Ranked is Unbalance

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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby Soulshade55r » Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:37 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Also I got an idea to buff sheriff

First: vampires no longer have detection immunity, there is legit no reason for this role to have it

Second: any role with detection immunity, except of GF and CL, lose it for the night if they kill someone

I think vampires expect the youngest should have detection immunity. But i don't care too much about vampires i don't play all any much and draclurs role list is bad.

I don't think roles should lose detection Immunity upon kills.

The actual issue is when sheriff can only find 1/2 of the evils, witch having detection immunity is a result of having to survive, Exe/jester having detection immunity is fair (but i dislike the way they're in ranked really). Godfather, Disguiser (giving dect immunity) and potentially Mafioso gaining the immunity is bad.

Personally if we ever get TMK (which will likely never happen). I'd like to see godfather/mafioso reworked in ways that GF isn't a detection immune role and that they also both fit into mafia without really *needing* both or even one. Disguiser being the sole counter to detection I think is a good thing as it leads to mafia actually having to strategies who they think will likely be checked ect.
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Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
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NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:46 pm

I think the consig buff should be discussed in the other thread (and the new role/crusader rework)
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Sat Feb 05, 2022 1:17 am

Neutral Evils should always be anti-town. EVIL, its literally in the name. Executioner and Jester need to move to Benign. Pirate should be moved to Neutral Evil with a rework and about 2-3 more roles that are as equally balanced, should be added.

What do you mean Consigliere be a daycop?

Retributionist the only way I can think to rework it, is to allow it to use all Town roles and be able to attempt to use all cleaned roles. If its a Neutral or Mafia it will fail. If the cleaned role is town, then the actions will be successful, but the Retributionist will be unaware of what the role was, unless they receive feedback for it.

Mafia Lookout is needed to stop Lookout from being instant-confirmed. But its not a solid counter to tp/lo. Besides from LO no longer being instantly confirmed, a lot of the town will still be confirmed by Day 2 or 3. The role would still have a low chance of occurring and even if it does, it is not that detrimental to tp/lo. TP/LO will still happen as it will still be the best way for a Town Leader to confirm all roles. Not all Visitors are guaranteed to be TP, so the Mafia still has to narrow down who TP is and kill them before they get a chance to kill the Jailor or Mayor.

I still really think a Mafia with a 1 shot day-kill with a confirmable town counter-part which is apart of Town Government would be a really good idea. I really don't see what the issue with 1 extra kill would be when we are talking about reducing how many evils are in the game anyway. It would be perfectly balanced in a GF/2RM/2Neutral setup with TMK implemented. If people aren't cool about having more Mafia killing roles, then I suppose it could be a Neutral Evil role, but it would need another abillity.

Ambusher is different because its RNG, can get multiple kills and has the issue of being instantly revealed

If people are committed to a game then I don't see them leaving because they've been audited. People in ranked still stay when they're alive because they have hope. But at least if you've been audited you can still lead the town and fully contribute to the game. Only staying audited until the Auditor dies is a good idea though.

having your role snatched away is more fun than dying" is only an argument if Vanillaizer was already a role that could kill. Yeah, being vanillaized is more fun than dying, but nobody's killing them so why should it be considered.

Getting killed isn't getting vanillized. Losing your role is 100% more fun then dying and watching until the game ends, so its still a valid argument. Neutral Evil roles are not meant to directly kill anyone, but are meant to have a detrimental effect on the town and revoking a players abilities is certainly detrimental, especially if you are a Power role. Most of the fun happens during the day anyway and most people don't have any active abilities during the day. The fun comes from discussion and making big brain plays.

You CAN contribute, but the game would likely be more boring and less desirable to play through.

Disagree, if you have purpose and are committed to the game you will still have fun. Auditing wouldn't be that common anyway and it should be under a Neutral Evil slot along with other balanced roles. Auditing would also be limited and certain TPS would be able to defend against it. As a Doctor or a Citizen its the difference between pushing 1 fancy button at night

I still don't see why we should have two roles that are INCREDIBLY similar in function when we could have each TPow be different to give each a distinct feel.

Variety, more investigative spots and more roles for the Town Government alignment. Marshall is perfectly balanced, so I don't see the problem

Jailor should have either equivalent or harsher guilt than Vigilante, and Vigilante should have guilt because normally, the Town has to agree (50% + 1 votes) on who to kill. If Vigilante can kill on their own, they should be punished for picking wrong, but I agree suicide is too much.

3 bullets, jailor guilt is the best way to go then. 2 executes for Jailor


Spies and Escorts go on Jailor now, so there's not much difference. It would make it easier for Mafia to find TP, which is a good thing.

It still would not reduce TP/LO meta as it would still be the best way for Town confirmability. If theres lots of spies/escorts/tp then Mafia still has to narrow down all the tp, before they have a chance to kill the Jailor and that could still take at least 2-3 nights. And its just one Mafia role, sure it reduces Lookout confirmability. But people will work out how to scum read against fake Lookouts. It also only has a very small chance of occurring seeing as there are only 2 RM spots and multiple other RM roles. The ability is not detrimental enough against Town Power roles. A day time Mafia killer or an Auditor would be a better way to deal with TP/LO. I can guarantee power roles will not be revealing on day 1 if there's a role that can snipe them instantly

Framer should last until Investigated with Sheriff/Investigator, but should also show the framed target as visiting the Mafia kill. Passive frames is bad. Disguiser shouldn't be so much of a hard-counter to Sheriffs. Id prefer the Disguiser being revealed as its targets role on death like it use to be, but with another ability as well (like redirecting targeting, with limited uses)

On Armoursmith being instantly confirmed tp. Mafia could always fake Armoursmith and one of their team mates could always claim to have received Armour. Early on in the game, most people are going to stay silent about receiving armour anyway, so its more effective. So an Armoursmith won't necessarily be confirmed until he gets voted up and someone confirms that they've received Armour. Obvious how much Armour he gives out should be limited to 3 or 4

The best Consigliere buff I've seen is them also being informed of how many of his targets roles are in the game. e.g. Investigate 5; Your target is a Bodyguard there is one other in the game.

Sheriff should be able to detect all proper Neutral Evils. Send Exe and Jester to NB. Arguably, Jester should appear suspicious. Disguiser shouldn't hard counter Sheriff. The only NK role which should be immune to detection is ARsonist, at least in the early game.

Proper Neutral Evil roles should have a 1 time use defense. I still believe if you die N1 as a Witch, suck it up and move onto another game. Neutral Benign shouldn't have defense at all, unless that's apart of their role (Survivor).
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:32 am

I wont reply cause I think that discussion is between kirize and traitorsofsalem

But as a note, jester SHOULD NOT, under any circumstances, in any game mode, lose their detection immunity, it already has a stupidly high wr and this means they get prized for being investigated when it should be the other way around
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby Soulshade55r » Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:52 pm

This should contain the response you wrote if I missed anything I apologies. (Kirize12)

It does not have a faction check, but it can chat with players for their roles. That's investigative, just because players CAN lie doesn't make it non-investigative, a Disguiser can claim Doctor when checked by an Invest that doesn't make Invest Town Support. And if you added my nerf, where Jailor cannot be protected while jailing, it would no longer be the optimal play to confirm itself as it will generally die.
Night chats will generally always be support to me because it's indirect Information, I don't see night chats as investigative why medium is classed as support But that's not the point really, I don't think Jailor should be a tp ontop of everything else it does. I guess if jailor can't be protected anyway that's already a major blow on Jailor which im fine with.

Mafia Lookout/Tracker can infer players roles/alignments from visits, which Consigliere does much slower but with more guarantee. It also is necessary to stop Lookout being autoconfirmed. Of course, it can watch non-mafia, but it does have the option to watch mafia - which no other role in the game has presently except maybe Ambusher? And would be a strong role even if confirmed town meta wasn't a thing. Don't get me wrong I think countering lookouts is a good thing the role is currently too confirmable, its not even a bad role design wise it's just really bad with how meta works, I just think mafia trackers/lookouts are too niche to be useful, at that point i see something like consigilere getting a nice buff, but i understand you might think it's a bit out of line or powerful if it had a day check and watch. (I personally don't, but i think all mafia should be very powerful, infomation is weaker for the mafia compared to town as you already know your allies so you need your information to be quick and good)

And yeah Retributionist is kinda lame, not as lame as Medium say but I still think it needs a rework. I think making it so Medium is something like this would work better, the only question is what to do with Retributionist:I think retri is actually more balanced then most roles at least for TOS standards but it does struggle with issues when the graveyard is lacking and the current ranked. (Epically that some games are solved super early)



Spoiler: [spoiler]Medium

Alignment: Town Support

Defense: Basic* | Attack: None

*Basic Defense autovest. Will stop Mafia, SK, Vigilante, Basic Attack Coven roles (no idea which) and Crusader - nothing else

Abilities:
Connect a player to the spirit network at night.

Attributes:
The connection does not take place that night.
You may have up to three players in the network at once, both living and dead: otherwise, your least recently connected target is disconnected.
If anyone in your network dies, they will be added to a group chat with you and others like them and be able to carry out their night actions through you for as long as you are alive.
You may only carry out a single action per night.
The first night you are attacked, you will predict it and hide, giving you Basic Defense. (an autovest is effectively the same as a seance but with counterplay and provides a town-sided explanation for immunity. goes without saying medium no longer has a seance)

Special Attributes:
Connection is astral
Town Power/Jailor cannot be connected
Dead chats cannot be copy pasted
A player can only be connected to a single network. If another medium visits after they were connected, their ability will fail and will (not?) be informed. (It’d be cool for DD, also known as hypno, to fake, but not necessary) If multiple mediums target on the same night, all fail, they aren’t allowed to share
If a player leaves, and is connected, the Medium can still use their powers, but obviously cannot talk to them.

How this role works:
Alex is the Medium. Alex targets Wave. Wave dies. Nothing happens.
Next night, Alex targets Cob. Cob is lynched the next day, is Sheriff.
Next night, Alex targets Metrion and Cob targets Jim. Alex receives a “Guilty” result
Next night, Metrion is killed, flips Doctor.
Night after that, Cob and Metrion discuss with Alex whether it’s better to have Alex use Sheriff or Doctor powers.

Pros:
Easily fakeclaimable
Allows for multiple claims; you can now feasibly be a Sheriff and Doctor
Can create a “masonry” that doesn’t confirm living town members
Cannot be confirmed, even with other mediums - solving an issue current Medium has while still keeping deadchat
Death-flip manipulation makes it awesome as dead evils can be connected and trick Medium into using their action
Fixes “reliance” on dead players staying until the end of the game I think I'm alright with this if dead players are informed they're apart of the mediums chat once dead. Also i dislike town autovests they're unfair to play against, people generally complain that if medium "dies n1" they're not going to be useful, But a lot of roles are like that, Vigi, Vet, Mayor, ALL Ti's (if no med)


(Not a response to me)
Retributionist I think should revert back to classic BUT with changes. Reviving is a gratifying mechanic which is fun to play, and I don't think it can't be balanced - but it would require my Medium rework alongside a change to make it more skillful than click a button.
I disagree wholeheartly reviving was the most blandest mechanic that ALWAYS was on a important role such as Jailor or Town Protective, even if it was made into a town Power or not able to revive Jailors/Mayors It would still be one of the most poorly designed roles in the game. I dislike forced dead interaction where people have to stay in games "just in case" theirs a retri. Retri would need to be reworked entirely.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby SilverCruz » Sun Feb 06, 2022 4:20 am

Ah yes, that game that nobody asked for or wanted, which will be a live service maintained by an average of two developers.

Also regarding Medium, I'd honestly just say turn it into an Investigative role. Remove dead chat interactions, remove seance, instead it now checks dead players to receive a History, that being an auto-generated/canned Last Will that accurately tracks what the player was doing during the game, up to and including the results they got (if any) of the night they got knocked out. Histories cannot be received from Neutral or Mafia roles, but the Medium can still attempt to fetch one from them, as well as from cleaned players, and will receive a History if their true role is co-aligned (I.E. Jailor quits Day 1, Forger forges Jailor as Godfather, Medium checks the "Godfather" Night 2 because the Mafia's actual target lived for some reason, Medium receives a History that exposes the forgery, or Medium tries to check a Cleaned role and either receives a History, confirming what it was, or does not which confirms that either it's a Neutral or something funny must have happened relating to a Janitor). Throw in Roleblock Immunity and Control Immunity to reflect the fact that the current Medium is technically immune to both on account of its ability preceding them both, and good to go.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby Soulshade55r » Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:51 pm

Kirize12 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:Personally if we ever get TMK (which will likely never happen). I'd like to see godfather/mafioso reworked in ways that GF isn't a detection immune role


Godfather's core function is to be the hardest role to find/kill. Basic Defense and Detection Immunity are a must regardless of anything else.

Also, we already have TMK, just not in TOS.

But are they are or you just saying that? You don't have to keep a concept of a role if it doesn't fit the current state of the game.
The role gimmick of being detection and night immune mafioso is situational and not a actual "core function" Godfather isn't a interesting way of actually making sheriff checks not 100% because it requires no good timing or skill on the godfathers part Unlike the prediction that the disguiser gives, Also I'm not saying disguisers only duty should be to hide mafia but I believe disguisers approach to faction hiding is much more skilful and less bland. Godfather is also plainly ONLY a sheriff counter hide which again screwing over one role for no reason that's not even powerful.

You really don't need to keep the "core" of a current role if it doesn't fit the game in it's current state or in a new state you would be suggesting. I Don't think the idea of keeping the "core" of a role is espically if people were to rework mafia in a major way.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:32 pm

Response to Silver

Spoiler:
SilverCruz wrote:Ah yes, that game that nobody asked for or wanted, which will be a live service maintained by an average of two developers.

Also regarding Medium, I'd honestly just say turn it into an Investigative role. Remove dead chat interactions, remove seance, instead it now checks dead players to receive a History, that being an auto-generated/canned Last Will that accurately tracks what the player was doing during the game, up to and including the results they got (if any) of the night they got knocked out. Histories cannot be received from Neutral or Mafia roles, but the Medium can still attempt to fetch one from them, as well as from cleaned players, and will receive a History if their true role is co-aligned (I.E. Jailor quits Day 1, Forger forges Jailor as Godfather, Medium checks the "Godfather" Night 2 because the Mafia's actual target lived for some reason, Medium receives a History that exposes the forgery, or Medium tries to check a Cleaned role and either receives a History, confirming what it was, or does not which confirms that either it's a Neutral or something funny must have happened relating to a Janitor). Throw in Roleblock Immunity and Control Immunity to reflect the fact that the current Medium is technically immune to both on account of its ability preceding them both, and good to go.



Remove dead chat interactions and senancing yes, as dead chat is not reliable outside of ranked and people shouldn't have to stay and commit to a game when they've died. An Entire history of what that player was doing is far too much information though. It should be like I suggested an Investigative role that can check any dead player and receive all feedback and notifications for the night that the player died. And find out that players true role. So a Coroner, I see no reason why it shouldn't be able to check non-town roles.


Response to Soul

Spoiler:
But are they are or you just saying that? You don't have to keep a concept of a role if it doesn't fit the current state of the game.
The role gimmick of being detection and night immune mafioso is situational and not a actual "core function" Godfather isn't a interesting way of actually making sheriff checks not 100% because it requires no good timing or skill on the godfathers part Unlike the prediction that the disguiser gives, Also I'm not saying disguisers only duty should be to hide mafia but I believe disguisers approach to faction hiding is much more skilful and less bland. Godfather is also plainly ONLY a sheriff counter hide which again screwing over one role for no reason that's not even powerful.

You really don't need to keep the "core" of a current role if it doesn't fit the game in it's current state or in a new state you would be suggesting. I Don't think the idea of keeping the "core" of a role is espically if people were to rework mafia in a major way.


I agree that Godfather doesn't need its detection immunity and defense. Sheriff needs to be buffed as its currently far weaker than Investigator and it should be the primary role for confirming if someone is evil or not. Reducing Town Confirmability which is the main point of this thread, will mean Sheriff has far more people that he can choose to Investigate, so the role will certainly need a buff. Only Neutral Killings should only have any sort of defense, unless its limited


Response to Krizie (incoming)
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby Soulshade55r » Sun Feb 06, 2022 11:43 pm

Spoiler:
TheTraitorofSalem wrote:Response to Silver
SilverCruz wrote:Ah yes, that game that nobody asked for or wanted, which will be a live service maintained by an average of two developers.

Also regarding Medium, I'd honestly just say turn it into an Investigative role. Remove dead chat interactions, remove seance, instead it now checks dead players to receive a History, that being an auto-generated/canned Last Will that accurately tracks what the player was doing during the game, up to and including the results they got (if any) of the night they got knocked out. Histories cannot be received from Neutral or Mafia roles, but the Medium can still attempt to fetch one from them, as well as from cleaned players, and will receive a History if their true role is co-aligned (I.E. Jailor quits Day 1, Forger forges Jailor as Godfather, Medium checks the "Godfather" Night 2 because the Mafia's actual target lived for some reason, Medium receives a History that exposes the forgery, or Medium tries to check a Cleaned role and either receives a History, confirming what it was, or does not which confirms that either it's a Neutral or something funny must have happened relating to a Janitor). Throw in Roleblock Immunity and Control Immunity to reflect the fact that the current Medium is technically immune to both on account of its ability preceding them both, and good to go.



Remove dead chat interactions and senancing yes, as dead chat is not reliable outside of ranked and people shouldn't have to stay and commit to a game when they've died. An Entire history of what that player was doing is far too much information though. It should be like I suggested an Investigative role that can check any dead player and receive all feedback and notifications for the night that the player died. And find out that players true role. So a Coroner, I see no reason why it shouldn't be able to check non-town roles.

Response to Soul

Spoiler:
But are they are or you just saying that? You don't have to keep a concept of a role if it doesn't fit the current state of the game.
The role gimmick of being detection and night immune mafioso is situational and not a actual "core function" Godfather isn't a interesting way of actually making sheriff checks not 100% because it requires no good timing or skill on the godfathers part Unlike the prediction that the disguiser gives, Also I'm not saying disguisers only duty should be to hide mafia but I believe disguisers approach to faction hiding is much more skilful and less bland. Godfather is also plainly ONLY a sheriff counter hide which again screwing over one role for no reason that's not even powerful.

You really don't need to keep the "core" of a current role if it doesn't fit the game in it's current state or in a new state you would be suggesting. I Don't think the idea of keeping the "core" of a role is espically if people were to rework mafia in a major way.


I agree that Godfather doesn't need its detection immunity and defense. Sheriff needs to be buffed as its currently far weaker than Investigator and it should be the primary role for confirming if someone is evil or not. Reducing Town Confirmability which is the main point of this thread, will mean Sheriff has far more people that he can choose to Investigate, so the role will certainly need a buff. Only Neutral Killings should only have any sort of defense, unless its limited


Response to Krizie (incoming)


Something like Disugiser can make faction checks always not 100% I don't think sheriff needs changing directly it's a good role when 1/2 of the evils in ranked are detection immune + Possible Disguiser (Assuming Spy doesn't exist). Makes it hard for sheriff the actually find Anything.

Something like Disguiser would need to be unique (Which some mafia such as Bmer should also follow).

Neutral evils such as witch being detection immune can't be "fixed" unless you removed it's survivor wincon (which has no impact on how the actual game plays but be seem to dislike higher win rate & it might be very easy in all any).

Roles such as Jester should always show up as Innocent, Executioner I'd say should show up as suspicous but as they turn into jester i don't think that's fair.

At least Fixing the detection Immunity a bit should make sheriff into the solid Ti with more solid infomation but a easier claim should be how sheriff is balanced compared to the other Ti's (All ti's should be pretty simple to claim roles such as reworked Consigilere or a new mafia LO should have the ability to easily fake LO). Spies design is awful and is the only Ti who needs a total rework. Investigator Is fine, My biggest issue is such results as Sheriff/Exe (No Werewolf). I believe all results should contain one mafia inside the bracket. (I disagree with a total rework like checking someone one night then the second night for full role such as BMG did).
Ti isn't too hard to balance (Ignoring Psychic + I wish tracker was apart of classic :/.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:23 pm

Executioner and Jester are more complicated than just being moved to Benign though, and Pirate should definitely NOT be NE considering it's already NC. Disagree they are primarily benign roles as they have no quarrel with anyone and couldn't care who wins. Remove night time immunity from Executioner though

Retributionist I think should revert back to classic BUT with changes. Reviving is a gratifying mechanic which is fun to play, and I don't think it can't be balanced - but it would require my Medium rework alongside a change to make it more skillful than click a button.
Sure it can be balanced as apart of the apporiate allignment,

Most of the confirmability stems from massclaims and the Ranked role list, which can be fixed by modifying the rolelist (which arguably should happen before ANY balance changes).

Fixing the role list won't do a lot and a Town Government role will still always ask for tp/lo even with a possible Lookout. Auditor and a non-town 1-shot day kill is what we need.

While all of those are true, it still violates the core mechanic of Mafia only getting a single, factional kill per night. The only way I could see a daykill being possible is if it meant Mafia could not kill the next night, and I'm not a fan of that mechanic.
How is that a core mechanic?


That's the only way I could see Auditor being added. It would still be a hard sell to TG though.
I highly disagree with all the reworks and new roles that the TG supports, as they're suggesting nothing to fix this game as they all love their almighty Jailor.


Actually, it isn't more fun, because players who have died can leave and play a different game. Players who lost their roles have to participate in the day without any abilities - and while I do love Citizens, this game isn't the place for that. Trust me, this argument has been had before (I was a big proponent of adding Citizens in 2016
But they can't play a leave a new game because of Medium and if Retri were reverted to classic. Once you're dead, you should not have to participate at all and should be free to leave.


Marshall is perfectly balanced on paper. In practice, let's say the Town Government lineup is Jailor, Mayor, and Marshall. You have 1/3 odds of getting a game with a JOAT and 2/3 odds of a Public Leader. It'd be like adding a role called Detective that has a different investigative list (but otherwise functions exactly like Investigator) to Town Investigative, technically the roles are different as they use different lists but it still skews the odds and makes games more repetitive.

I think if we need to have Marshall in the game, it should be an alternative command for Mayor - when Mayor reveals, it can choose between Political Power and Martial Law. Political Power is Mayor we know and love, Martial Law is Mayor having an anonymous second vote and three lynches in the day they reveal without revealing Mayor. Not a fan of this really but it is a solution IF we need Marshall.

It's perfectly balanced, so why should it not exist. It would be a fun and enjoyable role to play. One of the reasons this game is dying is because of the lack of updates, more roles = update. And Jailor should not be Town Government, it should be nerfed to Town Killing. So 100% odds of becoming a Public Leader. The only other role that would fit there with Marshall and Mayor, would be a day-killer whos revealed when he shoots.

Also claiming Mayor as Mafia or NE when Jailed is a pro-strat when evils have the advantage and you know any other claim will get you executed. Even more of a pro play for the Jailors who can see through this and make the execute anyway. This will not be possible with your current scenario



They could, but a confirmed townie could ask you to visit them to reveal you. And if you're NK, you're screwed. I also don't agree with a limited use TP, or TI.

We're reducing town confirambility, so people shouldn't be confirmed early on in the first place. If you've played SC2Mafia, armorsmith is definitely not a confirmable role and there are many easy ways to fake it.

I'm confused, isn't Witch a Proper Neutral Evil? It's the original, and currently only, Proper Neutral Evil in Town of Salem really.

True. I meant like a 1-time use vest that you have to activate. Witch should lose some sort of immunity though. IMO it should keep deception immunity but lose its night time defense. You get unlucky and die N1, suck it up and join another game.

And to reduce town confirmability, targets should no longer know that they are Witched. Players will still receive feedback but it will be on whoever they were Witched on.
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:23 am

Jester needs reworks in the form its in, all moving it to Benign would do is stop it from spawning in Evil. Also, Executioner does have a quarrel with a Town member, that makes it automatically scum sided. The best solution I've seen to those roles is making them Traitor Roles (see alex1234321's thread). Witch has "detection immunity" because town doesn't need to kill the Witch to win. A lone Arsonist, or lone Mafia member, needs to be found and killed before the game can be concluded. A lone Witch just loses unless Vigilante exists (and even then, once Witch forces Vigilante to shoot a Town member, the game ends in a Town victory). Since Witch isn't technically a threat to the Town, Sheriff shouldn't have to find it.

Executioner can still win with the town, Jester would be absolutely fine spawning only in Benign, as its not appropriate as evil. As Neutral Evils should be able to contribute to the victory of an evil factions win conditions.

The game should not end at all if there is a Witch alive. Witch should always win in a 1v1 tie against town. And a Witch (and future NES that get added) should have a chance to win by mislynching. Lynching a Vigilante for the sole purpose of "ending the game" is a horrible mechanic, the game should just end anyway as the Witch has no chance of winning. But I'd rather the Town actually still have to kill the Witch. And lynching Vigilante so Witch cannot use it, should be considered game throwning.


You have given no reasons for removing Witch's autoshield besides "suck it up and join another game". Mafia doesn't want to kill Witch. That's why autovest exist - a failed kill is by far less damaging than a crosskill. It buffs evils and buffs Witch. Do you not like buffed evils or Witch?
A failed kill is a fail kill, shit happens. As Mafia, accept the fail and move on and try to win. As Witch, leave and join another game.

Witch's notification is a core mechanic, and allows it to meaningfully interact with the game. It also buffs Hypnotist.

It is not a core mechanic just because you say it is. Removing the notification would be far more balanced and would reduce town confirmability. Investigative results will no longer be 100% certain if there's a possible Witch in the game

Also, How does it buff hypnotist? I've never seen the extra Witch manipulation notification be useful


t's literally Mayor with a different ability. What you're suggesting is like adding Detective, which is an Investigator with a different list. Marshall isn't particularly fun or enjoyable either considering it becomes a Citizen once it uses its ability. Also, Jailor will ALWAYS be too confirmable for Town Killing and means TK will become unclaimable. That is not a good thing, and is undesirable for claimspace.

A strategy that has an 80% chance of backfiring isn't something I'd call a pro-strat by any means. And if taking that strategy away is the one and only downside of having Town Government and making it so Mayor and Jailor can't spawn together, that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make because holy crap Mayor-Jailor combos are OP.

Completely different ability. 2 trials, 2 lynches per trial is the most balanced way to go, so it still has another use after revealing. It's a useful ability and Marshall will still have be able to lead the town after using his trials up. Marshall shouldn't be surviving much longer then that though. You get domiance and control over the town and this will most likely be one of the most popular roles to play as. Becoming a Citizen after using his ability is irrelevant when the ability is a lot more fun then other abilities. Vigilante becomes a Citizen once it uses its ability.

Executing a fake Mayor claim often happens in Diamond and above. Claiming Mayor is certainly a very good Strat if too many other town roles are confirmed and all you need is an extra night for majority. The pro Jailors in higher ranks can see through this though.

Jailor and Mayor combo is opp in the current game. Nerf Jailor to TK. The point of this thread is to reduce confirmability. Jailor should not always exist and people should be able to fake claim it, even with a real Jailor in the game.

Bodyguard • Bus Driver • Caroler (this was not here before, and may be a fake role) • Citizen • Coroner • Crier • Detective • Doctor • Escort • Investigator • Jailor • Lookout • Marshall • Mason • Mason Leader • Mayor • Sheriff • Spy • Stump • Veteran

I've played this game a lot in the last couple of weeks. It 100% exists along with about 12 other roles that have recently been added. I believe the wiki hasn't been updated in awhile. Also, Caroler is a slightly more balanced Physic that gives 3 possible evil names to its target, rather then just receiving them himself.

The Town and Mafia kill at the exact same rate - one kill per day/night. Town has additional killing roles because the Mafia can manipulate those roles into killing their own faction. Since Town can't do the same to Mafia, Mafia should only get a single factional kill per night. Mafia's strength lies in deception mixed with moderate kill power.

Moderate kill power, so implement TMK and have a Mafia killing alignment (no mafioso, gf) where only 1 can spawn. Day time assassin, old disguiser from SC2, Ambusher reworked.
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:52 am

It buffs evils and buffs Witch. Do you not like buffed evils or Witch?


Evils need to be buffed by nerfing the towns confirmability. A couple of RM roles need reworks and buffs. But screwing Sheriffs and Vigilantes over is not the way to buff evils
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:20 pm

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=119393 balancing for roles
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Fri Apr 22, 2022 1:31 am

bump thias
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Fri Apr 22, 2022 7:44 am

Tbh I dont know what I can add rn
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:29 am

Lets try fix ranked again
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby Soulshade55r » Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:39 pm

hey so im planning on making a megathread at somepoint on how we can ideally fix ranked for a 5v10 format.

6V9 has always been TOO SCUM SIDED. But theirs so much easy confirmability that the absurdly mafia sided setup of 6v9 is actually somewhat balanced? but not in a good way because the game is about how fast town can confirm people and sus out fake claims, any mistakes from either faction can lead to a auto loss. I really want to make some ideas that would actually make ranked fun to play but yeah.

In a nutshell:
TMK, Maf LO, Spy Reworked, Transporter no self trans, Vigilante guilt, Less uniques (Vet/Ret, id say we could change vet a bit and nerf it? vets a weird role to balance imo, Retri should have a day ability to become a role for the night, they can't target the same player, but they can use more stuff like a Transporter ect.) buffs to a lot of RM, ways to counter Jailor, Jailor nerfs, Jailor & Mayor "Town Power" only spawning once, Mayor buffs to aling with jailor, Mafioso/GF reworked because of TMK, List goes on and on but we need a lot of changes to effect townies that make auto ez confirms hard.
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Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby PatrykSzczescie » Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:51 am

Comparing to previous ranked rolelists, I think the current one has been the most balanced one so far.

The previous ones were strongly town-sided. Mafia and neutrals were forced to co-operate with each other to meet their win conditions which wasn't easy with competent town. When evils jumped on each other, sometimes unintentionally, town mistakes were even more forgiving. Moreover, town was sometimes given won games on a plate by evils this way. Evil factions didn't have such free wins. NK has always been the hardest role to win because of a single member against everybody else. Most of NK wins were pity wins - getting into 1v1v1 situation where 100% winning (NE) or 100% losing (mostly town) living player just hands NK a win.

The current rolelist is balanced between factions - when I roll town, I am less certain of a win and even as mafia I have to try not to lose the game. The roles are set the way that no one is in 100% loss situation for being targeted N1 such as starting jester. There's less RNG in the game where you happen to see evils kill each other. The existence of both witch and exe in the game is a good nerf to jailor meta, massclaiming strategy and guilty push - you can still pull out these strategies but they're as viable as the opposite to them (silent jailor, no claim, don't lynch early) though the most optimal strategy is finding the middle ground.

There's no certain overpowered strategy that works every game. You have to adjust your decisions to how the game goes, not only based on your role. Trans can protect jailor/vig from the witch one of those can claim for trans protection. Evils outing in 6v6 situation is risky due to some town roles capable of regaining majority when a few of them make the right decisions at once. Vig fakeclaiming another town role is one whole double-edged strategy.

Role confirmability is not balanced but I don't think they need to be. Every game there can be some confirmed town roles but it's part of the game. The mafia is supposed to mess up with confirmations. LO and spy combo can be strong confirming 5 players as town during a single night but mafia always has a visiting role that can decrease the amount of confirmed players. LO role is easy to confirm but mafia can also fake visits after discussing a strategy during the night and disguiser can incriminate LO by showing a fake visit. Even jailor can be cc'd where mafs back up their partner's claim and getting jailor lynched can be a winning move for evils. As an evil, you just have to work out with confirmed roles and adjust your strategy to end up with you winning.

I'm fine with no TMK. Sacrificing GF or mafioso is usually a bad strategy and the remaining evils should protect their killing mafs from being exposed. Most of games where I see the only killing mafia being blocked is when the killing mafia makes a bad claim such as BG or TK. If this happens though, the witch can force execute or hypno can fake an attack.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that neutrals need some appeal though.

Exe is a neutral role. There can be games 9v6 but there also can be 10v5 or the exe can try something different. However, most of games exe sides mafia. One of reasons is the mutual win condition which makes co-operation easier to pull off. Especially when exe target is confirmed townie there's no other choice - which kind of balances the game between factions: town gets a confirmed member which in result enforces 9v6. But even in other scenarios where exe wins without any help, there's a popular meta that exe helps maf win regardless. It's because of the old ranked where exe had to very often rely on other evils to meet the win condition or the evils were given pity wins due to them being a difficult faction. Even though this no longer applies to the current ranked, players got used to the meta where exe simply sides evil. The thing is that if people somehow forget about how the old ranked worked, the exe would be more of a wild card and there you have 9v5 with exe interfering. Same applies to jester.

Witch is a good role but has one flaw in the win condition - has to survive. This discourages from making some ballsy strategies with intention to sacrifice the witch to kill more townies or let maf gain a lot of information such as totally risky claims solely to spread chaos like cc'ing jailor or random guilties every day. It would be more fun to play a witch if the only thing I was required to do was to make town lose so I could pull off such plays. It doesn't help that town targets the witch, once to gain more advantage than if they attempted to kill a maf, another time when they just want to simply make the witch lose whenever possible as the town loses too. This even requires jester and witch to trust each other in a situation with 2 mafs left, that the jester won't haunt the witch considering that the losing town doesn't want to make the neutrals win.
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby Soulshade55r » Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:54 am

PatrykSzczescie wrote:Comparing to previous ranked rolelists, I think the current one has been the most balanced one so far.

The previous ones were strongly town-sided. Mafia and neutrals were forced to co-operate with each other to meet their win conditions which wasn't easy with competent town. When evils jumped on each other, sometimes unintentionally, town mistakes were even more forgiving. Moreover, town was sometimes given won games on a plate by evils this way. Evil factions didn't have such free wins. NK has always been the hardest role to win because of a single member against everybody else. Most of NK wins were pity wins - getting into 1v1v1 situation where 100% winning (NE) or 100% losing (mostly town) living player just hands NK a win.

The current rolelist is balanced between factions - when I roll town, I am less certain of a win and even as mafia I have to try not to lose the game. The roles are set the way that no one is in 100% loss situation for being targeted N1 such as starting jester. There's less RNG in the game where you happen to see evils kill each other. The existence of both witch and exe in the game is a good nerf to jailor meta, massclaiming strategy and guilty push - you can still pull out these strategies but they're as viable as the opposite to them (silent jailor, no claim, don't lynch early) though the most optimal strategy is finding the middle ground.

There's no certain overpowered strategy that works every game. You have to adjust your decisions to how the game goes, not only based on your role. Trans can protect jailor/vig from the witch one of those can claim for trans protection. Evils outing in 6v6 situation is risky due to some town roles capable of regaining majority when a few of them make the right decisions at once. Vig fakeclaiming another town role is one whole double-edged strategy.

Role confirmability is not balanced but I don't think they need to be. Every game there can be some confirmed town roles but it's part of the game. The mafia is supposed to mess up with confirmations. LO and spy combo can be strong confirming 5 players as town during a single night but mafia always has a visiting role that can decrease the amount of confirmed players. LO role is easy to confirm but mafia can also fake visits after discussing a strategy during the night and disguiser can incriminate LO by showing a fake visit. Even jailor can be cc'd where mafs back up their partner's claim and getting jailor lynched can be a winning move for evils. As an evil, you just have to work out with confirmed roles and adjust your strategy to end up with you winning.

I'm fine with no TMK. Sacrificing GF or mafioso is usually a bad strategy and the remaining evils should protect their killing mafs from being exposed. Most of games where I see the only killing mafia being blocked is when the killing mafia makes a bad claim such as BG or TK. If this happens though, the witch can force execute or hypno can fake an attack.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that neutrals need some appeal though.

Exe is a neutral role. There can be games 9v6 but there also can be 10v5 or the exe can try something different. However, most of games exe sides mafia. One of reasons is the mutual win condition which makes co-operation easier to pull off. Especially when exe target is confirmed townie there's no other choice - which kind of balances the game between factions: town gets a confirmed member which in result enforces 9v6. But even in other scenarios where exe wins without any help, there's a popular meta that exe helps maf win regardless. It's because of the old ranked where exe had to very often rely on other evils to meet the win condition or the evils were given pity wins due to them being a difficult faction. Even though this no longer applies to the current ranked, players got used to the meta where exe simply sides evil. The thing is that if people somehow forget about how the old ranked worked, the exe would be more of a wild card and there you have 9v5 with exe interfering. Same applies to jester.

Witch is a good role but has one flaw in the win condition - has to survive. This discourages from making some ballsy strategies with intention to sacrifice the witch to kill more townies or let maf gain a lot of information such as totally risky claims solely to spread chaos like cc'ing jailor or random guilties every day. It would be more fun to play a witch if the only thing I was required to do was to make town lose so I could pull off such plays. It doesn't help that town targets the witch, once to gain more advantage than if they attempted to kill a maf, another time when they just want simply make the witch lose whenever possible as the town loses too. This even requires jester and witch to trust each other in a situation with 2 mafs left, that the jester won't haunt the witch considering that the losing town doesn't want to make the neutrals win.


I think this role list is the most balanced, but that being said its not balanced in a fun way, ranked generally is determined by a lot of RNG factors, some player skill of course but i feel like the game should be more directed to a 5v10 with major town nerfs.

Silent jailors normally lose the game from my POV, at least from the ranked games ive been playing, outing as Jailor D1 is always a good bet even with witch.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
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NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby PatrykSzczescie » Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:40 am

Yeah, kind of old ranked was less balanced but more fun due to how unpredictable that could be. Either chilling out as town or getting some challenge as evil.
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby Soulshade55r » Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:01 pm

PatrykSzczescie wrote:Yeah, kind of old ranked was less balanced but more fun due to how unpredictable that could be. Either chilling out as town or getting some challenge as evil.


Old ranked was more Healthy but not more balanced. I'm not a fan of either, We need to make ranked a environment less about clicking buttons on a role to confirm and getting lucky or unlucky and more about social deduction.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:31 pm

Im working on small changes to a lot of roles

I will make a post about it soon
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:41 pm

There shouldn't be only 1 ranked playlist. If this game was balanced, the devs wouldn't be struggling so much with trying to get the perfect ranked set-up. There really should be 5 or so possible set-ups that can roll in ranked. EpicMafia was balanced and had multiple set-ups. Starcraft II was very similar to this, but there were hundreds of ranked like set-ups that were created. It wouldn't be hard to do. Less town confirmability, jailor counters and more claim space are things that are needed to make ranked balance.

People also want more of a competitve game. I know theres a few of the outspoken miniorty on this forum that like TOS more casual style. But competitive games are becoming more popular. People like a challenge, people like to be rewarded for being good (the ranked system sucks in this game), people actually want to use deception and scum read properly.
Last edited by TheTraitorofSalem on Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:33 am

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:There shouldn't be only 1 ranked playlist. If this game wasn't balanced, the devs wouldn't be struggling so much with trying to get the perfect ranked set-up. There really should be 5 or so possible set-ups that can roll in ranked. EpicMafia was balanced and had multiple set-ups. Starcraft II was very similar to this, but there were hundreds of ranked like set-ups that were created. It wouldn't be hard to do. Less town confirmability, jailor counters and more claim space are things that are needed to make ranked balance.

People also want more of a competitve game. I know theres a few of the outspoken miniorty on this forum that like TOS more casual style. But competitive games are becoming more popular. People like a challenge, people like to be rewarded for being good (the ranked system sucks in this game), people actually want to use deception and scum read properly.


I can kinda agree, while i dont think its the best balance choice to have a different role list but it sure as hell makes ranked dry rn.
Heck i even want Neutral benign and Killing back sometimes because you can only get them in all any now. I find all any fine but its not a game mode with structure and i enjoy structure.
Elo needs somewhat of a rework, I feel like its not really a good system currently feels too random..
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Mafia: Consort
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Re: Ranked is Unbalance

Postby Algus » Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:26 am

i prefer old ranked list, always have

not a fan of the any allowing for vampires but aside from that

mafia should be limited to 1 mafia deception imo. would guarantee second rm is either consort/amb/bm/consig (which are better roles than say a second janitor/framer/disguiser etc)


the exe serves a pretty relevant purpose, it makes it so sheriffs arent 100% trustable day 2 lets say

the forums have only ever made good roles bad and fun roles suck so i wont ever condone another role rework. its not once ended well
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