Ranked is Unbalance

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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:23 pm

Executioner and Jester are more complicated than just being moved to Benign though, and Pirate should definitely NOT be NE considering it's already NC. Disagree they are primarily benign roles as they have no quarrel with anyone and couldn't care who wins. Remove night time immunity from Executioner though

Retributionist I think should revert back to classic BUT with changes. Reviving is a gratifying mechanic which is fun to play, and I don't think it can't be balanced - but it would require my Medium rework alongside a change to make it more skillful than click a button.
Sure it can be balanced as apart of the apporiate allignment,

Most of the confirmability stems from massclaims and the Ranked role list, which can be fixed by modifying the rolelist (which arguably should happen before ANY balance changes).

Fixing the role list won't do a lot and a Town Government role will still always ask for tp/lo even with a possible Lookout. Auditor and a non-town 1-shot day kill is what we need.

While all of those are true, it still violates the core mechanic of Mafia only getting a single, factional kill per night. The only way I could see a daykill being possible is if it meant Mafia could not kill the next night, and I'm not a fan of that mechanic.
How is that a core mechanic?


That's the only way I could see Auditor being added. It would still be a hard sell to TG though.
I highly disagree with all the reworks and new roles that the TG supports, as they're suggesting nothing to fix this game as they all love their almighty Jailor.


Actually, it isn't more fun, because players who have died can leave and play a different game. Players who lost their roles have to participate in the day without any abilities - and while I do love Citizens, this game isn't the place for that. Trust me, this argument has been had before (I was a big proponent of adding Citizens in 2016
But they can't play a leave a new game because of Medium and if Retri were reverted to classic. Once you're dead, you should not have to participate at all and should be free to leave.


Marshall is perfectly balanced on paper. In practice, let's say the Town Government lineup is Jailor, Mayor, and Marshall. You have 1/3 odds of getting a game with a JOAT and 2/3 odds of a Public Leader. It'd be like adding a role called Detective that has a different investigative list (but otherwise functions exactly like Investigator) to Town Investigative, technically the roles are different as they use different lists but it still skews the odds and makes games more repetitive.

I think if we need to have Marshall in the game, it should be an alternative command for Mayor - when Mayor reveals, it can choose between Political Power and Martial Law. Political Power is Mayor we know and love, Martial Law is Mayor having an anonymous second vote and three lynches in the day they reveal without revealing Mayor. Not a fan of this really but it is a solution IF we need Marshall.

It's perfectly balanced, so why should it not exist. It would be a fun and enjoyable role to play. One of the reasons this game is dying is because of the lack of updates, more roles = update. And Jailor should not be Town Government, it should be nerfed to Town Killing. So 100% odds of becoming a Public Leader. The only other role that would fit there with Marshall and Mayor, would be a day-killer whos revealed when he shoots.

Also claiming Mayor as Mafia or NE when Jailed is a pro-strat when evils have the advantage and you know any other claim will get you executed. Even more of a pro play for the Jailors who can see through this and make the execute anyway. This will not be possible with your current scenario



They could, but a confirmed townie could ask you to visit them to reveal you. And if you're NK, you're screwed. I also don't agree with a limited use TP, or TI.

We're reducing town confirambility, so people shouldn't be confirmed early on in the first place. If you've played SC2Mafia, armorsmith is definitely not a confirmable role and there are many easy ways to fake it.

I'm confused, isn't Witch a Proper Neutral Evil? It's the original, and currently only, Proper Neutral Evil in Town of Salem really.

True. I meant like a 1-time use vest that you have to activate. Witch should lose some sort of immunity though. IMO it should keep deception immunity but lose its night time defense. You get unlucky and die N1, suck it up and join another game.

And to reduce town confirmability, targets should no longer know that they are Witched. Players will still receive feedback but it will be on whoever they were Witched on.
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:23 am

Jester needs reworks in the form its in, all moving it to Benign would do is stop it from spawning in Evil. Also, Executioner does have a quarrel with a Town member, that makes it automatically scum sided. The best solution I've seen to those roles is making them Traitor Roles (see alex1234321's thread). Witch has "detection immunity" because town doesn't need to kill the Witch to win. A lone Arsonist, or lone Mafia member, needs to be found and killed before the game can be concluded. A lone Witch just loses unless Vigilante exists (and even then, once Witch forces Vigilante to shoot a Town member, the game ends in a Town victory). Since Witch isn't technically a threat to the Town, Sheriff shouldn't have to find it.

Executioner can still win with the town, Jester would be absolutely fine spawning only in Benign, as its not appropriate as evil. As Neutral Evils should be able to contribute to the victory of an evil factions win conditions.

The game should not end at all if there is a Witch alive. Witch should always win in a 1v1 tie against town. And a Witch (and future NES that get added) should have a chance to win by mislynching. Lynching a Vigilante for the sole purpose of "ending the game" is a horrible mechanic, the game should just end anyway as the Witch has no chance of winning. But I'd rather the Town actually still have to kill the Witch. And lynching Vigilante so Witch cannot use it, should be considered game throwning.


You have given no reasons for removing Witch's autoshield besides "suck it up and join another game". Mafia doesn't want to kill Witch. That's why autovest exist - a failed kill is by far less damaging than a crosskill. It buffs evils and buffs Witch. Do you not like buffed evils or Witch?
A failed kill is a fail kill, shit happens. As Mafia, accept the fail and move on and try to win. As Witch, leave and join another game.

Witch's notification is a core mechanic, and allows it to meaningfully interact with the game. It also buffs Hypnotist.

It is not a core mechanic just because you say it is. Removing the notification would be far more balanced and would reduce town confirmability. Investigative results will no longer be 100% certain if there's a possible Witch in the game

Also, How does it buff hypnotist? I've never seen the extra Witch manipulation notification be useful


t's literally Mayor with a different ability. What you're suggesting is like adding Detective, which is an Investigator with a different list. Marshall isn't particularly fun or enjoyable either considering it becomes a Citizen once it uses its ability. Also, Jailor will ALWAYS be too confirmable for Town Killing and means TK will become unclaimable. That is not a good thing, and is undesirable for claimspace.

A strategy that has an 80% chance of backfiring isn't something I'd call a pro-strat by any means. And if taking that strategy away is the one and only downside of having Town Government and making it so Mayor and Jailor can't spawn together, that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make because holy crap Mayor-Jailor combos are OP.

Completely different ability. 2 trials, 2 lynches per trial is the most balanced way to go, so it still has another use after revealing. It's a useful ability and Marshall will still have be able to lead the town after using his trials up. Marshall shouldn't be surviving much longer then that though. You get domiance and control over the town and this will most likely be one of the most popular roles to play as. Becoming a Citizen after using his ability is irrelevant when the ability is a lot more fun then other abilities. Vigilante becomes a Citizen once it uses its ability.

Executing a fake Mayor claim often happens in Diamond and above. Claiming Mayor is certainly a very good Strat if too many other town roles are confirmed and all you need is an extra night for majority. The pro Jailors in higher ranks can see through this though.

Jailor and Mayor combo is opp in the current game. Nerf Jailor to TK. The point of this thread is to reduce confirmability. Jailor should not always exist and people should be able to fake claim it, even with a real Jailor in the game.

Bodyguard • Bus Driver • Caroler (this was not here before, and may be a fake role) • Citizen • Coroner • Crier • Detective • Doctor • Escort • Investigator • Jailor • Lookout • Marshall • Mason • Mason Leader • Mayor • Sheriff • Spy • Stump • Veteran

I've played this game a lot in the last couple of weeks. It 100% exists along with about 12 other roles that have recently been added. I believe the wiki hasn't been updated in awhile. Also, Caroler is a slightly more balanced Physic that gives 3 possible evil names to its target, rather then just receiving them himself.

The Town and Mafia kill at the exact same rate - one kill per day/night. Town has additional killing roles because the Mafia can manipulate those roles into killing their own faction. Since Town can't do the same to Mafia, Mafia should only get a single factional kill per night. Mafia's strength lies in deception mixed with moderate kill power.

Moderate kill power, so implement TMK and have a Mafia killing alignment (no mafioso, gf) where only 1 can spawn. Day time assassin, old disguiser from SC2, Ambusher reworked.
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:52 am

It buffs evils and buffs Witch. Do you not like buffed evils or Witch?


Evils need to be buffed by nerfing the towns confirmability. A couple of RM roles need reworks and buffs. But screwing Sheriffs and Vigilantes over is not the way to buff evils
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:20 pm

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=119393 balancing for roles
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Fri Apr 22, 2022 1:31 am

bump thias
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Fri Apr 22, 2022 7:44 am

Tbh I dont know what I can add rn
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:29 am

Lets try fix ranked again
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby Soulshade55r » Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:39 pm

hey so im planning on making a megathread at somepoint on how we can ideally fix ranked for a 5v10 format.

6V9 has always been TOO SCUM SIDED. But theirs so much easy confirmability that the absurdly mafia sided setup of 6v9 is actually somewhat balanced? but not in a good way because the game is about how fast town can confirm people and sus out fake claims, any mistakes from either faction can lead to a auto loss. I really want to make some ideas that would actually make ranked fun to play but yeah.

In a nutshell:
TMK, Maf LO, Spy Reworked, Transporter no self trans, Vigilante guilt, Less uniques (Vet/Ret, id say we could change vet a bit and nerf it? vets a weird role to balance imo, Retri should have a day ability to become a role for the night, they can't target the same player, but they can use more stuff like a Transporter ect.) buffs to a lot of RM, ways to counter Jailor, Jailor nerfs, Jailor & Mayor "Town Power" only spawning once, Mayor buffs to aling with jailor, Mafioso/GF reworked because of TMK, List goes on and on but we need a lot of changes to effect townies that make auto ez confirms hard.
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Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby PatrykSzczescie » Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:51 am

Comparing to previous ranked rolelists, I think the current one has been the most balanced one so far.

The previous ones were strongly town-sided. Mafia and neutrals were forced to co-operate with each other to meet their win conditions which wasn't easy with competent town. When evils jumped on each other, sometimes unintentionally, town mistakes were even more forgiving. Moreover, town was sometimes given won games on a plate by evils this way. Evil factions didn't have such free wins. NK has always been the hardest role to win because of a single member against everybody else. Most of NK wins were pity wins - getting into 1v1v1 situation where 100% winning (NE) or 100% losing (mostly town) living player just hands NK a win.

The current rolelist is balanced between factions - when I roll town, I am less certain of a win and even as mafia I have to try not to lose the game. The roles are set the way that no one is in 100% loss situation for being targeted N1 such as starting jester. There's less RNG in the game where you happen to see evils kill each other. The existence of both witch and exe in the game is a good nerf to jailor meta, massclaiming strategy and guilty push - you can still pull out these strategies but they're as viable as the opposite to them (silent jailor, no claim, don't lynch early) though the most optimal strategy is finding the middle ground.

There's no certain overpowered strategy that works every game. You have to adjust your decisions to how the game goes, not only based on your role. Trans can protect jailor/vig from the witch one of those can claim for trans protection. Evils outing in 6v6 situation is risky due to some town roles capable of regaining majority when a few of them make the right decisions at once. Vig fakeclaiming another town role is one whole double-edged strategy.

Role confirmability is not balanced but I don't think they need to be. Every game there can be some confirmed town roles but it's part of the game. The mafia is supposed to mess up with confirmations. LO and spy combo can be strong confirming 5 players as town during a single night but mafia always has a visiting role that can decrease the amount of confirmed players. LO role is easy to confirm but mafia can also fake visits after discussing a strategy during the night and disguiser can incriminate LO by showing a fake visit. Even jailor can be cc'd where mafs back up their partner's claim and getting jailor lynched can be a winning move for evils. As an evil, you just have to work out with confirmed roles and adjust your strategy to end up with you winning.

I'm fine with no TMK. Sacrificing GF or mafioso is usually a bad strategy and the remaining evils should protect their killing mafs from being exposed. Most of games where I see the only killing mafia being blocked is when the killing mafia makes a bad claim such as BG or TK. If this happens though, the witch can force execute or hypno can fake an attack.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that neutrals need some appeal though.

Exe is a neutral role. There can be games 9v6 but there also can be 10v5 or the exe can try something different. However, most of games exe sides mafia. One of reasons is the mutual win condition which makes co-operation easier to pull off. Especially when exe target is confirmed townie there's no other choice - which kind of balances the game between factions: town gets a confirmed member which in result enforces 9v6. But even in other scenarios where exe wins without any help, there's a popular meta that exe helps maf win regardless. It's because of the old ranked where exe had to very often rely on other evils to meet the win condition or the evils were given pity wins due to them being a difficult faction. Even though this no longer applies to the current ranked, players got used to the meta where exe simply sides evil. The thing is that if people somehow forget about how the old ranked worked, the exe would be more of a wild card and there you have 9v5 with exe interfering. Same applies to jester.

Witch is a good role but has one flaw in the win condition - has to survive. This discourages from making some ballsy strategies with intention to sacrifice the witch to kill more townies or let maf gain a lot of information such as totally risky claims solely to spread chaos like cc'ing jailor or random guilties every day. It would be more fun to play a witch if the only thing I was required to do was to make town lose so I could pull off such plays. It doesn't help that town targets the witch, once to gain more advantage than if they attempted to kill a maf, another time when they just want to simply make the witch lose whenever possible as the town loses too. This even requires jester and witch to trust each other in a situation with 2 mafs left, that the jester won't haunt the witch considering that the losing town doesn't want to make the neutrals win.
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby Soulshade55r » Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:54 am

PatrykSzczescie wrote:Comparing to previous ranked rolelists, I think the current one has been the most balanced one so far.

The previous ones were strongly town-sided. Mafia and neutrals were forced to co-operate with each other to meet their win conditions which wasn't easy with competent town. When evils jumped on each other, sometimes unintentionally, town mistakes were even more forgiving. Moreover, town was sometimes given won games on a plate by evils this way. Evil factions didn't have such free wins. NK has always been the hardest role to win because of a single member against everybody else. Most of NK wins were pity wins - getting into 1v1v1 situation where 100% winning (NE) or 100% losing (mostly town) living player just hands NK a win.

The current rolelist is balanced between factions - when I roll town, I am less certain of a win and even as mafia I have to try not to lose the game. The roles are set the way that no one is in 100% loss situation for being targeted N1 such as starting jester. There's less RNG in the game where you happen to see evils kill each other. The existence of both witch and exe in the game is a good nerf to jailor meta, massclaiming strategy and guilty push - you can still pull out these strategies but they're as viable as the opposite to them (silent jailor, no claim, don't lynch early) though the most optimal strategy is finding the middle ground.

There's no certain overpowered strategy that works every game. You have to adjust your decisions to how the game goes, not only based on your role. Trans can protect jailor/vig from the witch one of those can claim for trans protection. Evils outing in 6v6 situation is risky due to some town roles capable of regaining majority when a few of them make the right decisions at once. Vig fakeclaiming another town role is one whole double-edged strategy.

Role confirmability is not balanced but I don't think they need to be. Every game there can be some confirmed town roles but it's part of the game. The mafia is supposed to mess up with confirmations. LO and spy combo can be strong confirming 5 players as town during a single night but mafia always has a visiting role that can decrease the amount of confirmed players. LO role is easy to confirm but mafia can also fake visits after discussing a strategy during the night and disguiser can incriminate LO by showing a fake visit. Even jailor can be cc'd where mafs back up their partner's claim and getting jailor lynched can be a winning move for evils. As an evil, you just have to work out with confirmed roles and adjust your strategy to end up with you winning.

I'm fine with no TMK. Sacrificing GF or mafioso is usually a bad strategy and the remaining evils should protect their killing mafs from being exposed. Most of games where I see the only killing mafia being blocked is when the killing mafia makes a bad claim such as BG or TK. If this happens though, the witch can force execute or hypno can fake an attack.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that neutrals need some appeal though.

Exe is a neutral role. There can be games 9v6 but there also can be 10v5 or the exe can try something different. However, most of games exe sides mafia. One of reasons is the mutual win condition which makes co-operation easier to pull off. Especially when exe target is confirmed townie there's no other choice - which kind of balances the game between factions: town gets a confirmed member which in result enforces 9v6. But even in other scenarios where exe wins without any help, there's a popular meta that exe helps maf win regardless. It's because of the old ranked where exe had to very often rely on other evils to meet the win condition or the evils were given pity wins due to them being a difficult faction. Even though this no longer applies to the current ranked, players got used to the meta where exe simply sides evil. The thing is that if people somehow forget about how the old ranked worked, the exe would be more of a wild card and there you have 9v5 with exe interfering. Same applies to jester.

Witch is a good role but has one flaw in the win condition - has to survive. This discourages from making some ballsy strategies with intention to sacrifice the witch to kill more townies or let maf gain a lot of information such as totally risky claims solely to spread chaos like cc'ing jailor or random guilties every day. It would be more fun to play a witch if the only thing I was required to do was to make town lose so I could pull off such plays. It doesn't help that town targets the witch, once to gain more advantage than if they attempted to kill a maf, another time when they just want simply make the witch lose whenever possible as the town loses too. This even requires jester and witch to trust each other in a situation with 2 mafs left, that the jester won't haunt the witch considering that the losing town doesn't want to make the neutrals win.


I think this role list is the most balanced, but that being said its not balanced in a fun way, ranked generally is determined by a lot of RNG factors, some player skill of course but i feel like the game should be more directed to a 5v10 with major town nerfs.

Silent jailors normally lose the game from my POV, at least from the ranked games ive been playing, outing as Jailor D1 is always a good bet even with witch.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
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NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby PatrykSzczescie » Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:40 am

Yeah, kind of old ranked was less balanced but more fun due to how unpredictable that could be. Either chilling out as town or getting some challenge as evil.
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby Soulshade55r » Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:01 pm

PatrykSzczescie wrote:Yeah, kind of old ranked was less balanced but more fun due to how unpredictable that could be. Either chilling out as town or getting some challenge as evil.


Old ranked was more Healthy but not more balanced. I'm not a fan of either, We need to make ranked a environment less about clicking buttons on a role to confirm and getting lucky or unlucky and more about social deduction.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:31 pm

Im working on small changes to a lot of roles

I will make a post about it soon
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:41 pm

There shouldn't be only 1 ranked playlist. If this game was balanced, the devs wouldn't be struggling so much with trying to get the perfect ranked set-up. There really should be 5 or so possible set-ups that can roll in ranked. EpicMafia was balanced and had multiple set-ups. Starcraft II was very similar to this, but there were hundreds of ranked like set-ups that were created. It wouldn't be hard to do. Less town confirmability, jailor counters and more claim space are things that are needed to make ranked balance.

People also want more of a competitve game. I know theres a few of the outspoken miniorty on this forum that like TOS more casual style. But competitive games are becoming more popular. People like a challenge, people like to be rewarded for being good (the ranked system sucks in this game), people actually want to use deception and scum read properly.
Last edited by TheTraitorofSalem on Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:33 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:There shouldn't be only 1 ranked playlist. If this game wasn't balanced, the devs wouldn't be struggling so much with trying to get the perfect ranked set-up. There really should be 5 or so possible set-ups that can roll in ranked. EpicMafia was balanced and had multiple set-ups. Starcraft II was very similar to this, but there were hundreds of ranked like set-ups that were created. It wouldn't be hard to do. Less town confirmability, jailor counters and more claim space are things that are needed to make ranked balance.

People also want more of a competitve game. I know theres a few of the outspoken miniorty on this forum that like TOS more casual style. But competitive games are becoming more popular. People like a challenge, people like to be rewarded for being good (the ranked system sucks in this game), people actually want to use deception and scum read properly.


I can kinda agree, while i dont think its the best balance choice to have a different role list but it sure as hell makes ranked dry rn.
Heck i even want Neutral benign and Killing back sometimes because you can only get them in all any now. I find all any fine but its not a game mode with structure and i enjoy structure.
Elo needs somewhat of a rework, I feel like its not really a good system currently feels too random..
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby Algus » Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:26 am

i prefer old ranked list, always have

not a fan of the any allowing for vampires but aside from that

mafia should be limited to 1 mafia deception imo. would guarantee second rm is either consort/amb/bm/consig (which are better roles than say a second janitor/framer/disguiser etc)


the exe serves a pretty relevant purpose, it makes it so sheriffs arent 100% trustable day 2 lets say

the forums have only ever made good roles bad and fun roles suck so i wont ever condone another role rework. its not once ended well
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:01 pm

Algus wrote:i prefer old ranked list, always have

not a fan of the any allowing for vampires but aside from that

mafia should be limited to 1 mafia deception imo. would guarantee second rm is either consort/amb/bm/consig (which are better roles than say a second janitor/framer/disguiser etc)


the exe serves a pretty relevant purpose, it makes it so sheriffs arent 100% trustable day 2 lets say

the forums have only ever made good roles bad and fun roles suck so i wont ever condone another role rework. its not once ended well

Assuming you mean season 1? I kinda do actually prefer the verity and the fun that the old role list brings, I see why it was changed, but that being said the old list was more healthy for TOS more casual audience (Even for a ranked mode).

I think the problem was it was a 8v5 (+1 any, +1 NB) so it was a more chaotic swingy role list, that being said i miss the structure of old classic ranked it was really good for just having some fun without having to play the cluster fuck of all any.

Its really dissapointing to me how unused Neutral benign and Neutral Killing are now, theirs no just general casual game mode that has a actual role list.

I think for ranked we should generally either commit to one direction or another either go back to this more casual version with possible kingsmakers, or this strict 1faction v 1faction mode.


I think my main issue with exe, sometimes its generally optimal to out to jailor and work with town, I know this sounds insane when starting out, but ive generally found exe's win way more if they side town and be a extra vote.

Of course town can screw you over just as easily because ur target is gonna be town, sometimes town don't trust exe's ect. But if town and exe have both a "optimal" win/win strategy exe being a townie in exchange for a free target lynch near the end is generally going to be the way both town and exe would win most of the time
Exe is kind of in a weird spot because the crab mentality of playing exe like a pure evil means towns aren't going to really want a exe in their game, despite exe's vote being super powerful 10v5 is way way way easier to win then a 9v6 period.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:48 am

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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby FroggyMaybe » Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:53 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:6vs9 Playlist
-Compensate for leavers, the vast majority of which are evil
-Compensates for the unpowered Mafia roles and the overpowered Town roles
-Gives Mafia voting power to deal with half the town being confirmed by Day 2 or 3
-No room for Town to make an error
I do agree, the current rolelist is basically a game of chess, a race on who takes out the other teams' power and leading roles first. It should rather be a 10v5 with 5 RT Slots for more claimspace and Witch going off for a NE slot, or even an NK slot if you will. It would balance the Game better as its harder to coordinate what youre up against.

Instant Confirm for Town
-Jailor if claims D1, almost always instantly confirmed
True,i see Jailor as Currently being the "King Piece" Of the Town. Half of the "Silent Jailors" End up magically dying d2 anyway, so it is meta. Downside is the Whisper Spam.
-Veteran gets kills, instantly confirmed. No CCS possible
It is still a tradeoff of one Townie dying to confirm the other. Varies on the Dead Townie's Use.
-Lookout confirmed by synergy with Jailor, often confirms most TP/Escorts/Spies by Day 2
You can make a fake Lookout will just by seeing who whispers to Jailor early and who doesn't post as Sherrif/Inv. The Whisper Spam is the Downside of Jailor Meta.
-Lookout and Spy synergy to confirm Escorts
Dependant if there's a Spy in the Game. Other than that, Escorts are a Target Anyway, they take up the TS slot one way or another.
- Vigilantes dying after shooting town, gives Mafia no opportunity to cc the kill
The Vigi is Confirmed, But dead at the Same Time. This is only a downside if you're gonna claim Vet or if theres a Confirmed Second TK.
-Spy being able to confirm themselves with roleblocks etc on tp/lo, easy to find fake Spies
If you know what you're doing you can pull off a Spy Fake.
-Too many Unique roles (Retri) which makes ccing difficult or you claim a Unique role and get instantly cced
I Slightly Disagree, This is heavily RNG-Dependant. I Agree Vet Shouldnt Be Unique, But Ret is Fine as it it. 6 Rets would be chaos, essentially a Who-Gets-The-Corpse thing. They'd also verify eachother much easier than ret can verify itself now. Also, if youre point is about being CCd, Mayor doesn't really fit in with it. Why claim mayor anywhere that isnt Jail?

Witch
-Forces lynches on Vigi, Vet, Mafioso, Ambusher for no other reason then "there's witch need to lynch it"
-No reason to be in the game other then a counter for Vigilante
So every other role is witch-immune yes? Im fine with Witch, If youre Gonna give me a choice of either removing Witch or Exe off the list, id take exe off. Other Solution Mentioned at the Top.

Escort
-Evil based role, always has been in Mafia
-Mostly roleblocks town members or DEADLOCKS (another issue) the game
-Most Random Mafia roles are not powerful enough that a roleblock is enough to be detrimental
Witch can Prevent said Deadlock, and Escorts are a Common N2/N3 Target Anyway.

Executioner
-Boring role
-Lots of leavers
-Sometimes has impossible targets to lynch, especially with insta-confirm meta
I Agree Exe should be Switched. If we were to only switch exe, id switch it to a NB or NK Slot with the current list.

Jailor
-Overpowered
-Jailor sucks or makes a mistake = town losing
-All town should be equally contributing to the towns victory, not 1 person.
Roles will differ in power and it will always be like that. Other townies can contribute enough by giving Jailor Strong info they can use to cross evils out.

TP/LO
-Toxic gameplay
-Don't follow this and you get lynched or executed, almost guaranteed.
-Players who don't want to play this way, shouldn't be forced to
-Confirms too many roles by D2
The Current Meta is Strong, but the Counter is often a Boatload of whispers and you not knowing wich one of the 4 TP claims to execute first. Can be OP but also extremely frustrating for both Jailor and Town at times.

Vigilante
-Hard to shoot anyone
-Dying from making 1 mistake
-Dying from Witch forcing you to kill Town
-Get jailed, almost certain death with most Jailors
-Seems to be a higher chance of getting Jailed as well, seeing as Half the town (TPS, Invests) are almost some what confirmed early on
No Sane Jailor Ever Exes a Vigi Claim, Especially if the TS Slot is still TBD. Also, just learn to fucking claim TK on the Stand. I find Vigi OK as it is, It is the backing wheel for town if Jailor Loses his executes or Plays stupid and dies. I have had games with me blasting 3 bullets and shooting 3 Evils.

Balancing:'
All town members should be equally contributing to the Victory of the town. We should not have to rely on 1 overpowered role to do so.
Roles should be balanced to the sub-alignment that they belong in. Roles in TK should have their own strengths and weaknesses but should all have a similar power level. Same goes with Town Support, many roles that don't belong anywhere else dumped in Town Support.
Thats The Point of Town Support though. Also some roles will always be stronger than others, no changing that.

Town Killing

Veteran
-2 Alerts
-Not Unique
Agree with not unique. Disagree with 2 alerts. Good Enough as it is with 3.

Jailor
-2 Executes
-Delay in Jailing. Possibilities - (1) no jailing if there's a lynch (2) jailing only during odd nights (3) creating a jail cell to use
-No jailor protection from targeting (no more your target was jailed so you couldn't attack/invest/target them)
Just Because Jailor is OP, No need to nerf it down to the ground. i totally agree with 2 exes but the rest is an Arguement, semily. The Jailor Plays the Role to Lead the Town, therefore it is a unique role. There's no changing its position of lead unless you rework the role completely.

Vigilante
-3 Kills
-No Guilt
This would just make vig get used by witches WAY MORE, as youve complained above. The Guilt should be penalized not by shooting yourself, rather by just putting your gun away.

Town Protective

Doctor and Bodyguard are mostly balanced. Doctor can heal multiple times, Bodyguard sacrifices himself to take down an attacker. Don't even get me started with Trapper and Crusader
Trapper is balanced, Its a Juggernaut Version of Bodyguard. What do you mean? Trapper and crus arent even in Ranked aswell.
Bodyguard:
-Dies protecting your target but doesn't kill attackers if multiple attacks happen.
This removes the RNG element from role. Currently, if a Vigilante or Mafioso attack the same target that Bodyguard is defending, the Bodyguard will kill one of these players and the other player will successfully kill the target. Bodyguard should instead, absorb all the attacks, but be to overwhelmed to kill the attackers.
Id Rather get a Priority list for BG, honestly. This would make it an even easier fake-claim if witch knows what theyre doing.

Town Investigative

Sheriff should be the primary force that finds evildoers, but is useless most of the games. If there's a Disguiser in the game, then there's only 2/14 players that the Sheriff can find as Suspicious. Disguiser needs to be completely reworked. Killing roles and Factions should not have so much deception towards Sheriff. Sheriff is a very basic role, but should still be a threat. If other roles (like Jailor) were less overpowered, then the Mafia would actually use a night to kill a Sheriff. Currently, Sheriff is just a pathetic role for evils to claim or to give a sus target an excuse to play the Executioner card.
True, however a smart sherrif will still fiddle out those 2/3 out of 14, and if exe is dead/removed, Its easily a no-escape situation.

Investigator has an easier chance of finding evildoers. Investigators should be more about confirming somebodies claim. I would make the Investigative results more brood, perhaps this would be more achievable with more roles in the game. Frankly, its far to easy for Invest to find a Bodyguard, Godfather and be like oh ok this guy is most likely Godfather. Same goes for Vigi, Vet, Mafioso, Ambusher... it's almost always an instant lynch
BUT invests drawback is that evils also get that info. The BG/GF may end up being the last remaining Bodyguard and the Vig/vet/Maf/Amb may be a vigi the witch has free use to. i Agree it needs some result changes, but it isnt as OP of a role. The Real strategy to Invest is topost results to Jailor daily and just shut your mouth with them in public.


Sheriff - finds the evildoers and confirms if town.
-Alignment detection
-Your target is a member of the Mafia
-Your target is a Serial Killer
-Your target is a Werewolf
-Your target is not suspicious for Town, Neutral Benign, Arsonist
Old Sherrif, Essentially?

Investigators - narrows down the claims and discovers any fake claimers
-Rework of the entire investigative roster.
-More roles in the game for more fake claims.
-Not so many killing roles grouped together

Im fine with a lot of the roster, but some parts do need an essential Rework. Reminds me of the time Invest confused Transporter with Arsonist.

The Excessively marked text is my Opinion on some stuff, essentially.
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