Season 6 role list

Put any feedback about the game here.

How should the new ranked list be balanced?

Remove Neutral Killing
7
26%
Remove ambusher
5
19%
Guarantee ambusher
4
15%
Other
11
41%
 
Total votes : 27

Season 6 role list

Postby cob709 » Thu Oct 06, 2022 5:11 pm

In Patch 3.3.8 Ranked Season 5 Ends!, shapesifter13 wrote:Hey Townies,

Today we are releasing Town of Salem patch 3.3.8 for a new Ranked Season. We've consulted with a number of people from the ToS community to introduce a new Classic Ranked role list Ranked Season 6. You can play this new role list now.

The current role list is unsuitable for ranked gameplay. Evils have too many kills per night. Consider removing Neutral Killing from the role list and returning ambusher to coven exclusive. Otherwise, rebalance the role list with a guaranteed ambusher. You must decide whether the Mafia will have 1 KPN or 2 KPN, it must not be random and not 3 KPN.


In this game, town eliminated two evil players by night 3 but still lost. There were no gamethrowers, leavers, nor mislynches. The game was in a Lynch or Lose stage by day 2. This is unacceptable.
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Re: Season 6 role list

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:38 pm

Change a RT for TK and remove guaranteed MS
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Re: Season 6 role list

Postby James2 » Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:39 pm

The town failed to kill any evils d2 or n2. Strongly penalizing sub-optimal play is a good thing, provided that it's penalized on both sides. It's not yet clear to me whether that is the case.
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Re: Season 6 role list

Postby cob709 » Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:25 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Change a RT for TK and remove guaranteed MS

I agree, having too many RT slots swings the game way too much. However, I'm okay with an MS slot.

James2 wrote:The town failed to kill any evils d2 or n2. Strongly penalizing sub-optimal play is a good thing, provided that it's penalized on both sides. It's not yet clear to me whether that is the case.
/s

ebwop

-:-

Use 2x playback speed

Mayor is overpowered. It can single-handedly overpower the entire Mafia, as observed in the video. Judge's pardon ability should be implemented as a mayor overhaul
Even though the Mafia was entirely wiped out during the first four days, the Town was still on the brink of losing against the arsonist. If the Mafia had obtained even one kill or had a single player remain connected, it is certain that the town would have been defeated, despite playing optimally.

NK must be removed, Mayor must be nerf'd, and town must have a TK slot.
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Re: Season 6 role list

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Oct 12, 2022 9:24 am

tfw cob is the voice of reason
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

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Re: Season 6 role list

Postby alex1234321 » Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:15 am

cob709 wrote:NK must be removed, Mayor must be nerf'd, and town must have a TK slot.


You mixed it up a little.

Mayor must be removed, Town must be nerfed, and Neutrals must have an NK slot.
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Re: Season 6 role list

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:00 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
cob709 wrote:NK must be removed, Mayor must be nerf'd, and town must have a TK slot.


You mixed it up a little.

Mayor must be removed, Town must be nerfed, and Neutrals must have an NK slot.


Agreed on the Town part lol.

Theirs ALOT more then just those changes, Neutral evil for example needs BIG changes, currently it's very swingy to have Jester and witch share the same slot, one is a neutral benign (that basically fails at it's job to discourage lynches, which is also a bad thing town shouldn't be punished for correctly scum reading), Exe is kinda ok? i rather it moved out with jester (Esp if it still turns into one), both should be put into "neutral chaos"

NK is fine in ranked, I've been against it in the past but it does make the game more fun for a more casual audience, Season 5 was boring to play might be due to other factors aswell but having no nk was a big part of it, They just need to REALLY and I mean really fix Arsonist/werewolf their current state is actually horrendous (ww has always been bad tbf)

Mafia needs TMK, GF/MAFIOSO already clog up 2 roles for RM/MS/MD slots which would make mafia more fun in general, This would buff escort in the early/mid game with making it less OP late game, Jailor couldn't chain jail a GF once mafioso dies, also rework useless roles: Disguiser, Framer and Hypnotist. (Thank god Forger actually was made into a decent role).

Town needs, 1. Jailor Should die even when protected while jailing, 2. Mayor moved to share a slot with jailor. 3. Trans & spy in need big changes, Spy needs to be reworked it's current role sits and does nothing for information. Trans is blatantly overpowered could even argue this role in it's current state, competes with jailors oppressiveness (Just way more harder to perform consistently). 4, Adjustments to over roles such as Vigi, Lo, Med, Sheriff ect. (Some UP, Some less rng, vigi less punishing). Theirs so much town changes that need to be made.
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Re: Season 6 role list

Postby EqsyLootz » Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:18 pm

cob709 wrote:NK must be removed, Mayor must be nerf'd, and town must have a TK slot.


Agreed on the TK town slot thing-
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Re: Season 6 role list

Postby cob709 » Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:04 am

This is a ranked game.
Set playback speed to 2x


During Night 1 to Day 4, the Mafioso(Ascended[6]), Forger(Miley[10]), and Consort(water[15]) were exposed and hung by the lookout(Town leader[11])
This was good play by Town and should have secured the victory for them.
However, the vigilante(QwErTy[4]) shot the sheriff(Sheep[8]) and caused the town to lose majority

It would have been okay if the Mafia won, since they tricked the vigilante into shooting the sheriff
It would have been okay if the Town won, since they lynched three mafia members consecutively
it is not okay for the Jester(Ciper[1]) to have won, as they were guaranteed a win due to Day 5 gamestate.
It is not okay for the Arsonist(Hi[14]) to have won, as they made no effort to socially interact.

TKs need to be nerf'd, their extra kills make the game too swingy, one mistake should not cost town the whole game
The role list must be modified, TK's extra kills make the game too swingy, one mistake should not cost town the whole game
NKs need to be removed, their extra kills make the game too swingy
NE needs to be removed, their extra kills make the game too swingy, replace it with witch
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Re: Season 6 role list

Postby Sting » Tue Oct 25, 2022 6:08 am

5 RT is a joke. Evils do not need that amount of claim space. It sacrifices game balance and places even more RNG emphasis on the game. It's not going to magically make an evils d4 Medium claim with no dead chat more believable. The key for evils winning has always been claiming or ccing early and being aggressive, forcing towns into mislynches. Most don't want to do that though and sit silent/not voting and end up getting scumread.

3 rt was more than enough claim space. Even in legacy where there was one RT, you could fake claim well. The extra claim space was not necessary, and certainty not worth the trade off for games with 3+ TPs or op TS roles like Mayor and Ret. At the very least remove one RT and add a TK slot back.
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Re: Season 6 role list

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Oct 25, 2022 6:22 am

Sting wrote:5 RT is a joke. Evils do not need that amount of claim space. It sacrifices game balance and places even more RNG emphasis on the game. It's not going to magically make an evils d4 Medium claim with no dead chat more believable. The key for evils winning has always been claiming or ccing early and being aggressive, forcing towns into mislynches. Most don't want to do that though and sit silent/not voting and end up getting scumread.

3 rt was more than enough claim space. Even in legacy where there was one RT, you could fake claim well. The extra claim space was not necessary, and certainty not worth the trade off for games with 3+ TPs or op TS roles like Mayor and Ret. At the very least remove one RT and add a TK slot back.


3 RTs wasnt enough. Process of elimination could easily start d2, the problem with 5 RTs is the swing of no guaranteed TK and the diference between power level, if TK was guaranteed and all RT were roughly equal in power it wouldnt be a problem
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Re: Season 6 role list

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Oct 26, 2022 3:53 pm

fwiw I think the solution to vig being super swingy is to just remove suicide guilt
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Season 6 role list

Postby Sting » Thu Oct 27, 2022 11:21 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:3 RTs wasnt enough. Process of elimination could easily start d2, the problem with 5 RTs is the swing of no guaranteed TK and the diference between power level, if TK was guaranteed and all RT were roughly equal in power it wouldnt be a problem


I really don't think PoE has been significant in the most game defining days (2+3) since the early seasons. I mean of course sometimes you had multiple Trans and Escorts confirmed by Spy d2 last season, but I'd rather have that than 5 RT where those slots are really going to completely swing the game, it's hugely RNG dependant for all parties. How would you even going about "evening the power" between 5 RT? TK itself wasn't a terrible claim for immune evils, I don't see why they needed to remove that to add another RT.

You couldn't confidently claim a lot of roles because of how prevalent Jailor meta was with a LO last season (unless you paid attention to early whispers and/or risked there not being a LO). Now that the meta is objectively bad to do in S6 with potential Arso/Consort through MS and is way less common (in my anecdotal experience), that opens up TP/Spy/Escort claims for evils and even Lookout itself if you're feeling creative. There was no need for additional claim space with another 2 RT.

BMG have done decent enough job buffing evils through the years, they should've just gone with the S4 role list again with a MS if they wanted NK back. Albeit boring, I would say S5 with 3 RT was the most balanced the role list has ever been in ranked.
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Re: Season 6 role list

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:53 pm

again I think there's a pretty obvious middle ground here called "4 RTs and a TK" that dodges the issue of not having a singular TK slot while also opening claimspace a bit wider since

- Mayor is insta-confirmable
- Retri is unique (why???)
- Two Mediums instantly confirm each other, so one instantly thunderdomes a fakeclaim
- Transporter is very confirmable excepting very smart Hypnotist play
- Escort is decently confirmable excepting Hypnotist/Consort, albeit still not a bad fakeclaim

all of which make TS not a lot of real, tangible claimspace

so basically this

Sting wrote:At the very least remove one RT and add a TK slot back.
Image
Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Season 6 role list

Postby SpiritWolfLord » Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:38 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:again I think there's a pretty obvious middle ground here called "4 RTs and a TK" that dodges the issue of not having a singular TK slot while also opening claimspace a bit wider since

- Mayor is insta-confirmable
- Retri is unique (why???)
- Two Mediums instantly confirm each other, so one instantly thunderdomes a fakeclaim
- Transporter is very confirmable excepting very smart Hypnotist play
- Escort is decently confirmable excepting Hypnotist/Consort, albeit still not a bad fakeclaim

all of which make TS not a lot of real, tangible claimspace

so basically this

Sting wrote:At the very least remove one RT and add a TK slot back.


Most people I've talked to agree that removing an RT in favor of a TK is a good idea. TK is needed to give town an edge late game, but to also allow claimspace to actually matter. Currently, the game is just All Any with a set number of town and evils, with a jailor. Ranked should have some actual structure, and not be mostly random chance. And since town has more people, it makes sense to give town a SLIGHT edge over evils. The current ranked takes out a lot of deductive reasoning that the older role lists provided. I don't even count rts anymore. Also, TK being a confirmed role gives town a chance to turn the tides every game, even if jailor exes a townie or dies early.
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Re: Season 6 role list

Postby pogogranis » Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:42 am

I dont know...right now if you claim TK and you havent shot anyone as vig or "vet baited" day1 you get executed by town anyway.

So maybe having 4RT and 1TK slot would prevent that from happen more often.
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Re: Season 6 role list

Postby WildCard65 » Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:12 pm

Going to chime in and say Disguiser is not useless, used correctly and its power will prevail. Disguiser currently f***s with Sheriff, Investigator, Lookout AND Spy.
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Re: Season 6 role list

Postby Soulshade55r » Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:45 am

WildCard65 wrote:Going to chime in and say Disguiser is not useless, used correctly and its power will prevail. Disguiser currently f***s with Sheriff, Investigator, Lookout AND Spy.

Spy ruins it by existing.
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Spoiler: Town: Jailor
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Re: Season 6 role list

Postby MysticMismagius » Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:46 am

As with most RM roles, that is Spy’s problem and not Disguiser’s

Although Disguiser has a better time with Spy than most because you can make other RM roles look more believable. Consort can claim Escort, Consigliere can claim Investigator or Sheriff, Ambusher can claim Lookout, etc. without being insta-busted by Spy.

As long as you don’t disguise your MK on Night 1, Disguiser makes Spies less obnoxious to the rest of the team.
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