Balance Discussions Part 2

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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby MysticMismagius » Mon May 04, 2020 12:10 pm

Achilles wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Then you should be advocating for fixing the ELO system so that people of vastly different skill are not matched together so often, not for leaving everything as is because one broken mess "balances out" another broken mess.
By fixing you mean longer queue times, especially for players at higher ELOs. That is the only way to "fix" the match making. There is no code change I can make that will create ranked players in your ELO range. I could put a cap on the maximum range of ELOs but then the players at the highest ELO may be waiting an hour in queue for a game. I doubt you want that change.

MysticMismagius wrote:How does the fact that a broken ELO system exists make my point moot? I literally said the ELO system should be fixed in my last post. If you wanna just accept it as a fact of life then be my guest, but that doesn't mean you should assume unbalanced skill amongst players when balancing the game. It's still a confounding variable that you can't balance for.
Explain what is broken and what the fix is. I don't think you understand the limitations on a match making system that doesnt have a huge pool of users to match make from.
What's broken is seeing Silver players in a game with Masters.
How to fix it, I don't really know. It wasn't the main focus of what I was trying to say to alvac2012 anyway (which is that he shouldn't be assuming a game with widely varied skill/ELO amongst players when claiming the game is balanced, or balancing the game around townies being bad.)
Last edited by MysticMismagius on Mon May 04, 2020 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby SwampRabbit » Mon May 04, 2020 12:58 pm

Achilles wrote:By fixing you mean longer queue times, especially for players at higher ELOs. That is the only way to "fix" the match making. There is no code change I can make that will create ranked players in your ELO range. I could put a cap on the maximum range of ELOs but then the players at the highest ELO may be waiting an hour in queue for a game. I doubt you want that change.


Don't be so quick to make this assumption. I have often commented on this forum how I would rather not get into games at all than to be queued with players 2000 elo lower than I am. I know for a fact that I have suggested giving players the option to select the max elo difference they would be willing to queue with. I do not know how much coding it would take to make that happen, and this is not the thread for that discussion, but keep the idea in the back of your mind, and do not dismiss it off hand. All of the high elo people I have discussed it with in the past like the idea. :)
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Achilles » Mon May 04, 2020 1:26 pm

SwampRabbit wrote:
Achilles wrote:By fixing you mean longer queue times, especially for players at higher ELOs. That is the only way to "fix" the match making. There is no code change I can make that will create ranked players in your ELO range. I could put a cap on the maximum range of ELOs but then the players at the highest ELO may be waiting an hour in queue for a game. I doubt you want that change.


Don't be so quick to make this assumption. I have often commented on this forum how I would rather not get into games at all than to be queued with players 2000 elo lower than I am. I know for a fact that I have suggested giving players the option to select the max elo difference they would be willing to queue with. I do not know how much coding it would take to make that happen, and this is not the thread for that discussion, but keep the idea in the back of your mind, and do not dismiss it off hand. All of the high elo people I have discussed it with in the past like the idea. :)


This is a fine idea but to be honest the amount of work involved in the coming patch is stacking up and I'm going to have to prioritize what tasks are going to make it in. The current plan is to launch Town Traitor + Web Unity at the same time and then start on the balance changes. Once balance changes are done we patch them and go into off season.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby woahah » Mon May 04, 2020 1:28 pm

FerretBandit wrote:
woahah wrote:honestly the second disguiser change is pretty solid, but if you do use that it has to be more than 1 use.
Give mafioso more than one ninja, because trying to get rid of jailor meta isn't worth keeping mafioso useless.

FerretBandit wrote:You still need to do something about NK. Here's an idea: Anyone who visits an NK has their name and role given to the NK. That makes claiming easier.

The new proposed Disguiser change is awful, keep the old proposed change: let them select from a list of roles to disguise as.

Give Forger infinite forgeries.

giving forger infinite forgeries just destroys wills. Wills arent the best thing in the first place, but this is just overpowered.


Giving Forger infinite forgeries would not be OP at all, it just looks that way on paper.

In reality, people in Ranked are posting their wills CONSTANTLY, so forgeries tend to have very little use.

Right now, Forger is pretty much just a Janitor who can't hide roles, since Ranked players will be able to tell a will is forged when it contradicts what the player had posted earlier. Giving it infinite forgeries would not be OP -- Forger still has to risk visiting the target AND will still turn into Mafioso eventually.

so basically what you are saying is it wont change anything
anyways, ranked players arent the only part of the community, and even then when forger is played right it can get by that. Forger needs a completely different overhaul if it wants to be fixed.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby techyleo » Mon May 04, 2020 2:42 pm

Any ETA on Town Traitor/Unity Web?
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Achilles » Mon May 04, 2020 3:34 pm

techyleo wrote:Any ETA on Town Traitor/Unity Web?


Might be opening up private beta testing this week
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby JahMakin » Mon May 04, 2020 3:42 pm

FerretBandit wrote:
woahah wrote:honestly the second disguiser change is pretty solid, but if you do use that it has to be more than 1 use.
Give mafioso more than one ninja, because trying to get rid of jailor meta isn't worth keeping mafioso useless.

FerretBandit wrote:You still need to do something about NK. Here's an idea: Anyone who visits an NK has their name and role given to the NK. That makes claiming easier.

The new proposed Disguiser change is awful, keep the old proposed change: let them select from a list of roles to disguise as.

Give Forger infinite forgeries.

giving forger infinite forgeries just destroys wills. Wills arent the best thing in the first place, but this is just overpowered.


Giving Forger infinite forgeries would not be OP at all, it just looks that way on paper.

In reality, people in Ranked are posting their wills CONSTANTLY, so forgeries tend to have very little use.

Right now, Forger is pretty much just a Janitor who can't hide roles, since Ranked players will be able to tell a will is forged when it contradicts what the player had posted earlier. Giving it infinite forgeries would not be OP -- Forger still has to risk visiting the target AND will still turn into Mafioso eventually.


Some wills don't necessitate being explicitly posted. The idea of having a finite amount of forgeries gives value to them.

People in ranked *are not* posting their wills "constantly". That's a myth.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby alvac2012 » Mon May 04, 2020 4:11 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:
Achilles wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Then you should be advocating for fixing the ELO system so that people of vastly different skill are not matched together so often, not for leaving everything as is because one broken mess "balances out" another broken mess.
By fixing you mean longer queue times, especially for players at higher ELOs. That is the only way to "fix" the match making. There is no code change I can make that will create ranked players in your ELO range. I could put a cap on the maximum range of ELOs but then the players at the highest ELO may be waiting an hour in queue for a game. I doubt you want that change.

MysticMismagius wrote:How does the fact that a broken ELO system exists make my point moot? I literally said the ELO system should be fixed in my last post. If you wanna just accept it as a fact of life then be my guest, but that doesn't mean you should assume unbalanced skill amongst players when balancing the game. It's still a confounding variable that you can't balance for.
Explain what is broken and what the fix is. I don't think you understand the limitations on a match making system that doesnt have a huge pool of users to match make from.
What's broken is seeing Silver players in a game with Masters.
How to fix it, I don't really know. It wasn't the main focus of what I was trying to say to alvac2012 anyway (which is that he shouldn't be assuming a game with widely varied skill/ELO amongst players when claiming the game is balanced, or balancing the game around townies being bad.)


On the same vein, you cannot balance the game knowing that people who roll evil more often than not just give up. I said that your point is moot because your opinions are based around the fact that town and evils will have similar skill levels and have similar drives to win when in reality, they do not. And unless they do that youtuber tournament again, we will likely never see a match where evils and town have same skill level. Also, that tournament wasn't even using the actual ranked rolelist.

Additionally, I never claimed the game was balanced. You are oversimplifying my argument. My argument has been that buffs to framer and disguiser are great. I can live with the mafioso buff although I'd much rather they be able to protect themselves for 1 night. Jailor does not need nerf, but I would not complain if they added the caveat that jailor cannot jail the same person 2 nights consecutively. Remove retri.

I am NOT in favor of making jailor execute himself, allowing vigi to live after shooting a townie, not allowing jailor to rejail same person.

Occasionally, I get a jailor who isn't afraid to make plays, is loud and outspoken, who leads town. Usually, I get jailors who play passively, refuse to execute even the safest of executes, and who cost the game for town because they are too afraid to lose executes. So no. I do not think that jailor needs a nerf because the person who gets jailor is usually inept. I do not know if that's just me though.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby woahah » Mon May 04, 2020 4:28 pm

alvac2012 wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:
Achilles wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Then you should be advocating for fixing the ELO system so that people of vastly different skill are not matched together so often, not for leaving everything as is because one broken mess "balances out" another broken mess.
By fixing you mean longer queue times, especially for players at higher ELOs. That is the only way to "fix" the match making. There is no code change I can make that will create ranked players in your ELO range. I could put a cap on the maximum range of ELOs but then the players at the highest ELO may be waiting an hour in queue for a game. I doubt you want that change.

MysticMismagius wrote:How does the fact that a broken ELO system exists make my point moot? I literally said the ELO system should be fixed in my last post. If you wanna just accept it as a fact of life then be my guest, but that doesn't mean you should assume unbalanced skill amongst players when balancing the game. It's still a confounding variable that you can't balance for.
Explain what is broken and what the fix is. I don't think you understand the limitations on a match making system that doesnt have a huge pool of users to match make from.
What's broken is seeing Silver players in a game with Masters.
How to fix it, I don't really know. It wasn't the main focus of what I was trying to say to alvac2012 anyway (which is that he shouldn't be assuming a game with widely varied skill/ELO amongst players when claiming the game is balanced, or balancing the game around townies being bad.)


On the same vein, you cannot balance the game knowing that people who roll evil more often than not just give up. I said that your point is moot because your opinions are based around the fact that town and evils will have similar skill levels and have similar drives to win when in reality, they do not. And unless they do that youtuber tournament again, we will likely never see a match where evils and town have same skill level. Also, that tournament wasn't even using the actual ranked rolelist.

Additionally, I never claimed the game was balanced. You are oversimplifying my argument. My argument has been that buffs to framer and disguiser are great. I can live with the mafioso buff although I'd much rather they be able to protect themselves for 1 night. Jailor does not need nerf, but I would not complain if they added the caveat that jailor cannot jail the same person 2 nights consecutively. Remove retri.

I am NOT in favor of making jailor execute himself, allowing vigi to live after shooting a townie, not allowing jailor to rejail same person.

Occasionally, I get a jailor who isn't afraid to make plays, is loud and outspoken, who leads town. Usually, I get jailors who play passively, refuse to execute even the safest of executes, and who cost the game for town because they are too afraid to lose executes. So no. I do not think that jailor needs a nerf because the person who gets jailor is usually inept. I do not know if that's just me though.

People give up as mafia because mafia is underpowered tho
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby CrimsonKatana » Mon May 04, 2020 4:30 pm

woahah wrote:
alvac2012 wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:
Achilles wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Then you should be advocating for fixing the ELO system so that people of vastly different skill are not matched together so often, not for leaving everything as is because one broken mess "balances out" another broken mess.
By fixing you mean longer queue times, especially for players at higher ELOs. That is the only way to "fix" the match making. There is no code change I can make that will create ranked players in your ELO range. I could put a cap on the maximum range of ELOs but then the players at the highest ELO may be waiting an hour in queue for a game. I doubt you want that change.

MysticMismagius wrote:How does the fact that a broken ELO system exists make my point moot? I literally said the ELO system should be fixed in my last post. If you wanna just accept it as a fact of life then be my guest, but that doesn't mean you should assume unbalanced skill amongst players when balancing the game. It's still a confounding variable that you can't balance for.
Explain what is broken and what the fix is. I don't think you understand the limitations on a match making system that doesnt have a huge pool of users to match make from.
What's broken is seeing Silver players in a game with Masters.
How to fix it, I don't really know. It wasn't the main focus of what I was trying to say to alvac2012 anyway (which is that he shouldn't be assuming a game with widely varied skill/ELO amongst players when claiming the game is balanced, or balancing the game around townies being bad.)


On the same vein, you cannot balance the game knowing that people who roll evil more often than not just give up. I said that your point is moot because your opinions are based around the fact that town and evils will have similar skill levels and have similar drives to win when in reality, they do not. And unless they do that youtuber tournament again, we will likely never see a match where evils and town have same skill level. Also, that tournament wasn't even using the actual ranked rolelist.

Additionally, I never claimed the game was balanced. You are oversimplifying my argument. My argument has been that buffs to framer and disguiser are great. I can live with the mafioso buff although I'd much rather they be able to protect themselves for 1 night. Jailor does not need nerf, but I would not complain if they added the caveat that jailor cannot jail the same person 2 nights consecutively. Remove retri.

I am NOT in favor of making jailor execute himself, allowing vigi to live after shooting a townie, not allowing jailor to rejail same person.

Occasionally, I get a jailor who isn't afraid to make plays, is loud and outspoken, who leads town. Usually, I get jailors who play passively, refuse to execute even the safest of executes, and who cost the game for town because they are too afraid to lose executes. So no. I do not think that jailor needs a nerf because the person who gets jailor is usually inept. I do not know if that's just me though.

People give up as mafia because mafia is underpowered tho


That's on them have no clue why you think pointing that out would be a valid argument at all
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby MysticMismagius » Mon May 04, 2020 4:36 pm

CrimsonKatana wrote:
woahah wrote:
alvac2012 wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:
Achilles wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Then you should be advocating for fixing the ELO system so that people of vastly different skill are not matched together so often, not for leaving everything as is because one broken mess "balances out" another broken mess.
By fixing you mean longer queue times, especially for players at higher ELOs. That is the only way to "fix" the match making. There is no code change I can make that will create ranked players in your ELO range. I could put a cap on the maximum range of ELOs but then the players at the highest ELO may be waiting an hour in queue for a game. I doubt you want that change.

MysticMismagius wrote:How does the fact that a broken ELO system exists make my point moot? I literally said the ELO system should be fixed in my last post. If you wanna just accept it as a fact of life then be my guest, but that doesn't mean you should assume unbalanced skill amongst players when balancing the game. It's still a confounding variable that you can't balance for.
Explain what is broken and what the fix is. I don't think you understand the limitations on a match making system that doesnt have a huge pool of users to match make from.
What's broken is seeing Silver players in a game with Masters.
How to fix it, I don't really know. It wasn't the main focus of what I was trying to say to alvac2012 anyway (which is that he shouldn't be assuming a game with widely varied skill/ELO amongst players when claiming the game is balanced, or balancing the game around townies being bad.)
On the same vein, you cannot balance the game knowing that people who roll evil more often than not just give up. I said that your point is moot because your opinions are based around the fact that town and evils will have similar skill levels and have similar drives to win when in reality, they do not. And unless they do that youtuber tournament again, we will likely never see a match where evils and town have same skill level. Also, that tournament wasn't even using the actual ranked rolelist.

Additionally, I never claimed the game was balanced. You are oversimplifying my argument. My argument has been that buffs to framer and disguiser are great. I can live with the mafioso buff although I'd much rather they be able to protect themselves for 1 night. Jailor does not need nerf, but I would not complain if they added the caveat that jailor cannot jail the same person 2 nights consecutively. Remove retri.

I am NOT in favor of making jailor execute himself, allowing vigi to live after shooting a townie, not allowing jailor to rejail same person.

Occasionally, I get a jailor who isn't afraid to make plays, is loud and outspoken, who leads town. Usually, I get jailors who play passively, refuse to execute even the safest of executes, and who cost the game for town because they are too afraid to lose executes. So no. I do not think that jailor needs a nerf because the person who gets jailor is usually inept. I do not know if that's just me though.

People give up as mafia because mafia is underpowered tho
That's on them have no clue why you think pointing that out would be a valid argument at all
Because alvac's trying to balance around people leaving as evil (and otherwise being generally bad)
which is not only bad design but impossible
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby woahah » Mon May 04, 2020 5:12 pm

CrimsonKatana wrote:
woahah wrote:
alvac2012 wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:
Achilles wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Then you should be advocating for fixing the ELO system so that people of vastly different skill are not matched together so often, not for leaving everything as is because one broken mess "balances out" another broken mess.
By fixing you mean longer queue times, especially for players at higher ELOs. That is the only way to "fix" the match making. There is no code change I can make that will create ranked players in your ELO range. I could put a cap on the maximum range of ELOs but then the players at the highest ELO may be waiting an hour in queue for a game. I doubt you want that change.

MysticMismagius wrote:How does the fact that a broken ELO system exists make my point moot? I literally said the ELO system should be fixed in my last post. If you wanna just accept it as a fact of life then be my guest, but that doesn't mean you should assume unbalanced skill amongst players when balancing the game. It's still a confounding variable that you can't balance for.
Explain what is broken and what the fix is. I don't think you understand the limitations on a match making system that doesnt have a huge pool of users to match make from.
What's broken is seeing Silver players in a game with Masters.
How to fix it, I don't really know. It wasn't the main focus of what I was trying to say to alvac2012 anyway (which is that he shouldn't be assuming a game with widely varied skill/ELO amongst players when claiming the game is balanced, or balancing the game around townies being bad.)


On the same vein, you cannot balance the game knowing that people who roll evil more often than not just give up. I said that your point is moot because your opinions are based around the fact that town and evils will have similar skill levels and have similar drives to win when in reality, they do not. And unless they do that youtuber tournament again, we will likely never see a match where evils and town have same skill level. Also, that tournament wasn't even using the actual ranked rolelist.

Additionally, I never claimed the game was balanced. You are oversimplifying my argument. My argument has been that buffs to framer and disguiser are great. I can live with the mafioso buff although I'd much rather they be able to protect themselves for 1 night. Jailor does not need nerf, but I would not complain if they added the caveat that jailor cannot jail the same person 2 nights consecutively. Remove retri.

I am NOT in favor of making jailor execute himself, allowing vigi to live after shooting a townie, not allowing jailor to rejail same person.

Occasionally, I get a jailor who isn't afraid to make plays, is loud and outspoken, who leads town. Usually, I get jailors who play passively, refuse to execute even the safest of executes, and who cost the game for town because they are too afraid to lose executes. So no. I do not think that jailor needs a nerf because the person who gets jailor is usually inept. I do not know if that's just me though.

People give up as mafia because mafia is underpowered tho


That's on them have no clue why you think pointing that out would be a valid argument at all

"They said something which makes no sense but you shouldnt point it out"
Ok buddy
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby orangeandblack5 » Mon May 04, 2020 6:32 pm

Sorry for being so late to the party, but I've been busy finishing up my semester and moving back home, so couldn't immediately respond.

First off, I will point to my ToS 3.0 post as what I feel to be the best possible massive update that could help draw in players that may not have been around for a while by bringing in some exciting new roles and major reworks. As such, I'll probably spend the rest of this analysis focusing on the idea of a smaller balance patch - although I strongly believe that a larger "3.0" patch is the best way to reignite interest going forward, from the sound of things the devs are looking to patch in only some of the most necessary changes alongside Town Traitor and the web Unity port, so I'll keep things relatively small and simple.

I am unfortunately not yet finished with my move, so I haven't really been able to read over all of the posts on this thread and the prior one, but I am more than happy to discuss any points people bring up!

For the changes suggested in the OP:

Spoiler: Mafioso
First off, Astral and Ninja are not synonyms, and the difference is actually very key! I am not a huge fan of this (although I wouldn't cry if it were implemented), mainly because the difference between how this interacts with a Doctor and a Bodyguard is so large as to make attacking a Jailor N1 with this potentially very harmful. If a Lookout sees a Doctor heal the Jailor N1, that's three town confirmed in one go, so it's probably best for the Mafia to not even take that coin flip. I just think there are better ways to deal with this meta, mainly Osservatore.

Framer
I've supported being able to Tailor your fellow Mafia members in the past, but I have fallen pretty far out of favor with this idea over the past few years, so a few reasons. The second-most-important one is that investigatives should be rewarded for choosing good targets, and the Mafia should be rewarded for killing people who might investigate them. This change means you can never really trust an innocent result. The primary reason that this should not be the fix we go with, however, is that it amplifies the swing already inherent to Framer. Consider a game that rolls Lookout/Lookout, and compare it to a game that rolls Sheriff/Sheriff. In the latter game, the Framer has a decently high chance of framing somebody already, and if it can tailor its teammate it's very likely to have a large impact on the game! However, when Lookout/Lookout rolls, the Framer is literally negative utility, as it will never get a frame off. Although I can see the idea that this is now a further (necessary) nerf to Spy being sold as a positive, I fear that we will reach the point where Spy is too weak and considered not fun enough to cause issues with players who roll it. All in all, I much prefer focusing on making Framer more reliable, regardless of which Town Investigatives roll, to making it stronger IF the roles it can affect roll. The easiest way to do this is to make it so people who are framed are seen to be visiting the Mafia kill target by Lookouts and Trackers, and so their real visit target is seen as being visited by the Mafia to the Spy.

Jailor
Non-consecutive Jailor is great, suicide Jailor is just... no thank you. Suicide guilt is a super swingy mechanic that I strongly feel should be removed from the Vigilante, so to see it being suggested for Jailor is honestly a bit frightening. Much better to reduce executes to 2 or even 1 than to make it so a misstep on an execute kills TWO town, including the Jailor, in one go. Personally, I'd go non-consecutive, 2 executes, and downgrade its protection to Basic, nerfing it a bit in every area rather than gimping it if and only if it executes a Town.

Disguiser
I think giving this a Spy-like bug for some information gathering and letting it maintain a Disguise rather than losing it is the best simple change here. The proposed change really only affects games with Investigators, while simply changing how it works a bit allows it to fake-claim Spy perfectly and also allows it to have an easier time against every TI role, not just Investigator.


As for other changes along these lines I think should be considered:

Spoiler: Osservatore
Basically the best defense against the TP/LO meta. It both makes LO claims untrustworthy, and also makes finding the Town Protectives extremely easy for the Mafia, which will likely kill the Jailor meta outright. Kinda hard to keep the Jailor alive when the TPs are all dead.

Blackmailer
The main issue the Blackmailer has is that using its ability reveals it exists and makes its passive whisper-reading useless by virtue of players knowing their whispers are 100% open to the Mafia. As counter-intuitive as it may seem, this is best fixed by removing the Blackmailer's ability to read whispers. In return, it should be buffed such that blackmailed targets can't change their vote once placed for eight seconds, and they shouldn't even be able to say "I am blackmailed." when voted to the stand. This allows the Blackmailer to more aggressively pursue mislynches without their target vote-spamming to indicate they have been blackmailed.

Forger
It should inherit the Blackmailer's ability to read whispers, helping it to construct believable fake wills. It should also now have its fake wills carry over into the day, allowing the Forger to push mislynches onto a "Disguiser" or erase critical will information more flexibly than a Janitor can. Lastly, it should be able to forge four fake wills rather than three, giving it more uses than a current Janitor if it does decide to go for purely wiping information from wills.

Retributionist
I don't think Retributionist is too strong overall - I think it is too strong in the context of spawning into a game randomly. Removing it from Ranked does indeed seem like the best option.

Mayor
The Mayor is a god with a Bodyguard and extremely weak with a Doctor. In general, it shouldn't be this reliant on what the TP slot rolls, so I'd give it back its ability to be healed, and its ability to whisper (which was never the real issue anyways), and then take it out of Ranked. As long as it is made so there can be either a Jailor, a Retributionist, or a Mayor in any given game, never more than one, it's probably fine to leave it there - after all, you're trading a Jailor and a Retributionist for its existence, and the current Jailor meta is just the old Mayor meta, so if we successfully kill the Jailor meta, the Mayor meta won't return (as I'm sure some will claim).

Serial Killer
Just make it so that when the Serial Killer attacks a roleblocker, the roleblocker's death message will now be "You were stabbed by a Serial Killer!" instead of "You were stabbed by the Serial Killer you roleblocked/jailed!" In a game with the Medium, there is zero reason to 100% confirm that.

Janitor
2 cleans down from 3, bring it more in line with the others, but it shouldn't lose a usage unless the clean is successful

Bodyguard
Letting it be healed when it is sacrificed protecting somebody enables TP chains that help to propogate not only the Jailor meta, but also allow a Doc/BG combo that really has no reason to exist. If it loses its life protecting someone, it should die.


And that's pretty much it for the very simplest version of changes I'd suggest. I still strongly support adding Tracker/Hypnotist to the base game for the easiest "new content" you can use to get old players to come try them out, either reworking Vampire Hunter into a new Town Protective or just adding it on its own, completely overhauling Neutral Evil as a category, reworking Spy, reworking Werewolf, buffing Arsonist, and someday adding Mafia Tactical Kills - but that can all wait, these small tweaks are needed sooner rather than later.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby orangeandblack5 » Mon May 04, 2020 6:38 pm

For reference, the Osservatore:

Spoiler: Osservatore

Alignment: Mafia Support

Abilities: Watch one person at night to see who visits them or Track one person to see who they visit.

Attributes:
-If there are no kill capable Mafia roles left you will become a Mafioso.
-You can talk with the other Mafia at night.

Special Attributes: Ignores Detection Immunity

Goal: Kill anyone that will not submit to the Mafia.

Win Conditions:
Wins with the Mafia
Wins with Witches
Wins with Survivors
Must kill the Town
Must kill Serial Killers
Must kill Arsonists
Must kill Werewolves
Must kill Vampires

Investigative Results:
Sheriff: Your target is a member of the Mafia.
Investigator: Your target has an extremely keen eye for detail. They must be a Lookout, Osservatore, or a Witch.
Consigliere: Your target is a master at stalking people. They must be an Osservatore.


If this single role, which shouldn't be hard to program as it is a Lookout/Tracker combo, doesn't outright kill the Jailor meta, it will at least make it risky enough as to be squarely bad for the town overall (which it arguably already may be at higher elo).
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby BlastingOff » Tue May 05, 2020 3:11 am

Mafioso - seems fine to try it out, I think trying it out is the best way to see if it works

Jailor - remove suicide. I think Jailor losing his executions and being unable to jail twice in a row (in general) is a good nerf for now.

Framer - I assume the idea of Framer hiding other Mafia member's visits to LO and etc. is still applicable here. If yes, I don't mind trying it out, but I don't have a strong opinion here

Disguiser - former is better, in my opinion. The second one has to erase the will for it to make sense and it will be somewhat easy to determine if someone has been tampered with if they were active. The first one seems to make Disguiser more useful as alive (the latter makes it automatcally passive once it's successful)

I want to ask if the devs have considered "Tactical Mafia" (I know you said you won't include everything in the post, that's why I am asking) as a buff for Mafia. As to what it is (NOTE: I do not claim any credits to it, I don't know who actually created it):

- Instead of Mafioso / Godfather doing the killing, any member of the Mafia can perform the killing, sacrificing their night ability for the night.
- Mafioso is reworked as it no longer holds any value, as its role is performed by anyone (maybe rework it to counter Jailor meta?)
- Godfather also gets a slight buff, as it loses one of its roles. One I have seen is them getting any feedback his comrades get.

The idea of Tactical Mafia is to prevent Escort / Jailor continuously roleblocking Mafioso / Godfather when one of them is dead. It is a slight nerf to Escort, but if Escort roleblocks the one that is gonna do the killing, they still block the killing for the night, so good plays from Escort would still wield a reward, just that it's no longer automatic win for the Escort (and Jailor no longer gets to autowin for the Town either, so one more nerf).
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby woahah » Tue May 05, 2020 4:41 am

BlastingOff wrote:Mafioso - seems fine to try it out, I think trying it out is the best way to see if it works

Jailor - remove suicide. I think Jailor losing his executions and being unable to jail twice in a row (in general) is a good nerf for now.

Framer - I assume the idea of Framer hiding other Mafia member's visits to LO and etc. is still applicable here. If yes, I don't mind trying it out, but I don't have a strong opinion here

Disguiser - former is better, in my opinion. The second one has to erase the will for it to make sense and it will be somewhat easy to determine if someone has been tampered with if they were active. The first one seems to make Disguiser more useful as alive (the latter makes it automatcally passive once it's successful)

I want to ask if the devs have considered "Tactical Mafia" (I know you said you won't include everything in the post, that's why I am asking) as a buff for Mafia. As to what it is (NOTE: I do not claim any credits to it, I don't know who actually created it):

- Instead of Mafioso / Godfather doing the killing, any member of the Mafia can perform the killing, sacrificing their night ability for the night.
- Mafioso is reworked as it no longer holds any value, as its role is performed by anyone (maybe rework it to counter Jailor meta?)
- Godfather also gets a slight buff, as it loses one of its roles. One I have seen is them getting any feedback his comrades get.

The idea of Tactical Mafia is to prevent Escort / Jailor continuously roleblocking Mafioso / Godfather when one of them is dead. It is a slight nerf to Escort, but if Escort roleblocks the one that is gonna do the killing, they still block the killing for the night, so good plays from Escort would still wield a reward, just that it's no longer automatic win for the Escort (and Jailor no longer gets to autowin for the Town either, so one more nerf).

honestly this is a really good post, but that is just giving framer the same ability as mafioso
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby BlastingOff » Tue May 05, 2020 4:49 am

woahah wrote:
BlastingOff wrote:Mafioso - seems fine to try it out, I think trying it out is the best way to see if it works

Jailor - remove suicide. I think Jailor losing his executions and being unable to jail twice in a row (in general) is a good nerf for now.

Framer - I assume the idea of Framer hiding other Mafia member's visits to LO and etc. is still applicable here. If yes, I don't mind trying it out, but I don't have a strong opinion here

Disguiser - former is better, in my opinion. The second one has to erase the will for it to make sense and it will be somewhat easy to determine if someone has been tampered with if they were active. The first one seems to make Disguiser more useful as alive (the latter makes it automatcally passive once it's successful)

I want to ask if the devs have considered "Tactical Mafia" (I know you said you won't include everything in the post, that's why I am asking) as a buff for Mafia. As to what it is (NOTE: I do not claim any credits to it, I don't know who actually created it):

- Instead of Mafioso / Godfather doing the killing, any member of the Mafia can perform the killing, sacrificing their night ability for the night.
- Mafioso is reworked as it no longer holds any value, as its role is performed by anyone (maybe rework it to counter Jailor meta?)
- Godfather also gets a slight buff, as it loses one of its roles. One I have seen is them getting any feedback his comrades get.

The idea of Tactical Mafia is to prevent Escort / Jailor continuously roleblocking Mafioso / Godfather when one of them is dead. It is a slight nerf to Escort, but if Escort roleblocks the one that is gonna do the killing, they still block the killing for the night, so good plays from Escort would still wield a reward, just that it's no longer automatic win for the Escort (and Jailor no longer gets to autowin for the Town either, so one more nerf).

honestly this is a really good post, but that is just giving framer the same ability as mafioso


well, as I said, I don't have a strong opinion on Framer. I put the Framer idea with the assumption that Tactical Mafia is put in action, because, honestly, I think putting Tactical Mafia might give us more room to improve Mafia against Jailor meta. But I guess we first need to hear what Achilles has to say about Tactical Mafia.

e: to make it clear, TM would allow us to rework Mafioso to something that helps further against Jailor meta.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby BS4125 » Tue May 05, 2020 6:38 am

BigSlug wrote:I noticed you suggested Retri being similar to Necromancer, Achilles. I personally love that idea and here's my take on it with as far as I know most if not every interaction taken into account:
Retributionist:
Day Ability: Reanimate - At day, select a town-aligned player in the graveyard to reanimate them for the night. Being Jailed or Pirated takes priority. This will remove them from dead chat for the night, and they will be able to use their night ability. Retributionist can also select targets for the town player, but they act more as suggestions, as any selection the Reanimated player takes will override it. Retributionist will not visit anyone, and the reanimated visit is astral. Jailor, Medium, Mayor, Retributionists and Veterans cannot be reanimated, on top of all non-town aligned roles. Reanimating is once per corpse. For TIs and other roles that recieve feedback, Retributionist will also recieve that feedback so he can get spy information/ect. Retributionist cannot speak to the dead player and vice versa.
INTERACTIONS OF INTEREST:
-Retributionist and Necromancer have no conflicting usage, however if retributionist and necromancer choose the same corpse on the same night Necromancers ability will fail for that night. A necromancer who uses a ghoul does not stop Retributionist from reanimating their corpse a seperate night, and vice versa.
-Psychic: Reanimating a Psychic would get that specific nights vision rather then leaving off where the Psychic died, although there's no target to choose when reanimating a Psychic.
-Vigilante: Retri will not die of guilt if the Vigilante shoots a town.
-Bodyguard: Bodyguard will still attack an attacker but obviously cannot die, Retri will not die in the BGs stead.
-Trapper: Trap is built instantly, and removes the trappers old trap. Trapper can choose to remove his old trap without placing it elsewhere.
-Transporter: Let's you select two targets for obvious reasons.
-Disguiser: Selecting a Disguiser will act exactly like the townie you believed it to be, so Transporter will have two targets. Regardless of what happens and who is selected by the Disguiser/Retri nothing will happen at the end of the night.

Retributionist would probably remain a unique role.

What this would do for the game:
-Retributionist would be more interesting to play, serving as a hybrid of TI/TP/TK/TS, whatever role is dead. There's plenty of strategy on when to reanimate a player.
-Medium is now not a weaker retri as retri cannot confirm mediums existence and info from the dead but mediums can confirm retri claims, other mediums, info, cleans, ect.
-There's still a decent amount of player interaction as a dead townie between talking to mediums and getting a 1-time chance to use your night ability on someone.

This is a great idea, though i’d probably prefer this being given to the Medium as right now Med is definitely on the weak side, plus if it can speak to it’s target like Achillies suggested then it’s basically a well-rounded Mec

I agree that Ret’s ok as a role if it’s not included in ranked

Spoiler:
lemonader666 wrote:
Seththeking wrote:
BS4125 wrote:Please post relevant posts to the topic at hand and not digress. Also please explain your opinions otherwise your contribution is sub-zero.


Oooooooo Mister Power over here!

And would you look at that, I was on the forums longer then you.

But overall the role for this topic needs work, I mean it's so bad people would rather
get off topic lol.

solola is a mod you retard
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby alvac2012 » Tue May 05, 2020 7:09 am

Flake wrote:
alvac2012 wrote:I am NOT in favor of making jailor execute himself, allowing vigi to live after shooting a townie, not allowing jailor to rejail same person.

how can you simultaneously be not in favor of making jailor kill himself for executing wrong and be in favor of making vigilante suicide guilt for shooting wrong

suicide guilt shouldn't be existent in either case because it punishes inaccurate play far too harshly, creating significant swing that doesn't need to be there at all

one of the main issues of killing town roles in general is swing even without things like suicide guilt; killing someone of your own alignment is already punishment enough for being wrong, especially if they're also going to lose their other shots/executes


Because the suicide balances out witch killing vigi. If a witch finds vigi and vigi can't suicide, witch gets 3 shots to kill townies. If they remove witch from the role list then fine, vigi gets 3 shots and won't suicide, but there's witch in the game
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby alvac2012 » Tue May 05, 2020 7:12 am

MysticMismagius wrote:
CrimsonKatana wrote:
woahah wrote:
alvac2012 wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:
Achilles wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Then you should be advocating for fixing the ELO system so that people of vastly different skill are not matched together so often, not for leaving everything as is because one broken mess "balances out" another broken mess.
By fixing you mean longer queue times, especially for players at higher ELOs. That is the only way to "fix" the match making. There is no code change I can make that will create ranked players in your ELO range. I could put a cap on the maximum range of ELOs but then the players at the highest ELO may be waiting an hour in queue for a game. I doubt you want that change.

MysticMismagius wrote:How does the fact that a broken ELO system exists make my point moot? I literally said the ELO system should be fixed in my last post. If you wanna just accept it as a fact of life then be my guest, but that doesn't mean you should assume unbalanced skill amongst players when balancing the game. It's still a confounding variable that you can't balance for.
Explain what is broken and what the fix is. I don't think you understand the limitations on a match making system that doesnt have a huge pool of users to match make from.
What's broken is seeing Silver players in a game with Masters.
How to fix it, I don't really know. It wasn't the main focus of what I was trying to say to alvac2012 anyway (which is that he shouldn't be assuming a game with widely varied skill/ELO amongst players when claiming the game is balanced, or balancing the game around townies being bad.)
On the same vein, you cannot balance the game knowing that people who roll evil more often than not just give up. I said that your point is moot because your opinions are based around the fact that town and evils will have similar skill levels and have similar drives to win when in reality, they do not. And unless they do that youtuber tournament again, we will likely never see a match where evils and town have same skill level. Also, that tournament wasn't even using the actual ranked rolelist.

Additionally, I never claimed the game was balanced. You are oversimplifying my argument. My argument has been that buffs to framer and disguiser are great. I can live with the mafioso buff although I'd much rather they be able to protect themselves for 1 night. Jailor does not need nerf, but I would not complain if they added the caveat that jailor cannot jail the same person 2 nights consecutively. Remove retri.

I am NOT in favor of making jailor execute himself, allowing vigi to live after shooting a townie, not allowing jailor to rejail same person.

Occasionally, I get a jailor who isn't afraid to make plays, is loud and outspoken, who leads town. Usually, I get jailors who play passively, refuse to execute even the safest of executes, and who cost the game for town because they are too afraid to lose executes. So no. I do not think that jailor needs a nerf because the person who gets jailor is usually inept. I do not know if that's just me though.

People give up as mafia because mafia is underpowered tho
That's on them have no clue why you think pointing that out would be a valid argument at all
Because alvac's trying to balance around people leaving as evil (and otherwise being generally bad)
which is not only bad design but impossible


Um, no. I NEVER said that I was balancing the game around people leaving as evil. You're just putting words in my mouth. I agree that town has a better winrate than evils which is why I believe that evils should be buffed and retri should be removed. In no way have I ever argued to nerf town.

And your argument is to balance evils and town assuming they have similar skill levels, which NEVER happens because matchmaking doesn't account for ELO. Therefore, the mindset should be that there will be both good and bad players on both sides.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Poirot633 » Tue May 05, 2020 8:00 am

Here are my two cents. I hope you'll read my ideas (especially those about the NK roles), even though I'm not one of those self-centered high ELO players who think their opinion matters more than the majority of the player base. I really love the game and have been playing on and off for 5 years.

As a general feeling, Maf/NK is definitely harder to play than town, but that's how it's supposed to be, and as a result it should be more fun to play. In reality, it is not as fun at the moment because town can confirm too many roles too quickly, especially wth the TP/LO meta. As a result, a lot of players leave day 1 when they get an evil role, and it drastically lowers the winning chances of other evils, who will be more tempted to leave as well. A first step to prevent this from happening would be to punish in some way or the other players who leave the game day 1. I'm not talking about making those people actually banned (I'm aware of the reconnection system BMG is working on), but maybe add something which prevents from entering a lobby for 10 minutes after leaving a game while alive. It wouldn't be unfair to people who actually get disconnected, while salty leavers would have to wait 10 minutes before hoping to get a role they want.

Also, I think a good way to balance the game would be to buff the NK roles, and give mafia more ways to decieve town.

Werewolf : WW should be able to interrogate people just as a Sheriff on odd-numbered nights. Thematically I like the idea of the WW living a normal life, until the full moon comes in when he becomes a killing machine. It would help WW play the usual Sheriff card, by getting semi-confirmed to town if they manage to find a suspicious target, while also helping their chances late game by making them find mafia members to get rid of when mafia starts getting majority. Optional : make it so WW genuinely thinks he's a Sheriff from day 1 to day 2, until he realizes the monster he is !

Arsonist : - There should be no remaining trace of people who died because their house burned down, so we should not be able to determine the role and the last will of people who died of arsonist. It would work like when a janitor does his cleaning, but they would appear (Ashes) instead of (Cleaned). I've seen this change suggested in the previous thread and I absolutely love it. Thematically it makes perfect sense, and it would also buff Arso which is the weakest NK currently (slow killing, and strategy easily thrown off by the death of doused targets). It would also incentivize arsonists to scumread mafia more, as the confusion created by unclaimed roles helps them, but also mafia a lot.
- I've also seen people suggest that players visiting the person arsonist decides to douse the same night should get doused as well. I like that change too, as it would counter the TP/LO meta and help arso find maf members, but it would need testing to see if that's not too OP.

Serial Killer : SK is currently just like a godfather on his own. His only strength is that he's night immune. Thematically, I see this as the fact that SK is a cunning man (or woman) who anticipates attacks against him. That's why I could definitely see SK not getting killed by bodyguards protecting his target. Of course, to make this not OP, SK would only kill the bodyguard and not his initial target. This would counter the TP/LO meta as SK could try their luck against the person asking for TP/LO night 1. In the worst case (for SK), TP is a doc and no harm is done to said townie, and in the best case, SK gets rid of a TP.

As for mafia roles, here's what I think :

Mafioso : I personally don't think buffing mafioso would be productive, the role is fine as it is, I like the current dynamic with gf. The unstoppable attack was a terrible idea as it made NK even weaker, and I'm not too fan of the astral attack thematically. There are other ways to counter the TP/LO meta as suggested above and below.

Framer : Everyone agrees it needs a buff, as it is mostly just an additional maf vote at the moment. This role really should be here to mess with TI's. I really like the idea of having the ability (a limited number of times) to make a fellow maf member appear innocent to sheriff and choosing what appears to invests. To make this efficient, Framer visits shouldn't appear to spies. Maybe the framer could make the selected maf member not appear as a visitor to lookouts as well, but that wouldn't make much sense thematically and would be a bit too strong mid game IMO.

Disguiser :- Someone suggested that disguisers should be able to visit twice during a night. The first visit would make them disguise as their target (and should be seen by spies), as it currently is, but the second visit (invisible to spies, as the disguiser is now disguised) would allow the disguiser to make it look like their first target visited their second target. That would be very good against the TP/LO meta, as you could frame a townie in the eye of a lookout.
- Making disguisers revivable by retributionist is a nice touch also. Making the disguiser know the role he disguised as is too strong and makes Consigliere obsolete, so that shouldn't happen.
- Choosing what to disguise as in the current role list would make the role very fun to play, but it would make it so disguiser never visits anyone so this is a bit too strong IMO.

Forger : It definitely needs a buff. Someone suggested that the forger should have access to the will of his target as it was saved at the beginning of the night to help him do a convincing forge. I really like this idea, but the decision to forge a particular target should be final (otherwise the forger could read every will of every player and that would be insanely OP).

Janitor : They should be able to visit other mafia members ! If a vigi or a jailor is going to shoot/execute a mafia member and the janitor is sees it coming, he could add to the confusion by making the mafia role not reveal. I see a lot of situations in which this would cause confusion, at least for a day (as vigi/jailor would realize by the following night if they indeed executed a town member or not).

Blackmailer, consig and consort are fine as they are. If I could suggest a new role, it would be a mafia transporter. Mafia has consort which can mimick an escort and consig which can mimick an invest, why not a Swapper ? This would probably be too strong as is, so maybe it should only be possible to swap a maf member with a non-maf member (otherwise if TP is on 1, just swap 1 with 2 and send mafia killing on 2).

For town roles :

Jailor : I don't think nerfing jailor is the right move here, as there should be a strong town role leading town, and I find it fine as it is. If we get rid of the TP/LO meta, this is a perfectly fine role.

Retributionist : - This one definitely needs a nerf. I like the idea of making the revived target of the retri die if the retri dies. It would make it possible for mafia to get back the time lost by the revival, while making retri harder to confirm (screaming out loud "I'm retri, I revived X" would be a terrible idea). It can also counter the jailor TP/LO meta as retri becomes a very high value target to maf after a revival. Thematically, this can be explained by the magical bond formed between the retri and his target, which keeps the target alive.
- An alternative to this would be to make the reviving procedure take two nights instead of one, so that reviving a target wouldn't be as easy. Any roleblock, transportation or attack (even if healed) during one of those two nights would stop the procedure. As above, this would make the player want to stay hidden as long as possible, but the retri would also want to warn his fellow townies not to interfere with him at the same time, which would make the role more interesting to play than saying "jailor don't leave" and then clicking a button.
- Also, as said above, make it so a retri can revive a disguiser disguised as a townie at the time of his death.

There have been suggestions on changing the role list of ranked to make it impossible for town to have mayor + retri or too many TS. I don't think it's a good idea, because even though games with those roles are easier to win for town, I think everyone agress that a game with a janitor and a blackmailer becomes easier to win for maf. There should be random factors in the difficulty of a game for both sides. Changing the mafia roles to GF + Mafioso + Mafia Deception + Mafia Support may help mafia not to get stuck with 2 framers, 2 forgers or other bad combinations.

These were my ideas, I'll be happy to discuss with anyone about those.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Joacgroso » Tue May 05, 2020 8:27 am

I don't like the idea of vigis not dying from guilt, since it would hurt witches too much, making them unable to win by themselves.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Joacgroso » Tue May 05, 2020 9:28 am

How can a witch win by herself unless it's a 1 vs 1 with a vigilante?
I know witch wins are very rare, but they are still nice to see, and very rewarding when one pulls one off. Making them unable to win by themselves would make other gamemodes less funny.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby woahah » Tue May 05, 2020 9:30 am

i can see both vig dying from guilt and vig just losing all bullets being good. also it would buff witch, as im pretty sure even if a vig puts away their gun they can still shoot by being witched.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Joacgroso » Tue May 05, 2020 9:56 am

But in the 1 vs 1 vs 1 scenario you describe, if town doesn't lynch and witch makes the vigi kill a townie, then it will be a 1 vs 1 and witch will have no way of killing the vigi, so she will lose.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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