Superalex11 wrote:Mm, since it wasn't answered before I'll ask again, but with more clarification:
To what extent do you intend on making balance changes in modes other than ranked (or ranked practice)? Is your goal to focus solely around ranked (or its rolelist)? If not, how much will balance effects on other modes be taken into consideration?
MysticMismagius wrote:Like previously mentioned, Forger and Retributionist also need some work done.
Forger, as things currently stand, is a Diet Janitor. There's very little a Forger can do that a Janitor can't do just as well if not better, and those few things are situational and/or require Consigliere support. It needs some ability or power to differentiate itself from Janitor, or it needs to be removed for redundancy.
Ret is quite the doozy. The sheer act of reviving confirms both the Retributionist and the revived role, as well as confirming/denying the existence of Mediums and setting evils back a day. Imo it needs to go. The "light-sided Necro" idea is my favorite right now.
saixos wrote:I'm not sure how I feel about the mafioso proposal still being discussed after the strong negative feedback on the previous thread.
@Achilles what sort of arguments/suggestions are you looking for to toss that suggestion in the bin? Also, what are your current thoughts on retri and forger after seeing the feedback in the previous thread? What general vision do you have for changes, what are you looking to achieve overall?
Achilles wrote:Jailor
Jailor cannot jail the same player on consecutive nights (similar to Pirate). If a Jailor executes a Town member they will commit suicide the following night (like Vigilante).
Achilles wrote:Maybe there could be a Ret rework that spins them into more of the good mirror to the Necromancer.
Each night, the Retributionist can select one dead player. That dead player will be given a "charge", that they can then use on any subsequent night to use their role's power while dead (the Sheriff can check someone, the Jailor can jail and execute someone, etc.) The Retributionist will will be told how the dead player uses their charge and what feedback they get from its use, so that TIs can be useful without a Medium.
Some special cases:
- A Medium selected by the Retributionist gains an additional seance
- A dead Bodyguard probably shouldn't be usable at all, since he can't "give his life" in the way that is needed for balance
Achilles wrote:Mafioso
Allow a 1 time use per game Ninja (thematic synonym to Astral) Attack.
Achilles wrote:Framer
Limited number of uses to target your own Mafia members, making them appear innocent.
Achilles wrote:Jailor
Jailor cannot jail the same player on consecutive nights (similar to Pirate). If a Jailor executes a Town member they will commit suicide the following night (like Vigilante).
Achilles wrote:Disguiser
Instead of taking on the role of your target, you can select from a list of all possible roles to disguise as for the night.
OR
Choose a target at night to disguise their role with a role from a list of all possible roles. Limited to 1 successful use.
Brilliand wrote:I'm weakly in favor of the Mafioso change, but I'll note that it has to be more than an Astral attack: if the Doctor is able to heal off a Ninja attack, then it isn't much use.
Achilles wrote:Brilliand wrote:I'm weakly in favor of the Mafioso change, but I'll note that it has to be more than an Astral attack: if the Doctor is able to heal off a Ninja attack, then it isn't much use.
It bypasses BodyGuard, Lookout and Spy. That is a pretty big buff. Sure basic defense can still stop it but I think that is a large buff and change to the meta. It becomes a game of find the Doctor and then the Jailor is dead (RB or kill Doctor first).
Achilles wrote:Mafioso
Allow a 1 time use per game Ninja (thematic synonym to Astral) Attack.
Thought process: In the current meta the Jailor has no fear of announcing himself on day 1, knowing that Town Protective's and the Lookout will guard him, making it impossible for the Mafia to deal with them. If the Mafioso has 1 Ninja Attack per game it would give the Mafia an opportunity to bypass a BodyGuard/Trap on a priority role, as well as avoid detection by Lookout/Spy. An added bonus is that this gives the Mafioso something unique to help the Mafia outside of just following the Godfather's orders.
Jailor
Jailor cannot jail the same player on consecutive nights (similar to Pirate). If a Jailor executes a Town member they will commit suicide the following night (like Vigilante).
Potential future changes
These are changes that are up in the air still. Some of these changes are not trivial and will delay how long a balance patch will take.
killstrikers wrote:
For mafia Astral attack:
Jailors would start dying left and right in ranked games, perhaps jailors shouldn't be able to talk N1 to at least give Mafia a chance to be able to randomly kill Jailor and would circumvent tp/los possibly getting confirmed by Day 2 giving mafia a better chance to claim unconfirmed roles and cause confusion. Would be a simple but pretty fair balance.
For jailor punishment.
Jailor should at least be limited to 2 consecutive jailing nights. I agree anymore than that is just too much. Losing exes is already devastating enough for a jailor and town, suicide is just way too over the top. If there were to be an additional punishment for jailor, it could be preventing them from jailing the next night after a misexecution.
killstrikers wrote:For mafia Astral attack:
Jailors would start dying left and right in ranked games, perhaps jailors shouldn't be able to talk N1 to at least give Mafia a chance to be able to randomly kill Jailor and would circumvent tp/los possibly getting confirmed by Day 2 giving mafia a better chance to claim unconfirmed roles and cause confusion. Would be a simple but pretty fair balance.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.
alvac2012 wrote: I don't agree with preventing jailor from jailing the next night after a misexecution because there are times where jailor needs to exe town to confirm rt. I've seen it happen before.
alvac2012 wrote:@Achilles Would the astral attack only apply to the first mafioso? Or would it be for each mafioso? Also, is it an extra attack? Or is it that night's attack?
Joacgroso wrote:Making jailors unable to talk day 1 wouldn't solve the problem. The meta would evolve into everyone talking day 1 to confirm themselves as not-jailor. Then everyone would be on someone who didn't talk. Jailor would reveal on day 2 and everyone who didn't talk day 1 would be lynched.
Besides, the problem with jailor meta isn't protecting the jailor, it's that it makes claiming lookout, spy or TP almost impossible since if you don't visit the jailor you die. This greatly reduces claimspace for evils, especially if there are a lookout and a spy who confirm everyone who visited the jailor n1.
killstrikers wrote:Joacgroso wrote:Making jailors unable to talk day 1 wouldn't solve the problem. The meta would evolve into everyone talking day 1 to confirm themselves as not-jailor. Then everyone would be on someone who didn't talk. Jailor would reveal on day 2 and everyone who didn't talk day 1 would be lynched.
Besides, the problem with jailor meta isn't protecting the jailor, it's that it makes claiming lookout, spy or TP almost impossible since if you don't visit the jailor you die. This greatly reduces claimspace for evils, especially if there are a lookout and a spy who confirm everyone who visited the jailor n1.
Good point, and there were suggestions of removing D1 chat altogether, whats your opinion on that change instead?
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