Balance Discussions Part 2

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Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Achilles » Sun May 03, 2020 2:51 pm

Part 2 includes changes from the previous discussion.

Hey everyone,

Along with the coming Town Traitor game modes we are looking at doing a balancing patch when we take ranked into off-season. This will allow us to test the balance changes and propose ranked practice role lists for what will be the fifth season of ranked. The goal of this post is to open up communication and brainstorm on potential changes while we are still early in the process so that there will be time to make adjustments. Please feel free to discuss any thoughts you may have about issues with the current meta and what you would like to see going into Season 5.

Mafioso
Allow a 1 time use per game Ninja (thematic synonym to Astral) Attack.

Thought process: In the current meta the Jailor has no fear of announcing himself on day 1, knowing that Town Protective's and the Lookout will guard him, making it impossible for the Mafia to deal with them. If the Mafioso has 1 Ninja Attack per game it would give the Mafia an opportunity to bypass a BodyGuard/Trap on a priority role, as well as avoid detection by Lookout/Spy. An added bonus is that this gives the Mafioso something unique to help the Mafia outside of just following the Godfather's orders.

Framer
Limited number of uses to target your own Mafia members, making them appear innocent.

Jailor
Jailor cannot jail the same player on consecutive nights (similar to Pirate). If a Jailor executes a Town member they will commit suicide the following night (like Vigilante).

Potential future changes
These are changes that are up in the air still. Some of these changes are not trivial and will delay how long a balance patch will take.

Disguiser
Instead of taking on the role of your target, you can select from a list of all possible roles to disguise as for the night.
OR
Choose a target at night to disguise their role with a role from a list of all possible roles. Limited to 1 successful use.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Superalex11 » Sun May 03, 2020 2:54 pm

Mm, since it wasn't answered before I'll ask again, but with more clarification:

To what extent do you intend on making balance changes in modes other than ranked (or ranked practice)? Is your goal to focus solely around ranked (or its rolelist)? If not, how much will balance effects on other modes be taken into consideration?
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Achilles » Sun May 03, 2020 2:56 pm

Superalex11 wrote:Mm, since it wasn't answered before I'll ask again, but with more clarification:

To what extent do you intend on making balance changes in modes other than ranked (or ranked practice)? Is your goal to focus solely around ranked (or its rolelist)? If not, how much will balance effects on other modes be taken into consideration?


Balance changes made for ranked are going to effect every game mode. We likely wont be looking to adjust any other game modes until we see the effects of these changes first.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby MysticMismagius » Sun May 03, 2020 2:59 pm

Like previously mentioned, Forger and Retributionist also need some work done.

Forger, as things currently stand, is a Diet Janitor. There's very little a Forger can do that a Janitor can't do just as well if not better, and those few things are situational and/or require Consigliere support. It needs some ability or power to differentiate itself from Janitor, or it needs to be removed for redundancy.

Ret is quite the doozy. The sheer act of reviving confirms both the Retributionist and the revived role, as well as confirming/denying the existence of Mediums and setting evils back a day. Imo it needs to go. The "light-sided Necro" idea is my favorite right now.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby alvac2012 » Sun May 03, 2020 3:00 pm

@achilles, your proposed ret change is good, but the issue is moreso that ret is too op in ranked. Balancing ret solely for balancing ranked isn't good. I think no one will complain if ret gets removed from the role list.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Achilles » Sun May 03, 2020 3:03 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:Like previously mentioned, Forger and Retributionist also need some work done.

Forger, as things currently stand, is a Diet Janitor. There's very little a Forger can do that a Janitor can't do just as well if not better, and those few things are situational and/or require Consigliere support. It needs some ability or power to differentiate itself from Janitor, or it needs to be removed for redundancy.

Ret is quite the doozy. The sheer act of reviving confirms both the Retributionist and the revived role, as well as confirming/denying the existence of Mediums and setting evils back a day. Imo it needs to go. The "light-sided Necro" idea is my favorite right now.


Yeah I'm trying to get a confirmed "yes this is a good change" from the community on the above posted changes before addressing other roles. Just because it isn't on the list just yet doesn't mean it isn't included. The Part 3 thread will include more changes. Note that the Mafioso was changed to a Ninja/Astral attack instead of an unstoppable attack. It similarly bypasses the BodyGuard and stops the Lookout/Spy, however it will not kill Veterans, Executioners, NKs and will not bypass Doctor heal.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby saixos » Sun May 03, 2020 3:04 pm

I'm not sure how I feel about the mafioso proposal still being discussed after the strong negative feedback on the previous thread.

@Achilles what sort of arguments/suggestions are you looking for to toss that suggestion in the bin? Also, what are your current thoughts on retri and forger after seeing the feedback in the previous thread? What general vision do you have for changes, what are you looking to achieve overall?
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Achilles » Sun May 03, 2020 3:05 pm

saixos wrote:I'm not sure how I feel about the mafioso proposal still being discussed after the strong negative feedback on the previous thread.

@Achilles what sort of arguments/suggestions are you looking for to toss that suggestion in the bin? Also, what are your current thoughts on retri and forger after seeing the feedback in the previous thread? What general vision do you have for changes, what are you looking to achieve overall?


Reread the post. It is entirely different now. It is an Astral attack not an unstoppable attack.

Reworking Ret entirely seems like the only solution at this point. Maybe tweaking it to be the good mirror to the Necromancer would make the most sense.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Royee » Sun May 03, 2020 3:07 pm

@Achilles what do you think about exchanging jailor in a town power slot?
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby TurdPile » Sun May 03, 2020 3:19 pm

Achilles wrote:Jailor
Jailor cannot jail the same player on consecutive nights (similar to Pirate). If a Jailor executes a Town member they will commit suicide the following night (like Vigilante).


Make it so it can't jail, rather than suicide, and I'm game. Having two town roles spawn in a game that can subsequently nuke themselves and give mafia majority seems bad, even if the argument is 'play better'. I mean you already kill 1 townie by mistake, and next day a total loss of 3 town votes (if evils kill at least 1 town). That's snowball-y.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Brilliand » Sun May 03, 2020 3:20 pm

I'm weakly in favor of the Mafioso change, but I'll note that it has to be more than an Astral attack: if the Doctor is able to heal off a Ninja attack, then it isn't much use.

Achilles wrote:Maybe there could be a Ret rework that spins them into more of the good mirror to the Necromancer.


Yes, this has been proposed under the title "light-side necromancer". I'm strongly in favor of reworking the Ret this way.

The proposal as I interpret it:

Each night, the Retributionist can select one dead player. That dead player will be given a "charge", that they can then use on any subsequent night to use their role's power while dead (the Sheriff can check someone, the Jailor can jail and execute someone, etc.) The Retributionist will will be told how the dead player uses their charge and what feedback they get from its use, so that TIs can be useful without a Medium.

Some special cases:
  • A Medium selected by the Retributionist gains an additional seance
  • A dead Bodyguard probably shouldn't be usable at all, since he can't "give his life" in the way that is needed for balance
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby MysticMismagius » Sun May 03, 2020 3:26 pm

Brilliand's post reminded me of something. This is not for ranked, but can the actual Necromancer please get info from TI/Consig that it uses? Right now it's pretty useless to reanimate those roles.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Creedastic » Sun May 03, 2020 3:27 pm

Achilles wrote:Mafioso
Allow a 1 time use per game Ninja (thematic synonym to Astral) Attack.

I'd like to see this. It has potential for Mafia, and it's not overpowered, like the previous suggestion was.

Achilles wrote:Framer
Limited number of uses to target your own Mafia members, making them appear innocent.

It's a desired change, Framer is weak so he can use buffs like this. I might add that Forger is also weak. Giving him the ability to see the will before forging it would be a suggestion.

Achilles wrote:Jailor
Jailor cannot jail the same player on consecutive nights (similar to Pirate). If a Jailor executes a Town member they will commit suicide the following night (like Vigilante).

The first part means that Town's draws are essentially obliterated in the end. They all become losses now. I think it's overkill, but testing it will give a more accurate answer.
The second part, I disagree with, because I don't think you need to bring Jailor's power level that low. How would the game look for Town if the Jailor could die early from the said Mafioso change, but also suicide early? It's a big mess we don't really need.

Achilles wrote:Disguiser
Instead of taking on the role of your target, you can select from a list of all possible roles to disguise as for the night.
OR
Choose a target at night to disguise their role with a role from a list of all possible roles. Limited to 1 successful use.

I disagree with buffing Disguiser. I've seen Disguisers win games for their teams before when playing well, so I don't think this is required. If you think they really need a buff, you can give him an Astral Visit, and nobody will see him disguise, but not from a list. He has to choose a living player.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Achilles » Sun May 03, 2020 3:29 pm

Brilliand wrote:I'm weakly in favor of the Mafioso change, but I'll note that it has to be more than an Astral attack: if the Doctor is able to heal off a Ninja attack, then it isn't much use.


It bypasses BodyGuard, Lookout and Spy. That is a pretty big buff. Sure basic defense can still stop it but I think that is a large buff and change to the meta. It becomes a game of find the Doctor and then the Jailor is dead (RB or kill Doctor first).
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Brilliand » Sun May 03, 2020 3:35 pm

Achilles wrote:
Brilliand wrote:I'm weakly in favor of the Mafioso change, but I'll note that it has to be more than an Astral attack: if the Doctor is able to heal off a Ninja attack, then it isn't much use.


It bypasses BodyGuard, Lookout and Spy. That is a pretty big buff. Sure basic defense can still stop it but I think that is a large buff and change to the meta. It becomes a game of find the Doctor and then the Jailor is dead (RB or kill Doctor first).


If there is exactly one Doctor, and the other TP/LO don't decide to be on that Doctor.

The Mafioso can't risk using his ninja on the Jailor to test whether there's a Doctor, since he can only use that attack once.

It's in some ways a strong ability, but I don't think it's strong enough to get through the mountain of protection that comes from the tp/lo meta.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby killstrikers » Sun May 03, 2020 3:37 pm

Achilles wrote:Mafioso
Allow a 1 time use per game Ninja (thematic synonym to Astral) Attack.

Thought process: In the current meta the Jailor has no fear of announcing himself on day 1, knowing that Town Protective's and the Lookout will guard him, making it impossible for the Mafia to deal with them. If the Mafioso has 1 Ninja Attack per game it would give the Mafia an opportunity to bypass a BodyGuard/Trap on a priority role, as well as avoid detection by Lookout/Spy. An added bonus is that this gives the Mafioso something unique to help the Mafia outside of just following the Godfather's orders.

Jailor
Jailor cannot jail the same player on consecutive nights (similar to Pirate). If a Jailor executes a Town member they will commit suicide the following night (like Vigilante).

Potential future changes
These are changes that are up in the air still. Some of these changes are not trivial and will delay how long a balance patch will take.


For mafia Astral attack:
Jailors would start dying left and right in ranked games, perhaps jailors shouldn't be able to talk N1 to at least give Mafia a chance to be able to randomly kill Jailor and would circumvent tp/los possibly getting confirmed by Day 2 giving mafia a better chance to claim unconfirmed roles and cause confusion. Would be a simple but pretty fair balance.

For jailor punishment.
Jailor should at least be limited to 2 consecutive jailing nights. I agree anymore than that is just too much. Losing exes is already devastating enough for a jailor and town, suicide is just way too over the top. If there were to be an additional punishment for jailor, it could be preventing them from jailing the next night after a misexecution.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby alvac2012 » Sun May 03, 2020 3:59 pm

killstrikers wrote:
For mafia Astral attack:
Jailors would start dying left and right in ranked games, perhaps jailors shouldn't be able to talk N1 to at least give Mafia a chance to be able to randomly kill Jailor and would circumvent tp/los possibly getting confirmed by Day 2 giving mafia a better chance to claim unconfirmed roles and cause confusion. Would be a simple but pretty fair balance.

For jailor punishment.
Jailor should at least be limited to 2 consecutive jailing nights. I agree anymore than that is just too much. Losing exes is already devastating enough for a jailor and town, suicide is just way too over the top. If there were to be an additional punishment for jailor, it could be preventing them from jailing the next night after a misexecution.


I don't agree with preventing jailor from jailing the next night after a misexecution because there are times where jailor needs to exe town to confirm rt. I've seen it happen before.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby alvac2012 » Sun May 03, 2020 4:01 pm

@Achilles Would the astral attack only apply to the first mafioso? Or would it be for each mafioso? Also, is it an extra attack? Or is it that night's attack?
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Joacgroso » Sun May 03, 2020 4:10 pm

killstrikers wrote:For mafia Astral attack:
Jailors would start dying left and right in ranked games, perhaps jailors shouldn't be able to talk N1 to at least give Mafia a chance to be able to randomly kill Jailor and would circumvent tp/los possibly getting confirmed by Day 2 giving mafia a better chance to claim unconfirmed roles and cause confusion. Would be a simple but pretty fair balance.

Making jailors unable to talk day 1 wouldn't solve the problem. The meta would evolve into everyone talking day 1 to confirm themselves as not-jailor. Then everyone would be on someone who didn't talk. Jailor would reveal on day 2 and everyone who didn't talk day 1 would be lynched.
Besides, the problem with jailor meta isn't protecting the jailor, it's that it makes claiming lookout, spy or TP almost impossible since if you don't visit the jailor you die. This greatly reduces claimspace for evils, especially if there are a lookout and a spy who confirm everyone who visited the jailor n1.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby alvac2012 » Sun May 03, 2020 4:15 pm

So something completely unrelated, I just had a game where I was doc and I was healed. The spy read the message "your target's target was attacked" as "your target was attacked." Can this change to "your target was healed"? Or would it be different for each role. I get that it's a slight town buff, but also, pretty unlikely.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby killstrikers » Sun May 03, 2020 4:21 pm

alvac2012 wrote: I don't agree with preventing jailor from jailing the next night after a misexecution because there are times where jailor needs to exe town to confirm rt. I've seen it happen before.


I see your point, but compared to losing jailing rights altogether or outright suicide from killing a townie it could be a better option imo. I'm personally not in favor of having any more punishment other than losing exes but if the community really wants to see jailor nerfed/punished more for it, it could be a fair middle ground. Especially if non-consecutive jailing were to be implemented.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Achilles » Sun May 03, 2020 4:24 pm

alvac2012 wrote:@Achilles Would the astral attack only apply to the first mafioso? Or would it be for each mafioso? Also, is it an extra attack? Or is it that night's attack?


Only that nights attack. Mafia still limited to 1 kill per night. As for whether or not a promoted Mafioso will get the Ninja ability currently I am thinking no but it could definitely be done that way.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby killstrikers » Sun May 03, 2020 4:29 pm

Joacgroso wrote:Making jailors unable to talk day 1 wouldn't solve the problem. The meta would evolve into everyone talking day 1 to confirm themselves as not-jailor. Then everyone would be on someone who didn't talk. Jailor would reveal on day 2 and everyone who didn't talk day 1 would be lynched.
Besides, the problem with jailor meta isn't protecting the jailor, it's that it makes claiming lookout, spy or TP almost impossible since if you don't visit the jailor you die. This greatly reduces claimspace for evils, especially if there are a lookout and a spy who confirm everyone who visited the jailor n1.


Good point, and there were suggestions of removing D1 chat altogether, whats your opinion on that change instead?
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Achilles » Sun May 03, 2020 4:38 pm

killstrikers wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:Making jailors unable to talk day 1 wouldn't solve the problem. The meta would evolve into everyone talking day 1 to confirm themselves as not-jailor. Then everyone would be on someone who didn't talk. Jailor would reveal on day 2 and everyone who didn't talk day 1 would be lynched.
Besides, the problem with jailor meta isn't protecting the jailor, it's that it makes claiming lookout, spy or TP almost impossible since if you don't visit the jailor you die. This greatly reduces claimspace for evils, especially if there are a lookout and a spy who confirm everyone who visited the jailor n1.


Good point, and there were suggestions of removing D1 chat altogether, whats your opinion on that change instead?


I've already stated that I'm not going to remove D1 chat just to try to tweak the balance of a single role in the game. That is like doing surgery with a sledge hammer instead of a scalpel.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby killstrikers » Sun May 03, 2020 4:57 pm

@Achilles It's hammer time!
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