The start of balance discussions

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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby BipBopBoop25 » Fri May 01, 2020 11:49 am

I am actually fine with most of the changes suggested, but additional changes need to be made to NK since they are even harder to win with than mafia. Framer should make their mafia members be replaced with a random name to any lookouts and doing a similar thing with trackers might be necessary. Forger should have an option where they can enter their targets role into the forgery by pressing a button. They shouldn't know what it is but showing it to them like *role* and allowing them to add it might make forger useful without a consig or beer.
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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby CrimsonKatana » Fri May 01, 2020 12:00 pm

The changes I support here and need to happen are

1 - Remove Retributionist from Ranked and Ranked Practice
2 - Make Framer able to show Mafia as inno
3 - Allow Disguiser to choose it's disguised role
4 - Remove Transporters ability to self Transport

I'm just trying to show my support for these proposed changes. The only change I think is necessary is 1 but I'm being generous by supporting the others. Anyways I think the 2 other people in this thread that have the most knowledge and need to be listened to are Vincethejester2 and Venusupreme.
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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby VivaPinata78 » Fri May 01, 2020 12:38 pm

As someone with almost 1k hours in the game here are my thoughts:

The Framer and Disguiser buffs are great. Those roles have been largely trash for a long time and only really served as an extra mafia vote or to throw off Spy/LO on Jailor.

Forger however also needs a substantial buff as it's only real utility right now is acting like a discount Janitor. The idea of Forger is great, being able to change someone's will to something else, but in practice it just doesn't work. Pretty much any high ELO town is going to be constantly claiming and posting their wills by d2 so by that point trying to change someone's will is irrelevant as the real one has already been posted. So what this means is you either have to get a lucky guess on someone's role and make a fitting will or just clear it to get rid of any info that might've been in it. The latter option is usually a lot more viable. Of course, if you have a Consig it's possible to pull off a decent forge, but again, most good townies will have posted their will anyway by d2 so the forge is pointless anyway.

One possible option is to maybe make it so you see will of the person you're going to forge when you click on them. There is of course the concern of making forger then just like a better Consig, which is valid. In that case I would make it so you can only forge once or twice (so Consig still has the advantage of just freely running around checking people whereas forger has to use it more sparingly). There's also the point that the person you're going to forge is probably dying anyway, so knowing their role isn't as useful unlike a Consig who checks people who are most likely going to live.

As for the Mafioso change, I think it's great. I would in a heartbeat throw myself at the guy who asks for TP/LO n1 if it means possibly killing Jailor or Ret or other important role. My only concern with it is the interactions with NK. NK already has it bad enough without the possibility of the Mafioso killing them, which I could see happening a lot once the meta works itself out and mafioso ends up just saving the attack for killing NK. Not really sure how you'd fix that as giving all the NK's invincibility seems a bit overpowered lol.

As for the Ret change, honestly it still seems largely overpowered. Even if you did make it so the revived person is a no role loser or killed the ret after reviving, the potential of confirming mediums still makes it too good. I'd say just get it out of the ranked role list. It's fine in All Any since those towns are largely skewed towards evil wins anyway, but remove it from ranked. Or, if you don't want to do that, just make it so that there can only be one TS role in any ranked game, regardless of the RT. Then your ideas of ret changes wouldn't be overpowered as the ret doesn't end up confirming half the town in a revive anyway. All the TS roles are largely instant confirm and OP anyway, so I wouldn't mind if games were capped to having just one.

Thanks for reading.
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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby woahah » Fri May 01, 2020 12:46 pm

Brilliand wrote:
woahah wrote:role ideas is a hellscape, there should be devs in testing grounds


...you mean Discord?

The Testing Grounds subforum appears to be completely dead.

both the discord and the lists of role fixes in there, that way the devs have a way to funnel out the garbage
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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby jucktropy » Fri May 01, 2020 1:09 pm

For the jailor Meta You Can Make The Role To Not Talk On Day 1 Still I Don't understand whats the point of D1

I Like Disguiser And Framer Changes As High Elo
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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby fwogcarf » Fri May 01, 2020 1:51 pm

Can we get an F in the chat for Town and NK winrates
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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby MysticMismagius » Fri May 01, 2020 1:58 pm

I shed no tears for Town as long as it doesn't get flipped around to the point where people start thinking Town has no chance.
NK does need some help, though.
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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby ingmarbruhgman » Fri May 01, 2020 5:53 pm

(I have ToS through Steam, is a temp account I made for the forums because I can't sign in using that account, for some reason)

I don't know if this is the right place to put this, but I'd like to see a Town Protective version of the witch.
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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby Jakinator178 » Fri May 01, 2020 7:35 pm

Mafioso
Allow a 1 time use per game Unstoppable Attack.

Thought process: In the current meta the Jailor has no fear of announcing himself on day 1, knowing that Town Protective's and the Lookout will guard him, making it impossible for the Mafia to deal with them. If the Mafioso has 1 Unstoppable Attack per game it would give the Mafia an opportunity to bypass Town Protective's on a priority role. Potentially this could be a 2 for 1 kill in the event of a BodyGuard. An added bonus is that this gives the Mafioso something unique to help the Mafia outside of just following the Godfather's orders. The Lookout would still be an issue but that is potentially addressed in an another change below.


Good idea, one that I would also consider is disabling the ability for jailor/other unique roles to talk until they reveal like the mayor can already do. That being said, it could be easy for town to abuse this by making everyone talk. Maybe it could give you all a springboard to work with?

Framer
Limited number of uses to target your own Mafia members, making them appear innocent. Additionally we want the Framer to be able to mess with the Lookout's results. Potentially Framing your own teammates makes them invisible to the Lookout or framing non-Mafia makes them show up on the Lookout's results.


Another interesting idea. I don't know about the last part. In my opinion, the lookout should be informed that someone may have actually not made a visit.

Disguiser
Instead of taking on the role of your target, you can select from a list of all possible roles to disguise as for the night.


My single problem with this is that it might be able to compromise the town if there is a list of roles in the game for disguiser to pick and choose from. I'd like to see something such as a button to "Disguise as a Town Investigative" or "Disguise as a Town Support", and it gives town members a good opportunity to corner the disguiser for sticking too closely to a role claim.

Retributionist
Can resurrect a Disguiser who had disguised as a townie upon death.
Resurrects a town member as a Citizen/Townie (vanilla town member with no abilities).

This nerfs the power of a Retributionist substantially but doesn't necessarily make the Retributionist more fun to play. Perhaps another option would be to give them 2 resurrections but the vanilla Townie will die the following night.


I think that if the disguiser can be resurrected, they need to have some consequences.


Lastly, PLEASE DO SOMETHING ABOUT NEUTRAL KILLING/WITCH IN RANKED!
Witch is a fun role to play as, BUT they constantly get killed in their crusade to help mafia! Please enable Witch to win with Mafia if the mafia is alive for a win but the witch isn't!

NK needs to straight-up be removed from ranked. Your only possible ally is the NE, and they always help mafia, never the nk. I have found nk so frustrating that I just straight up leave rather than play as nk. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to stick around for a 20 minute suicide march. Allow sk to decide if he wants to attack jailor or not!!


Actually, one more thing: Any end-season rewards? (Cosmetics and town points maybe?)
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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby BigSlug » Fri May 01, 2020 10:33 pm

This has probably been said, but giving Mafia a one time use unstoppable attack would be more likely used as a free kill on the discovered NK. Furthermore, up to 3 of the Mafia can become Mafioso, meaning most TP would be severely weakened as they can barely protect anything. The mafia would have an average of 2 unstoppable attacks per game to use on any evil or townie they want. Lookouts a counter but it's a 1 in 4 in standard, and 1 in 6 in coven.

Also please never implement any form of the Citizen. Relegating Retributionists to being more about votes then the abilities lost to the graveyard seems like a poor decision. I'd rather it be something like a Necromancer, being less able to give voting power but still able to give the dead's ability
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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby Brilliand » Fri May 01, 2020 10:35 pm

Jakinator178 wrote:That being said, it could be easy for town to abuse this by making everyone talk.


If you're calling townies talking "abuse", you're barking up the wrong tree.

Jakinator178 wrote:
Framer
Limited number of uses to target your own Mafia members, making them appear innocent. Additionally we want the Framer to be able to mess with the Lookout's results. Potentially Framing your own teammates makes them invisible to the Lookout or framing non-Mafia makes them show up on the Lookout's results.


In my opinion, the lookout should be informed that someone may have actually not made a visit.


That's as good as telling the Lookout that their target was framed. Mafia Deception roles need to be able to fool people.

Jakinator178 wrote:
Disguiser
Instead of taking on the role of your target, you can select from a list of all possible roles to disguise as for the night.


My single problem with this is that it might be able to compromise the town if there is a list of roles in the game for disguiser to pick and choose from.


We can only hope. It's a Deception role, it should be fooling people.

Jakinator178 wrote:
Retributionist
Can resurrect a Disguiser who had disguised as a townie upon death.


I think that if the disguiser can be resurrected, they need to have some consequences.


You want to penalize the Disguiser for fooling the Ret???

Jakinator178 wrote:Allow sk to decide if he wants to attack jailor or not!!


Yeah, I've said this before. SK should have a choice here.
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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby idealism04 » Sat May 02, 2020 5:06 am

While we're at it, can you do something about Vampires?
As much as I love spying on Vamps as VH, I think the fact that they cannot cooperate despite being an informed minority is unfair.

But I also don't want Vampire wins to be easier than they are already. Playing as vamp is fun because you have a really good chance of winning, playing against vamp isn't fun because there's no reliable way to get rid of vampires without VH, which isn't even guaranteed. A vampire has to be exceptionally unlucky in order to actually lose, such as when converts keep getting killed right away, hitting NK for 4 nights, hitting Maf for 4 nights, or if the role list is full of evils and not enough townies.

I was in a vamp game yesterday. Jailed N1, bit N2, died and hit mafia N4, convert jailed N5, only got our third convert N6, and still won. Most vamps have a full house by then.
Either make VH spawn every time there is a vampire or let Sheriff detect Vampires.
Of course, all this is based on All Any. I never got to play Dracula's Palace since it's empty whenever I try.
A hidden role list would be beneficial.
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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby Achilles » Sat May 02, 2020 12:41 pm

Piggy backing off of Venusupreme's idea, what if:

Jailor cannot jail the same person twice.

Effects: This stops permanent role blocks or permanently protecting another Town member. This will make a Jailor think twice about randomly jailing someone on N1. This forces the Jailor to make a permanent decision on executing or not since they can't just jail again the following night.
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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby BasicFourLife » Sat May 02, 2020 12:59 pm

Achilles wrote:Piggy backing off of Venusupreme's idea, what if:

Jailor cannot jail the same person twice.

Effects: This stops permanent role blocks or permanently protecting another Town member. This will make a Jailor think twice about randomly jailing someone on N1. This forces the Jailor to make a permanent decision on executing or not since they can't just jail again the following night.

or just replace Jailor with a Random Town in Ranked/RP and disable Jailor from spawning separetely, this way Jailor isn't less fun to play in any other modes while Ranked doesn't have a role that is infinitely better than any other TI, TP or TK.
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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby MysticMismagius » Sat May 02, 2020 2:24 pm

BasicFourLife wrote:
Achilles wrote:Piggy backing off of Venusupreme's idea, what if:

Jailor cannot jail the same person twice. (Twice in a row like Pirate, or just twice ever?)

Effects: This stops permanent role blocks or permanently protecting another Town member. This will make a Jailor think twice about randomly jailing someone on N1. This forces the Jailor to make a permanent decision on executing or not since they can't just jail again the following night.
or just replace Jailor with a Random Town in Ranked/RP and disable Jailor from spawning separately, this way Jailor isn't less fun to play in any other modes while Ranked doesn't have a role that is infinitely better than any other TI, TP or TK.
I agree with making it not being a guaranteed spawn, but are you suggesting disabling Jailor entirely? If so, I don't think it's that necessary or even possible under the current role generation mechanics. If not, ignore this.
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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby GordonFrohman » Sat May 02, 2020 2:42 pm

Framer Buff idea:

Frames should be permanent, and when a framed person is killed by anyone other than the Mafia, their role should show up as Framer.
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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby SwampRabbit » Sat May 02, 2020 2:50 pm

Achilles wrote:Piggy backing off of Venusupreme's idea, what if:

Jailor cannot jail the same person twice.

Effects: This stops permanent role blocks or permanently protecting another Town member. This will make a Jailor think twice about randomly jailing someone on N1. This forces the Jailor to make a permanent decision on executing or not since they can't just jail again the following night.


You might as well remove jailor from the role list. Some low ranked jailors do this where they just hold one person in jail all the time, but it is extremely rare.

This would be a dream for players who are really, really, really bad at evil roles or who GT everytime they are assigned to mafia. Why should a jailor who has used all 3 of his executions lose a game because he cannot rejail an evil player?

I think making it so that a REVEALED mayor or a revived player could not be jailed for protection more than 1 night (1 night to allow jailor to tell mayor who he/she is) would be fair. But there should be no limit on how many times a jailor can jail other players.

If we are looking for a way so that every person who is absolutely horrible at evil roles can win 90% of the time as mafia, that is going to kill the ranked mode faster than mafia winning slightly less often than town wins (without retri) that is what we see currently.
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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby Brilliand » Sat May 02, 2020 3:37 pm

I would be surprised if Jailor actually gets removed from Ranked, because Jailor is such a staple of the game.

However, Jailor is horrifically overpowered, and all modes would be more balanced with the Jailor removed.

I'd also be in favor of the lesser nerf of "Jailor cannot jail the same person twice." That sounds like the sort of thing that will make the role more interesting, in addition to more balanced.

MysticMismagius wrote:I agree with making it not being a guaranteed spawn, but are you suggesting disabling Jailor entirely? If so, I don't think it's that necessary or even possible under the current role generation mechanics. If not, ignore this.


I think the current situation ("Jailor is guaranteed") and "delete the Jailor entirely" are both better outcomes than "Make the Jailor non-guaranteed". A super-overpowered role causes less harm if it's guaranteed to be present, because the rest of the game can be balanced for the presence of that role. By contrast, if it randomly either exists or doesn't, then the balance of the game swings wildly back and forth, and the rest of the game can't compensate for both situations at once. (Consider how much trouble the randomly-appearing Retributionist causes in Ranked, despite it being weaker than the Jailor overall.)

For this reason, I think the Jailor role actually causes more problems for All Any than for Ranked.
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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby ScarfVendetta » Sat May 02, 2020 3:39 pm

Achilles wrote:Piggy backing off of Venusupreme's idea, what if:

Jailor cannot jail the same person twice.

Effects: This stops permanent role blocks or permanently protecting another Town member. This will make a Jailor think twice about randomly jailing someone on N1. This forces the Jailor to make a permanent decision on executing or not since they can't just jail again the following night.


That's quite a revolutionary change, but I think it could work. Jailor would still hold a lot of power but would have to be more cautious with who they jail, to ensure that they don't prevent themselves from being able to execute them later on. This would also prevent the aforementioned issue of a solo Mafia Killing or youngest Vampire becoming trapped in infinite lockdown.

BasicFourLife wrote:or just replace Jailor with a Random Town in Ranked/RP and disable Jailor from spawning separetely, this way Jailor isn't less fun to play in any other modes while Ranked doesn't have a role that is infinitely better than any other TI, TP or TK.

Gameplay-wise, Jailor is such a key role. Balance aside, the majority of the playerbase would be very unhappy were it to be removed from Ranked.

MysticMismagius wrote:I agree with making it not being a guaranteed spawn, but are you suggesting disabling Jailor entirely? If so, I don't think it's that necessary or even possible under the current role generation mechanics. If not, ignore this.

Making it so Jailor will only sometimes spawn just increases the swing of the rolelist, which I think would be unhealthy for Ranked.
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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby woahah » Sat May 02, 2020 3:53 pm

Achilles is ignoring his balance team for a part of the community that is constantly being toxic and being banned cool cool
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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby Brilliand » Sat May 02, 2020 3:58 pm

I should mention that some people in Role Ideas have proposed making the Ranked rolelist randomly spawn either a Jailor or a Retributionist, but not both. That wouldn't create the same problems as switching the Jailor out for a Random Town, because the Ret is also an overpowered role, so the town would still have "1 guaranteed overpowered role". That proposal is best classified as a "Retributionist nerf", though (since its main effect is to make the Ret stop spawning in the TS or RT slots).
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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby Achilles » Sat May 02, 2020 4:04 pm

woahah wrote:Achilles is ignoring his balance team for a part of the community that is constantly being toxic and being banned cool cool


I'm not intentionally trying to ignore anyone I am just juggling a lot right now. I was finishing implementing ssl sockets for https support on the html5 port, fixing random Websocket bugs, implementing Town Traitor and discussing balance for both Town Traitor and the new ranked season. Apologies if I miss something.
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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby Royee » Sat May 02, 2020 4:14 pm

Brilliand wrote:I should mention that some people in Role Ideas have proposed making the Ranked rolelist randomly spawn either a Jailor or a Retributionist, but not both. That wouldn't create the same problems as switching the Jailor out for a Random Town, because the Ret is also an overpowered role, so the town would still have "1 guaranteed overpowered role". That proposal is best classified as a "Retributionist nerf", though (since its main effect is to make the Ret stop spawning in the TS or RT slots).

Are you referring to a Town Power slot?
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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby MysticMismagius » Sat May 02, 2020 4:34 pm

Edit: can't delete this post for some reason
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Re: The start of balance discussions

Postby Shodan79 » Sat May 02, 2020 4:38 pm

I'm loving the disguiser and framer improvements. If I could pick my disguise then I can plan, otherwise your stuck sitting back and waiting for someone to claim something and then the Spy finds you right away. I don't think the Mafia need a magic bullet, but put it in the test server and see what happens.
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