Robbytherobot wrote:I agree with this rework, gives evils more claim space, makes retri less confirmed, dead info can only come from medium (making it more powerful while evils are more able to use it to their liking), I don't think retri should instantly know that the dead is disg but have their ability do nothing, While it will oftentimes be pretty obvious (lack of TI results, Vigi kill, Escort rb, etc.) the extra day is probably worth it I agree with the cleaned roles. Coven needs more parallels to town so reworking retri helps them as well.
Achilles wrote:I have talked with the community about several different ways to change the Retributionist to be less powerful but also more fun to play. The conclusion was that the only thing that really made sense was a full rework.
Retributionist - The precursor to the Necromancer
The Retributionist will become the good mirror to the evil Necromancer. Both gaining their power from the ability to temporarily revive dead players and use their night abilities one last time.
Abilities:
You may reanimate a dead Town player and use their ability on another player.
You may only reanimate a Town player once before their corpse rots Question: Does this conflict with Necromancer at all? If Necro and neo-Ret try to use the same corpse, will one of them be prevented from doing so?
You will be able to see the feedback of the roles you reanimate (Sheriff, Investigator, Lookout, etc) PLEASE give this to the real Necromancer as well. Not only does this make it easier for Necro to fake-claim neo-Ret, it also solves a major problem with the role, in that TI/Consig corpses are technically "usable" but are useless in practice
Special notes:
The Retributionist can only reanimate Town roles.
Roles without targetable night abilities will not do anything (just like Necromancer)
Design Discussion
The Retributionist power will be determined by what Town roles are in the graveyard. They will essentially be a "jack of all trades", being able to use TI roles 1 extra time and provide information to the Town, being able to use a dead Vigilante to shoot evil roles, being able to use a BodyGuard, Doctor or Crusader to protect a priority Town member. There will however be several Town roles that are of no use to the Retributionist (Jailor, Medium, Psychic, Veteran to name a few).
Important considerations:
I'm still in the process of brainstorming how Ret will interact with cleaned roles or a Disguiser. I am currently thinking the Ret could be used to determine if a role in the graveyard was actually a Disguiser or attempting to use a cleaned role to figure out what that role was. I don't like this idea. I guess it makes sense as a way to figure out who the cleaned might be in case they leave, but I don't want Janitor's ability to have too many counters, as it's one of the few good Mafia roles right now. Allowing neo-Ret to try to use the corpse of a cleaned role means that it remains a counter to Janitor even after the nerf.
Brilliand wrote: I am, overall, worried about the Retributionist running out of bodies to use. If the first three nights are "Sheriff dies", "Investigator dies", and "Maf hits an immune", then the retri spends the first three nights functioning as half of a TI. To compensate for that... perhaps non-killing roles should have two uses instead of one? (it's a minor thing, though.)
Brilliand wrote: I also think that certain non-visiting roles could be usable by the Retributionist. The Psychic and Veteran both have abilities that apply at the end of the night, so there's in principle no reason the Retri couldn't use them to get one night of Psychic results, and go on a Veteran-like alert once.
MysticMismagius wrote: Question: Does this conflict with Necromancer at all? If Necro and neo-Ret try to use the same corpse, will one of them be prevented from doing so?
Achilles wrote:Abilities:
You may reanimate a dead Town player and use their ability on another player.
You may only reanimate a Town player once before their corpse rots
You will be able to see the feedback of the roles you reanimate (Sheriff, Investigator, Lookout, etc)
Special notes:
The Retributionist can only reanimate Town roles.
Roles without targetable night abilities will not do anything (just like Necromancer)
Achilles wrote:Important considerations:
I'm still in the process of brainstorming how Ret will interact with cleaned roles or a Disguiser. I am currently thinking the Ret could be used to determine if a role in the graveyard was actually a Disguiser or attempting to use a cleaned role to figure out what that role was.
Brilliand wrote:I think the Disguiser should function as the role that it shows as in the graveyard, so if it died disguised as Escort then the ret can use it as an Escort.
Brilliand wrote:I am, overall, worried about the Retributionist running out of bodies to use. If the first three nights are "Sheriff dies", "Investigator dies", and "Maf hits an immune", then the retri spends the first three nights functioning as half of a TI. To compensate for that... perhaps non-killing roles should have two uses instead of one? (it's a minor thing, though.)
Brilliand wrote:I also think that certain non-visiting roles could be usable by the Retributionist. The Psychic and Veteran both have abilities that apply at the end of the night, so there's in principle no reason the Retri couldn't use them to get one night of Psychic results, and go on a Veteran-like alert once.
Robbytherobot wrote:I have a question is retri still unique here, or can any townie be one, I personally don't like unique roles (except town power).
JakeTheSnake5963 wrote:Firstly, I am wondering if the dead corpse that will be used by neo-retri will be selected during the day then used at night, or will they be selected and used at night? If a corpse were to be selected during the night, roles such as transporter that interact with two people would do nothing if chosen (similar to necromancer). I feel that neo-retri should have to select the corpse during the daytime so at night the transporter's requirement to select 2 people won't be an issue.
JakeTheSnake5963 wrote:MysticMismagius wrote: Question: Does this conflict with Necromancer at all? If Necro and neo-Ret try to use the same corpse, will one of them be prevented from doing so?
In my opinion I feel that it should directly affect the necromancer. Personally I think that if a corpse is used by one, it shouldn't be able to be used again by either. If both the retri and necro were to attempt to use the same corpse on the same night, neither of them should be granted the corpses ability and the corpse could remain unused. Instead, a notification should come up letting each role know of the other's existence and that the corpse was unusable because of it. This will make it a priority for both town and coven to get rid of the corresponding role as they would lock each other into a stalemate. If the necro/neo-retri were to be interferred with at night the other could continue as per usual. I don't believe this would be a bad thing because it would disadvantage both town and coven equally until either faction finds and gets rid of the role in question.
ak521 wrote:I disagree with this - many townies will leave once they see there is no medium. The retributionist encourages people NOT to leave.
JakeTheSnake5963 wrote:I personally like the idea of veteran being usable as it would really suck if the one TK in the game is a vet that dies early. This would at least allow neo-retri to be less of a sitting duck for mafia as it can guarantee defense for itself for one night without using a TP corpse, and it creates doubt (not a guaranteed kill). This is a fair trade-off for not being able to shoot an evil if a vigi simply isn't in the game.
JakeTheSnake5963 wrote:In terms of the psychic, I am torn due to the argument that if a psychic can be reanimated, why can't a medium? A revived medium could in theory allow for neo-retri to talk with the dead for one night, but this will just result in a similar combo that currently exists right now (neo-retri reanimates medium to talk with the dead, medium seances confirmed townie and retri is then confirmed). I personally don't mind having psychic able to be reanimated on its own, but I feel that its similar ties to medium based on the fact that they are both non-visiting roles and similar in character may make it difficult to implement one but not the other.
wozearly wrote:Brilliand wrote:I think the Disguiser should function as the role that it shows as in the graveyard, so if it died disguised as Escort then the ret can use it as an Escort.
That would pretty much force Disguisers to avoid disguising as TPs, Escort and Vigilante unless they're 100% certain there's no retri, as those roles will all end up being used against the remaining Mafia. Disguisers have it bad enough without landing that on them as well.
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