Let's Talk About Retributionist

[JakeTheSnake5963]

If neo-retri were to be non-unique, I think that multiple retris should interfere with one another instead of just being able to use the same body on the same night. I have two suggestions for how this could work:

1) Trying to use the same body between multiple retris would result in nothing happening at all. This would solve the issue of the multiplication of useful roles in the graveyard, and would make it so all of them would need to coordinate with each other regarding who and when to use each corpse. I think the trade off to this interference is that every retri would be able to be confirmable with each other (this may cause cramped claim space issues for evils however).

2) Each of the retris will randomly be given a level of priority over the others each night (different every night) and if multiple retris target the same corpse, the one with the highest priority will dictate what happens to it. The retri(s) with lower priority will be given no message for the night (instead of recieving TI results for example). I think that this would allow evils to be able to claim retri even if a retri is already in the game on the basis that they were unable to use the corpse because they rolled a lower priority than the real one. I like this suggestion better than the first because it makes other retris less confirmable. One retri will know of another based on the fact that nothing will happen when they try to reanimate a corpse, but the one who has priority will have no clue if the other even exists until later in the game.

I know both of these suggestions have many holes in them, but a neo-retri without TK power would be a bit of a bummer. Of course this debate could just end if neo-retri is a unique role, but I would personally rather it not be unique.

Edit: I am now leaning on the side of retri remaining unique based on the posts below (this is not my preference, but it would make the role much simpler to implement)

[orangeandblack5]

1 over 2 imo

rng bad

I get how this can lead to confirmability issues but still

Plus it's arguably just as confirmable with 2

In summary

Universal backup is better and less confirmable, can we please just do that and have Retri be a non-unique Town role that can become any non-Unique Town role in the graveyard

[MysticMismagius]

If neo-retri were to be non-unique, I think that multiple retris should interfere with one another instead of just being able to use the same body on the same night. I have two suggestions for how this could work:

1) Trying to use the same body between multiple retris would result in nothing happening at all. This would solve the issue of the multiplication of useful roles in the graveyard, and would make it so all of them would need to coordinate with each other regarding who and when to use each corpse. I think the trade off to this interference is that every retri would be able to be confirmable with each other (this may cause cramped claim space issues for evils however).

2) Each of the retris will randomly be given a level of priority over the others each night (different every night) and if multiple retris target the same corpse, the one with the highest priority will dictate what happens to it. The retri(s) with lower priority will be given no message for the night (instead of recieving TI results for example). I think that this would allow evils to be able to claim retri even if a retri is already in the game on the basis that they were unable to use the corpse because they rolled a lower priority than the real one. I like this suggestion better than the first because it makes other retris less confirmable. One retri will know of another based on the fact that nothing will happen when they try to reanimate a corpse, but the one who has priority will have no clue if the other even exists until later in the game.
I know both of these suggestions have many holes in them, but a neo-retri without TK power would be a bit of a bummer. Of course this debate could just end if neo-retri is a unique role, but I would personally rather it not be unique.

Both of these suggestions lead directly to my Point B in my first post about this issue, so I'm going to just repost it here because I'm a lazy fuck

B) [Non-unique neo-Ret that can't use the same corpses as each other would be] a Werewolf type of deal where having more than one of them would just end up shooting themselves in the foot
If they can't use the same bodies, more neo-Rets means running out of corpses much faster
Making them a lot less useful than if there was only one of them

[orangeandblack5]

It was my understanding that corpses would be reusable, just not on the same night - otherwise I agree

I still say that just "become the role of a non-unique dead townie" is a way simpler way to get a better outcome with less dev time

[Brilliand]

So you're expecting medium to also get reworked/overhauled/removed?

Yes. It needs it, and the devs have indicated that they know it needs it.

Fair, stuff neo-Ret with as many abilities from non-visiting roles as you want, but only if Necromancer is granted those abilities as well. As things stand it seems like it'd be pretty easy for Necromancer to fake-claim neo-Ret, solving the role's easy confirmability in Coven. Allowing neo-Ret to do things that Necromancer can't gives Town an out, allowing them to test a Ret claim by having them do one of those things. And I really, really want to avoid that.

Agreed. Necromancer should get everything the neo-Ret gets.

But Ret is OP even by TL standards

Well no, current Ret is weaker than Jailor.

A) a Veteran type of deal where, while one neo-Ret probably won't be too powerful, it gets much more powerful if you add more of them
Imagine turning one Doctor into four with four Rets all using the one corpse
Or turning one Vigilante into three, killing the entire non-immune Mafia all at once

I'm in favor of this version. Doctor and Vigilante aren't unique, so winding up with many of them somehow isn't a problem even if the way you wound up with many wasn't by them being rolled organically.

And, if there's many neo-Rets in a game, that means there are fewer usable roles available to potentially die.

Universal backup is better and less confirmable, can we please just do that and have Retri be a non-unique Town role that can become any non-Unique Town role in the graveyard

Universal backup is weaker than just rolling that role from the start, though. A Retributionist that can pick a different job each night actually has some advantage over the role he's copying, in that he can be a weaker version of every role instead of a weaker version of just one role.

[MysticMismagius]

It was my understanding that corpses would be reusable, just not on the same night - otherwise I agree

Abilities:
...
You may only reanimate a Town player once before their corpse rots
...

Unless you mean that multiple Neo-Rets have different pools and would only interfere with one another on the same night, but that doesn't register with what you said

I still say that just "become the role of a non-unique dead townie" is a way simpler way to get a better outcome with less dev time

Similar outcome: sure
Better outcome: questionable
And both are copy/pastes of an existing role with some tweaks, so I fail to see how it's less effort to copy/paste one role over another
It's really a matter of personal preference, and I personally prefer this version of neo-Ret: it's more interesting to play and doesn't have the aggravating features of Amnesiac

EDIT: got ninja'd by Brilliand

But Ret is OP even by TL standards

Well no, current Ret is weaker than Jailor.

Ah, yes, because Jailor can instantly confirm at least 2 townies on the spot, confirm/deny the existence of any Mediums, and force scum to survive an extra day before having majority all in one day, as well as take away the spoils scum would normally gain from successfully killing another powerful role

A) a Veteran type of deal where, while one neo-Ret probably won't be too powerful, it gets much more powerful if you add more of them
Imagine turning one Doctor into four with four Rets all using the one corpse
Or turning one Vigilante into three, killing the entire non-immune Mafia all at once

I'm in favor of this version. Doctor and Vigilante aren't unique, so winding up with many of them somehow isn't a problem even if the way you wound up with many wasn't by them being rolled organically.

If you actually read the entire post instead of cutting out one section to quote, I was not asking people to choose which one of these two paths was better, but arguing that both paths are bad and thus, no matter how you rearrange it, neo-Ret is better unique than not.
And like I said in my following post, many neo-Rets in this path is not the same as many Docs or many Vigilantes, it's many every usable role in the graveyard all at once
You literally say right after this that neo-Ret is "a weaker version of every role", do you really want there to be two or three of those running around?

[Brilliand]

additional suggestion: It'd be cool if, when either neo-Ret or Necromancer died, the other would be able to use their corpse to reuse a dead role they've already used.

I like this idea, but I don't think the interface for it is possible. The Ret already needs two buttons: one for who to use, and one for where to send them. If using a Transporter, he needs three buttons: one to pick the Transporter, and two to direct the transport. If using another Ret, he needs one button + all the buttons that Ret has. 1+x=x won't work no matter what x is.

The only way this could work is if picking a target popped up a menu that could itself contain more menus, and that's not how the ToS interface is designed.

[MysticMismagius]

additional suggestion: It'd be cool if, when either neo-Ret or Necromancer died, the other would be able to use their corpse to reuse a dead role they've already used.

I like this idea, but I don't think the interface for it is possible. The Ret already needs two buttons: one for who to use, and one for where to send them. If using a Transporter, he needs three buttons: one to pick the Transporter, and two to direct the transport. If using another Ret, he needs one button + all the buttons that Ret has. 1+x=x won't work no matter what x is.

The only way this could work is if picking a target popped up a menu that could itself contain more menus, and that's not how the ToS interface is designed.

I mean Achilles is right here, we could always ask if there's a feasible way to do it
@Achilles would this suggestion be possible to implement?

[Brilliand]

If you actually read the entire post instead of cutting out one section to quote, I was not asking people to choose which one of these two paths was better, but arguing that both paths are bad and thus, no matter how you rearrange it, neo-Ret is better unique than not.

Right, and I was poking a hole in your argument by claiming that one of those two paths is not bad.

And like I said in my following post, many neo-Rets in this path is not the same as many Docs or many Vigilantes, it's many every usable role in the graveyard all at once
You literally say right after this that neo-Ret is "a weaker version of every role", do you really want there to be two or three of those running around?

I don't see how four of these existing in four separate slots is any more powerful than one of them existing in one slot (relative to number of role slots used). If anything, they would be individually weaker, because more Rets in one game would mean that fewer other Town roles rolled for them to potentially use.

If you're arguing that this version of the Ret is overpowered as it stands, well, that might be true? But I don't think so, because I think the shortage of bodies will severely hinder it even with multiple Rets not interfering with each other.

[kyuss420]

Slightly off topic, but, will Necromancer be reworked at the same time, to show TI results and use cleaned/stoned targets? I mean, without the necronomicon or a dead (and not stoned) vigi/escort/TP necromancer is very useless, sometimes being able to only use their ability once or twice a game in AA...

[orangeandblack5]

I still say that just "become the role of a non-unique dead townie" is a way simpler way to get a better outcome with less dev time

Similar outcome: sure
Better outcome: questionable
And both are copy/pastes of an existing role with some tweaks, so I fail to see how it's less effort to copy/paste one role over another
It's really a matter of personal preference, and I personally prefer this version of neo-Ret: it's more interesting to play and doesn't have the aggravating features of Amnesiac

Meanwhile:

"neo-ret HAS to be unique because otherwise there are a bunch of issues"

"how do we let neo-ret deal with roles that have more than one button?"

"maybe we should design some sort of GUI for this"

"can we rework necromancer while we're making ret?"





So yes, simpler, easier, and better

[Transcender]

other ways to fix retri:




trauma patient
there are two fixes
both could be done
at least one should be done just in general

[orangeandblack5]

It was my understanding that corpses would be reusable, just not on the same night - otherwise I agree

Abilities:
...
You may only reanimate a Town player once before their corpse rots
...

Unless you mean that multiple Neo-Rets have different pools and would only interfere with one another on the same night, but that doesn't register with what you said

That was what I was saying but tbqh I think the solution here is just to give every ret an individual pool and change the flavor from the corpse rotting to "You may only reanimate somebody one time."

As for things like Transporter, why not just make the buttons to select which role you're going to be appear next to the graveyard, and then you have the normal gui for abilities in the bottom right corner? It's a new menu still I guess but not an entire window in need of art, just some buttons near the graveyard

[Transcender]

i dont think making a town necromancer is the best idea
theres a reason its a coven role

[Robbytherobot]

I feel it works, keeps retri somewhat the same, removes dead interaction, and allows for more evil claiming instead of pushing a button and getting confirmed

[SpiritWolfLord]

For cleaned roles, ret shouldn't be able to do anything with them. They shouldn't be selectable. As for disguiser, if the disguiser has successfully disguised as a townie, maybe ret can use their ability without knowing. For example, if the dis is a doc, the ret puts doc on jailor. The lo sees the dead disguiser visit, like with necromancer (if I remember it correctly). Sheriff sees the ret as SUS for a single night (maybe), and the invest sees them as spy/bmer/jailor. This would not only give disguiser a more viable claim, but would give more utility to their ability after they die. (It would also open up the door for trolls, but I digress).

[SpiritWolfLord]

I just realized there were three pages. Ret should stay unique. One of two things would happen if it didn't. It would become more op the more you have, since they can all just use the same corpse when they want, especially if they have decent communication. It would also be easier to confirm each other of a vig dies (in non coven games). The flip side is that they can all only use a corpse once. And one ret would be given priority. This means that if they all want to use the same corpse on the same night, the "main" ret would really be the only ret while the others are basically just basic townies. Or they use them different nights, but then they are useless 3 out of 4 nights in most games.

[Robbytherobot]

Based on the information presented I think that keeping ret unique if fine, unlike now it isnt insta confirmed and the real retri has to die before the others are confirmed fake, and it is less of a headache to the game devs.

[orangeandblack5]

How exactly is having several rets too powerful to be non-unique?

Compare to things like Transporter and I don't think it will be that big a deal

[SpiritWolfLord]

Imagine four investigators checking 4 different people in one night. The next night, they all turn into sheriffs. And the next, they all turn into tp, and then they turn to vig. Granted, it wouldn't work out that well in a majority of the games, but it could be insanely powerful if they had proper coordination. We should at least see how the community does with the changes before deciding if it should lose it's unique.

[orangeandblack5]

Their power is directly related to who has died and I maintain that that's still weaker than Transporter

[wozearly]

Imagine four investigators checking 4 different people in one night. The next night, they all turn into sheriffs. And the next, they all turn into tp, and then they turn to vig. Granted, it wouldn't work out that well in a majority of the games, but it could be insanely powerful if they had proper coordination. We should at least see how the community does with the changes before deciding if it should lose it's unique.

I can entirely see the logic behind keeping Ret unique, but I think we should ideally we should be trying to limit unique roles wherever possible. I also feel we should also be limiting situations where Rets;

a) don't have a flying clue why their ability worked or failed
b) find it too easy to confirm each others' existence, or the existence of a Necro
c) cannot be safely claimed by scum roles

These principles discourage both the idea of Rets "clashing" if they try to use the same corpse, or applying any kind of random priority, or of limiting each corpse to only being used by once by any Ret during the game.

As an example, take a 'newer' Ret player rolling into a game with at least one other Ret. Chances are, they'll run into a situation where they use a TI and fail to get a result, or try to use a TP/Escort, etc. and find that it doesn't stop the evils as planned. This is likely to be frustrating and confusing and lead to false bug reports being raised. It also makes Rets difficult to use tactically, as unless all Rets are sharing their wills they won't have any idea which dead Town roles are or are not available to use at any given time until all except one Ret is dead - again, another frustrating and confusing situation.

Meanwhile, an 'experienced' Ret player will use a TI and fail to get a result and will immediately know that either there's another Ret (very likely) or that they stumbled on a Disguiser who successfully disguised as a role they could use (much less likely). The moment they hit a second failed result they'll know it's virtually certain at least one other Ret is in play.

Worse, the two have information between them that scum cannot reasonably predict in terms of a cast-iron order of who used which corpse when, which corpses were already rotted on a given day, or when both Rets attempted to use the same corpse. Trying to fake Ret in this situation will almost always lead to at least one of the other Rets knowing categorically that you must be lying for most night results. If your will has to cover 2-3 nights where roles were usable, chances are all other Rets will both know you're lying and be able to cross-confirm each other.

I don't consider any of those effects to be desirable at all.


If the starting point is that all Rets can each use someone's corpse once, it eliminates all of those problems. I can see potential issues where the flexibility of 2-3 Rets repeatedly bringing back abilities scum thought were out of play could be incredibly powerful, as it makes nightmare scenarios like 4xTP effectively more common. However, I suspect in practice Rets will struggle to confirm each other and co-ordinate early enough to achieve this in practice in most games. It'd be worth testing, either way.

It also makes Ret a fairly attractive scum claim, as Rets have a legitimate excuse for not acting consistently and their wills will inherently be a little more random and harder to categorically confirm as fake. Again, this will make it tougher for Rets to be comfortable co-ordinating with each other unless and until both are confirmed. By which point, the optimum options for co-ordination may not exist as a result of them previously acting independently.

[Brilliand]

For cleaned roles, ret shouldn't be able to do anything with them. They shouldn't be selectable. As for disguiser, if the disguiser has successfully disguised as a townie, maybe ret can use their ability without knowing. For example, if the dis is a doc, the ret puts doc on jailor. The lo sees the dead disguiser visit, like with necromancer (if I remember it correctly). Sheriff sees the ret as SUS for a single night (maybe), and the invest sees them as spy/bmer/jailor. This would not only give disguiser a more viable claim, but would give more utility to their ability after they die. (It would also open up the door for trolls, but I digress).

The trouble with the Ret using the Disguiser is that Disguiser isn't a town role, so in theory, the Ret shouldn't be able to use it. This would be a sensible interaction for the Necromancer, though.

I agree that cleaned/stoned roles should be unavailable.

Imagine four investigators checking 4 different people in one night. The next night, they all turn into sheriffs. And the next, they all turn into tp, and then they turn to vig. Granted, it wouldn't work out that well in a majority of the games, but it could be insanely powerful if they had proper coordination. We should at least see how the community does with the changes before deciding if it should lose it's unique.

That isn't remarkably more powerful than having a Sheriff, an Investigator, a TP and a Vig roll, though. OK, it's 4 vig shots instead of 3, and the vig shots come at a slightly more convenient time (after all the information has come in), but those are minor advantages - and considerable luck is required to arrive in that situation (where there are 4 living neo-Rets and a dead Vigi) in the first place.

[Achilles]

additional suggestion: It'd be cool if, when either neo-Ret or Necromancer died, the other would be able to use their corpse to reuse a dead role they've already used.

I like this idea, but I don't think the interface for it is possible. The Ret already needs two buttons: one for who to use, and one for where to send them. If using a Transporter, he needs three buttons: one to pick the Transporter, and two to direct the transport. If using another Ret, he needs one button + all the buttons that Ret has. 1+x=x won't work no matter what x is.

The only way this could work is if picking a target popped up a menu that could itself contain more menus, and that's not how the ToS interface is designed.

I mean Achilles is right here, we could always ask if there's a feasible way to do it
@Achilles would this suggestion be possible to implement?

It's actually more complicated than just dealing with the extra buttons. Transporter has role priority 2, Witch, Coven Leader, Necro and Ret have role priority 3 and Escort/Consort have role priority 4. This means Transporter is immune to Witch control and Trans, Witch, CL, Necro, Ret are all immune to role blocks. There is a logical reason for this. I'm sure some smart people in this thread can elaborate on why these role interactions have to be mutually exclusive.

Here is a hint: If I Transport an Escort into myself and I am now roleblocked, how did I transport the Escort in the first place?

[Robbytherobot]

I think non-unique rets need to be tested before we keep them unique, allowing all bodies to be used once by each retri and modify it based on how op/up it is.