too powerful, it gets much more powerful if you add more of them
Imagine turning one Doctor into four with four Rets all using the one corpse
Or turning one Vigilante into three, killing the entire non-immune Mafia all at once
orangeandblack5 wrote:Universal backup is better and less confirmable, can we please just do that and have Retri be a non-unique Town role that can become any non-Unique Town role in the graveyard
orangeandblack5 wrote:It was my understanding that corpses would be reusable, just not on the same night - otherwise I agree
Unless you mean that multiple Neo-Rets have different pools and would only interfere with one another on the same night, but that doesn't register with what you saidAchilles wrote:Abilities:
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You may only reanimate a Town player once before their corpse rots
...
Similar outcome: sureorangeandblack5 wrote:I still say that just "become the role of a non-unique dead townie" is a way simpler way to get a better outcome with less dev time
Ah, yes, because Jailor can instantly confirm at least 2 townies on the spot, confirm/deny the existence of any Mediums, and force scum to survive an extra day before having majority all in one day, as well as take away the spoils scum would normally gain from successfully killing another powerful roleBrilliand wrote:Well no, current Ret is weaker than Jailor.MysticMismagius wrote:But Ret is OP even by TL standards
If you actually read the entire post instead of cutting out one section to quote, I was not asking people to choose which one of these two paths was better, but arguing that both paths are bad and thus, no matter how you rearrange it, neo-Ret is better unique than not.MysticMismagius wrote:I'm in favor of this version. Doctor and Vigilante aren't unique, so winding up with many of them somehow isn't a problem even if the way you wound up with many wasn't by them being rolled organically.Brilliand wrote:A) a Veteran type of deal where, while one neo-Ret probably won't be too powerful, it gets much more powerful if you add more of them
Imagine turning one Doctor into four with four Rets all using the one corpse
Or turning one Vigilante into three, killing the entire non-immune Mafia all at once
MysticMismagius wrote:additional suggestion: It'd be cool if, when either neo-Ret or Necromancer died, the other would be able to use their corpse to reuse a dead role they've already used.
I mean Achilles is right here, we could always ask if there's a feasible way to do itBrilliand wrote:I like this idea, but I don't think the interface for it is possible. The Ret already needs two buttons: one for who to use, and one for where to send them. If using a Transporter, he needs three buttons: one to pick the Transporter, and two to direct the transport. If using another Ret, he needs one button + all the buttons that Ret has. 1+x=x won't work no matter what x is.MysticMismagius wrote:additional suggestion: It'd be cool if, when either neo-Ret or Necromancer died, the other would be able to use their corpse to reuse a dead role they've already used.
The only way this could work is if picking a target popped up a menu that could itself contain more menus, and that's not how the ToS interface is designed.
MysticMismagius wrote:If you actually read the entire post instead of cutting out one section to quote, I was not asking people to choose which one of these two paths was better, but arguing that both paths are bad and thus, no matter how you rearrange it, neo-Ret is better unique than not.
MysticMismagius wrote:And like I said in my following post, many neo-Rets in this path is not the same as many Docs or many Vigilantes, it's many every usable role in the graveyard all at once
You literally say right after this that neo-Ret is "a weaker version of every role", do you really want there to be two or three of those running around?
MysticMismagius wrote:Similar outcome: sureorangeandblack5 wrote:I still say that just "become the role of a non-unique dead townie" is a way simpler way to get a better outcome with less dev time
Better outcome: questionable
And both are copy/pastes of an existing role with some tweaks, so I fail to see how it's less effort to copy/paste one role over another
It's really a matter of personal preference, and I personally prefer this version of neo-Ret: it's more interesting to play and doesn't have the aggravating features of Amnesiac
MysticMismagius wrote:orangeandblack5 wrote:It was my understanding that corpses would be reusable, just not on the same night - otherwise I agreeUnless you mean that multiple Neo-Rets have different pools and would only interfere with one another on the same night, but that doesn't register with what you saidAchilles wrote:Abilities:
...
You may only reanimate a Town player once before their corpse rots
...
SpiritWolfLord wrote:Imagine four investigators checking 4 different people in one night. The next night, they all turn into sheriffs. And the next, they all turn into tp, and then they turn to vig. Granted, it wouldn't work out that well in a majority of the games, but it could be insanely powerful if they had proper coordination. We should at least see how the community does with the changes before deciding if it should lose it's unique.
SpiritWolfLord wrote:For cleaned roles, ret shouldn't be able to do anything with them. They shouldn't be selectable. As for disguiser, if the disguiser has successfully disguised as a townie, maybe ret can use their ability without knowing. For example, if the dis is a doc, the ret puts doc on jailor. The lo sees the dead disguiser visit, like with necromancer (if I remember it correctly). Sheriff sees the ret as SUS for a single night (maybe), and the invest sees them as spy/bmer/jailor. This would not only give disguiser a more viable claim, but would give more utility to their ability after they die. (It would also open up the door for trolls, but I digress).
SpiritWolfLord wrote:Imagine four investigators checking 4 different people in one night. The next night, they all turn into sheriffs. And the next, they all turn into tp, and then they turn to vig. Granted, it wouldn't work out that well in a majority of the games, but it could be insanely powerful if they had proper coordination. We should at least see how the community does with the changes before deciding if it should lose it's unique.
MysticMismagius wrote:I mean Achilles is right here, we could always ask if there's a feasible way to do itBrilliand wrote:I like this idea, but I don't think the interface for it is possible. The Ret already needs two buttons: one for who to use, and one for where to send them. If using a Transporter, he needs three buttons: one to pick the Transporter, and two to direct the transport. If using another Ret, he needs one button + all the buttons that Ret has. 1+x=x won't work no matter what x is.MysticMismagius wrote:additional suggestion: It'd be cool if, when either neo-Ret or Necromancer died, the other would be able to use their corpse to reuse a dead role they've already used.
The only way this could work is if picking a target popped up a menu that could itself contain more menus, and that's not how the ToS interface is designed.
@Achilles would this suggestion be possible to implement?
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