Balance Discussions Part 2

[BS4125]

Mainly, I think that Parity Cop should be in the game before the thing that sees the number of roles and specifically non-Town roles that visited its targets. It's unique, has its own upsides and drawbacks, and wouldn't be an awful fit - but Parity Cop just straight wins over that role for me, and so I'd much rather see it put in first. Additionally, the lack of Town Scout specifically for roles like the TG Spy and Medium means it would just be thrown into Town Support.

If the devs want to do both at once that's fine, but I kinda doubt it's that easy, so I'll push for Parity Cop as a Spy rework first.

I'd be good with TG Spy replacing current Spy, with a few edits for sure tho as I'm not keen on the role choosing whether to target 1 or 2 players and it should see how many non-town roles visit rather than those with Basic Defense as otherwise there's no functionality behind it. TG Spy at least resembles the functionality of Spy currently too as it's focused on visits, I'd prefer Parity Cop being added as another role really

Also it'll be put under TI not TS, it's just categorised differently in TG due to issues with role functionality but with edits it can easily match TI level of power

[alvac2012]

Hey guys, some really good changes are being discussed here. Let me explain my thoughts about some of them:

Jailor
Jailor cannot jail the same player on consecutive nights (similar to Pirate). If a Jailor executes a Town member they will commit suicide the following night (like Vigilante).

Really like this one, makes the jailor think twice before executing a player, aswell denies them from jailing the godfather nonstop when they have been identified and mafioso has already died.

Losing exe's and town member is bad enough. Someone mentioned earlier that throwers will only gain more power from the jailor suicide nerf. I don't think that it should be that jailor can't jail for over 2 consecutive nights b/c sometimes, jailor realizes someone is guilty and has to jail and exe them the next night after already jailing them. I think that 2 consecutive nights will be able to remove the issue you are trying to address while making sure that Jailor's utility is still there.

[Mmmmbuti]

I fear that overall these changes might be overkill. I'm an high ELO player but I also play coven all any and other modes.
Yes the town is slightly stronger in ranked but not so much. If you buff 3 - 4 mafia roles, and at the same time you nerf the jailor, mafia will suddenly be much stronger than the town, and you will have a worse problem than the one you fixed.

Also, can we please add something to encourage people to play ranked coven? I have never been able to play that mode because nobody does. Classic coven and ranked practice coven are also very difficult to play because of lack of interest.

[orangeandblack5]

I will admit that I'm pretty sure I haven't played Ranked at all this season so have not been "high elo" in years but I think this comment from the CrowZoneMan on the Reddit was apt (rest of this post is his):



This is something I really like with the high ELO players (from the thread):

>SwampRabbit: "As an actual high ELO player, town is absolutely not OP at higher ELOs."

>Kingmaker9999: "I'm a high elo ranked player", "Town can do multiple mistakes during the game and still easily win, while the mafia has to play perfectly and even then, it's not even sure they will be close to winning."

>BabyDragonTamer: "as a high elo player I can say that I have many opinions on this.", "I do believe that sometimes town seems to win more often than evils do, but that depends on the role lists."

>Saphron: "more high elo player input here since this subject interests me.", "Town is absolutely stronger than mafia."

So to sum it up, town is absolutely not op, town is pretty much op, it depends on role lists, and town is op.

[orangeandblack5]

Also, can we please add something to encourage people to play ranked coven? I have never been able to play that mode because nobody does. Classic coven and ranked practice coven are also very difficult to play because of lack of interest.

Lack of popularity is often related to disinterest in what the mode provides.

I just can't honestly say that playing Coven improves on the base game, and I'm sure many agree.

The only way to "add something" to encourage people to play a mode is to make it fun and worth playing, and as of right now I think Coven is far too chaotic and unfocused for a lot of players to gravitate towards, especially given the extra $5 required to play.

Coven Ranked in particular is almost an oxymoron, and I'm really not sure there's anything you can "add" to change that. Things just need to undergo drastic changes.

However, in order to get players to try out Coven, you have to have them sold on the base game first, and that's why I think it's so important that the devs push out a massive rebalancing patch soon. They really need to bring people back to try out Unity, and the best way to do that is with a large shakeup and new roles.

[Mmmmbuti]

So to sum it up, town is absolutely not op, town is pretty much op, it depends on role lists, and town is op.

I think the right answer is "It depends on the role list". The more TS there are, the stronger is the town. Also depends on the evil roles, Consort + Janitor + Witch for example can easily make the town helpless.

[orangeandblack5]

But there's only one Ranked role list

How does it depend on the role list

If you mean some hypothetical different role list would be different then yeah I guess but like nobody is really talking about changing the role list when they mention that

I'm just lost on how that's relevant if you aren't also suggesting a role list change

[orangeandblack5]

Also fwiw I think swapping the TS slot for another RT is probably good, at least until Mafia Tactical Kills are hopefully added

[Mmmmbuti]

The only way to "add something" to encourage people to play a mode is to make it fun and worth playing, and as of right now I think Coven is far too chaotic and unfocused for a lot of players to gravitate towards, especially given the extra $5 required to play.

But there are lots of players in Coven chaos modes! The wait time to start a game is minimal. It's an absolute waste IMHO, people pay to access the expansion and then just play the chaotic part of it.

[Mmmmbuti]

But there's only one Ranked role list

How does it depend on the role list

If you mean some hypothetical different role list would be different then yeah I guess but like nobody is really talking about changing the role list when they mention that

I'm just lost on how that's relevant if you aren't also suggesting a role list change

I meant, depends on what are the RTs and RMs. The more RTs are TS the stronger the town is, while at the same time Consort and Janitor are much more useful than Framer and Forger.

[orangeandblack5]

The only way to "add something" to encourage people to play a mode is to make it fun and worth playing, and as of right now I think Coven is far too chaotic and unfocused for a lot of players to gravitate towards, especially given the extra $5 required to play.

But there are lots of players in Coven chaos modes! The wait time to start a game is minimal. It's an absolute waste IMHO, people pay to access the expansion and then just play the chaotic part of it.

Because the expansion itself is chaotic, so the people who play it gravitate towards the chaotic modes?

[orangeandblack5]

But there's only one Ranked role list

How does it depend on the role list

If you mean some hypothetical different role list would be different then yeah I guess but like nobody is really talking about changing the role list when they mention that

I'm just lost on how that's relevant if you aren't also suggesting a role list change

I meant, depends on what are the RTs and RMs. The more RTs are TS the stronger the town is, while at the same time Consort and Janitor are much more useful than Framer and Forger.

Which is literally the exact thing we're trying to fix here

Reducing swing is like the theme

[Mmmmbuti]

I fear that overall these changes might be overkill. I'm an high ELO player but I also play coven all any and other modes.
Yes the town is slightly stronger in ranked but not so much. If you buff 3 - 4 mafia roles, and at the same time you nerf the jailor, mafia will suddenly be much stronger than the town, and you will have a worse problem than the one you fixed.

balancing isn't as simple as only looking at utility balance between alignments

it's a factor, sure, but you also have to consider that a lot of changes have a main purpose that isn't buffing/nerfing for the sake of buffing/nerfing, they are to fix external issues (for example, in the case of reducing town confirmability, the main purpose in doing so is to reduce the extent to which easy solving is prevalent)

by not allowing these changes which solve issues because you don't want to alter the utility of some alignment/s, you leave the issues unsolved, which is fairly stupid given that utility balance between alignments can quite easily get to what is desired by tacking on appropriate buffs/nerfs to the applicable alignment/s

Achilles posted that the premise of this discussion is:

Current Thoughts
Town is stronger than Mafia, especially at higher ELOs

While I somewhat agree with this, I think if they implement all the proposed changes we will have the opposite result.
Jailor is not OP per se in its current state. So if you buff the mafia, there is no need to nerf Jailor IMHO.

[Mmmmbuti]

Because the expansion itself is chaotic, so the people who play it gravitate towards the chaotic modes?

Could you please lose this tipically American condescending tone with me? In Europe it's considered rude.

I don't find the Coven roles particularly chaotic, maybe it's just a matter of restricting which neutral roles can be present in Ranked Coven?

[orangeandblack5]

Achilles posted that the premise of this discussion is:

Current Thoughts
Town is stronger than Mafia, especially at higher ELOs

While I somewhat agree with this, I think if they implement all the proposed changes we will have the opposite result.
Jailor is not OP per se in its current state. So if you buff the mafia, there is no need to nerf Jailor IMHO.

Presumably he's the only one in the discussion with the ability to actually check, so I would assume that it's not so much a matter of agreeing with his premise as it is the case that he has the actual statistics and is stating a fact.

I'd appreciate if we were also given these statistics, but unfortunately they have not been released.

Ultimately, the idea behind Jailor nerfs is less "make Town less strong," which can be accomplished in any number of ways, and moreso "reduce the amount that the strength of the Town depends on how good of a player the Jailor is," which fits into the overall theme of reducing swing. Reducing Town's power is certainly part of it, but what makes it a good idea is that it also helps reduce swing.

Because the expansion itself is chaotic, so the people who play it gravitate towards the chaotic modes?

Could you please lose this tipically American condescending tone with me? In Europe it's considered rude.

I don't find the Coven roles particularly chaotic, maybe it's just a matter of restricting which neutral roles can be present in Ranked Coven?

I literally would never have imagined that that question could come off as condescending, so I thank you for noting that there is clearly a cultural barrier there and informing me so I may try to avoid rubbing you the wrong way further. I'd appreciate if you continue to give me a bit of leniency on this front, but do feel free to let me know if I'm still acting in a way you see as rude.

Also when I say "Coven" I'm referring to the expansion moreso than the faction, so yes, the Neutrals are included in my assessment of the expansion as being more chaotic.

[Applemader666]

Oy vey, why don't you guys just add a rolestopper(aka TG Stalker) and make it so jester and exe are in another subalignment with witch and rolestopper being NE

I will admit that I'm pretty sure I haven't played Ranked at all this season so have not been "high elo" in years but I think this comment from the CrowZoneMan on the Reddit was apt (rest of this post is his):



This is something I really like with the high ELO players (from the thread):

>SwampRabbit: "As an actual high ELO player, town is absolutely not OP at higher ELOs."

>Kingmaker9999: "I'm a high elo ranked player", "Town can do multiple mistakes during the game and still easily win, while the mafia has to play perfectly and even then, it's not even sure they will be close to winning."

>BabyDragonTamer: "as a high elo player I can say that I have many opinions on this.", "I do believe that sometimes town seems to win more often than evils do, but that depends on the role lists."

>Saphron: "more high elo player input here since this subject interests me.", "Town is absolutely stronger than mafia."

So to sum it up, town is absolutely not op, town is pretty much op, it depends on role lists, and town is op.

High ELO /=/ Good grasp of balance

[orangeandblack5]

But it does mean, for better and for worse, they have a good grasp on how the game functions right now. Ignoring that would be just as foolish, and I for one welcome their opinions.

[WehrmachtSoldier]

I feel like the jailor changes are a bit overkill. Sometimes, killing town can even be good to confirm things. I am fine with jailor not being able to jail the same person twice, but this, plus the dying if you execute a townie, plus the overall mafia buffs, will make the jailor useless and not fun to play, when currently it is one of the most fun roles in the game. Losing your executions is punishing enough.

[HoiOimNobody]

IMHO, In ranked there should be a certain win ratio we have to achieve while making all of the roles fun, interesting, and unique. Upon all 4 off these critira being met the game is well balanced. In my eyes the win rates should be 50% for town, 40% for mafia, 10% NK, 35% NE.

First is a way to measure this, I know this is somewhat implemented in Ranked because elo loss/gain is based on your alignment but I think that win rate should be closely studied so we have a more accurate win rate. We could maybe even see common roles that were won with to see who is OP / UP.

Town's reasoning for their win rate is 50%, they should have the highest portion the other 50 is split among the maffia and NK,

Mafia 40% this number is what it is because of the NK, also they make up 4/15 of the game so it is a fair ratio as win rate whould not be bassedon ammount (Town should not have 10/15, maf should not have 4/15, and NK should not have 1/15)

NK: This win rate comes from the fact that there is only 1 but they still should have a decent chance of winning, otherwise you get to the point that the NK tries to give a mafia member the win like we have now in most games.

NE: 35% comes from the following: Exe would haev the highest at about 45%, then jest at about 40%, then witch at about 25%) Witches win rate is so low because they need to A: live; and B: have evils win. (Maybe witch buff I do not know so all NE have the same win rate I do not know)

This is my opinion about ranked, Any/Any is a whole different story which is a giant,walking, talking meme so who cares about it.

TLDR: We should have a strived for win rate among all alignments, we should keep track of common roles which lead to wining games, the rates whouyld be (IMHO) 50% for town, 40% for maffia, 10% for NK. NE should average at about 35-45%

[Brilliand]

IMHO, In ranked there should be a certain win ratio we have to achieve while making all of the roles fun, interesting, and unique. Upon all 4 off these critira being met the game is well balanced. In my eyes the win rates should be 50% for town, 40% for mafia, 10% NK, 35% NE.

I disagree that we should be striving to get the winrate "just right". It's more important that the wins and losses feel fair when they happen. Sometimes the playerbase will incidentally be better at once faction or another, and that's OK.

Very badly off winrates are evidence that's something's wrong, but a win ratio of 40%/50%/8%/60% (say) wouldn't be too bad.

I think the "optimal" winrate for NK is over 10%, though. 17% would make more sense to me (following a rule of "faction winrate is proportional to square root of player count").

NE: 35% comes from the following: Exe would haev the highest at about 45%, then jest at about 40%, then witch at about 25%) Witches win rate is so low because they need to A: live; and B: have evils win. (Maybe witch buff I do not know so all NE have the same win rate I do not know)

If we're talking about "ideal" balancing goals, I definitely think all NEs should have the same "ideal" winrate.

[alvac2012]

I feel like the jailor changes are a bit overkill. Sometimes, killing town can even be good to confirm things. I am fine with jailor not being able to jail the same person twice, but this, plus the dying if you execute a townie, plus the overall mafia buffs, will make the jailor useless and not fun to play, when currently it is one of the most fun roles in the game. Losing your executions is punishing enough.

yeah jailor having suicide guilt is bad, that's been agreed upon by like most of the people in this thread. same thing goes for vigilante

the only real change needed for jailor is for it to not be able to jail on consecutive nights to avoid massive utility in certain situations, and if you want to go down the road of making a Town Power sub-alignment, then nerfing Jailor by, say, removing one of it's executions to put it at a more similar utility as Mayor to avoid power incongruity would be a viable option, though that can also be achieved by buffing Mayor in some way

I do not mind not allowing jailor to jail consecutively, but can that be 2 nights instead of 1? That way, if jailor jails someone once and doesn't exe them because there's not enough evidence at the time, they could still jail and exe them the next night if there's enough evidence (or RT's fill up). This way, jailor isn't handicapped from his inability to jail 2 nights in a row. If it's more than 2, then yeah. That should not be allowed since that means that town is simply stalling out mafia. However, 2 will be able to keep jailor utility while preventing the stall out scenario.

[Brilliand]

I do not mind not allowing jailor to jail consecutively, but can that be 2 nights instead of 1? That way, if jailor jails someone once and doesn't exe them because there's not enough evidence at the time, they could still jail and exe them the next night if there's enough evidence (or RT's fill up). This way, jailor isn't handicapped from his inability to jail 2 nights in a row. If it's more than 2, then yeah. That should not be allowed since that means that town is simply stalling out mafia. However, 2 will be able to keep jailor utility while preventing the stall out scenario.

We don't need to keep the full Jailor utility. This is meant as a Town nerf, not just a way to prevent abuse.

[BasicFourLife]

By being able to confirm evils that Sheriff can't (Witch, WW on odd nights, Arso, GF, PB, Coven with the Necronomicon, Pirate, etc.)

and thats a bad thing, all roles should have equal immunity to TIs. so if GF is immune to sheriff, it should be immune to every other TI in the game at least in some way. its called equality

[BasicFourLife]

heres an idea that i want all of u to play with it, because of further equality

instead of doc being unable to heal them when reveal, make it so each Town Prot role can only visit them once and cannot visit them anymore, action would fail if Witch or Trans made them visit the revealed Mayor more than once. THis would lower the gap between BG and Doc, while making it fairer for everyone since in some games town gets a doc and evils get a freebie and some games they get a BG so they can still get full utility

go ahead, play with the idea in your mind

[Chemist1422]

I think doc/BG should be able to target mayor but TPs in general should just be non-consecutive (can't target the same player twice in a row)