New ranked sucks.

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Re: New ranked sucks.

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Wed May 12, 2021 9:30 pm

Jakinator178 wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:And here we have "bring NK back" thread number 456787654345678765434567876543456789

The presence of a NK slot detracts from the Mafia winrate far more than it does from the Town winrate


Having 4 mafia roles and a GUARANTEED WITCH detracts from town winrate FAR MORE than NK detracting from mafia win rate!

You don't kill an evil by night 3 in standard ranked your team is as good as dead.


Town winrate its still sighly higher than mafia winrate, I can understand (altho not agree) why people dont like this list or want NK back, but a lot of the arguments simply show pure hypocrecy

S4: town wins too much! (Win rate was like 7 town, 2 mafia; 1 NK)

S5; mafia wins too much! (Win rate is now almost a 60/40)

NK added way too much chaos and swing to games, rampages are super swingy, passive douses are objectively broken
Even SK, who is the less swingy NK caused games to depend way too much on who they killed n1
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Re: New ranked sucks.

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed May 12, 2021 9:47 pm

I think the actual problem is new ranked is too punishing for both factions, games shouldn't be over by d2 is you mislynch but that is still more then possible, with the way mafia/evils play if generally 1 or 2 die eailer the in game is heavily town sided.

That's the problem with a 9v6 setup imo.

Something more balanced and fun would be a 10v5 without power roles (Jailor/Mayor)

Also a general mafia factional kill instead of mafioso/gf
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Re: New ranked sucks.

Postby SilverCruz » Wed May 12, 2021 11:46 pm

I want to point out that it's not really possible to divorce luck from this game. Random roles are required to keep claim space open and prevent predictability (having a static Witch and Executioner is still a mistake), but as long as you have random roles you're going to have situations where one side gets screwed by the RNG. Let's have an hypothetical example.

Town Investigative 1 is a Spy
Town Investigative 2 is a Lookout
Random Town 1 is a Medium
Random Town 2 is a Doctor
Random Town 3 is a Vigilante
Random Mafia 1 is a Framer
Random Mafia 2 is a Hypnotist

I'd definitely call that an unfair role list. The Framer is a Mafia Civilian at best and a liability at worst because neither of the Roles that are affected by its Frame exist in the round, so it's just a vehicle for the Spy to check off names if it even tries to do anything. The Hypnotist likewise will be at major risk of getting identified by Day 3 if it doesn't idle, nevermind how it's already very capable of exposing itself without help through conflicting feedback (it needs to either terminate its visit if it would cause conflicting feedback or destroy its target's feedback when using a Roleblocked or Controlled Hypnosis, though a third thing that just came to mind would be letting it use Transported on two different targets in a single night). This is a problem with role imbalance in the game, as the Mafia with those Town roles would be in an objectively better position if they had a Janitor and Blackmailer instead of a Framer and Hypnotist because Janitor and Blackmailer are always capable of doing something useful (destroying evidence and gaining or suppressing information), rather than being contingent on Town roles that are not guaranteed to even exist (Jailor is the only role where a direct hard counter would be valid, though just taking away its roleblock when not executing would be better) or just being bad at staying unknown.

There's more to it than that, of course, but that is part of the problem.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: New ranked sucks.

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu May 13, 2021 7:08 am

Soulshade55r wrote:I think the actual problem is new ranked is too punishing for both factions, games shouldn't be over by d2 is you mislynch but that is still more then possible, with the way mafia/evils play if generally 1 or 2 die eailer the in game is heavily town sided.

That's the problem with a 9v6 setup imo.

Something more balanced and fun would be a 10v5 without power roles (Jailor/Mayor)

Also a general mafia factional kill instead of mafioso/gf


yeah thats what alex suggested, and I like it, but what would be the 2 slots?

A tk and an RT?
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Re: New ranked sucks.

Postby Joacgroso » Thu May 13, 2021 9:19 am

SilverCruz wrote:The Hypnotist likewise will be at major risk of getting identified by Day 3 if it doesn't idle, nevermind how it's already very capable of exposing itself without help through conflicting feedback (it needs to either terminate its visit if it would cause conflicting feedback or destroy its target's feedback when using a Roleblocked or Controlled Hypnosis, though a third thing that just came to mind would be letting it use Transported on two different targets in a single night).

I remember the original drug dealer suggestion had the "you slept peacefully" message. Why no one brings that one up? Is it too broken? Or just too hard to implement because of priorities?
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: New ranked sucks.

Postby alex1234321 » Thu May 13, 2021 7:22 pm

Joacgroso wrote:
SilverCruz wrote:The Hypnotist likewise will be at major risk of getting identified by Day 3 if it doesn't idle, nevermind how it's already very capable of exposing itself without help through conflicting feedback (it needs to either terminate its visit if it would cause conflicting feedback or destroy its target's feedback when using a Roleblocked or Controlled Hypnosis, though a third thing that just came to mind would be letting it use Transported on two different targets in a single night).

I remember the original drug dealer suggestion had the "you slept peacefully" message. Why no one brings that one up? Is it too broken? Or just too hard to implement because of priorities?


I've mentioned this before and syjfwbaobfwl made the same suggestion in that thread. It certainly wouldn't put Hypno on par with Consort, but it would be a needed buff that wouldn't out the existence of a Hypno. I don't see why the coding would be hard to implement at all.
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Re: New ranked sucks.

Postby coffeelovinggamer » Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:35 pm

I'd have to say that of all the old ranked list, I hated NK. Didn't matter which one it was, I hated playing it. I always did cause I aint no leaver - but I hated it. it's you against almost everyone else, and people could be quite nasty about it. at least with maf there were people who had your back, but not with NK - unless you were lucky enough to get a neutral to side with you.

i do miss the any slot and i do miss the NBs. i those things added spice to the game. amne could be town, or amne could be maf. or.. if they took too long to decide, they'd be dead for not picking a side. survivor could be fun or it could be hell depending on the people you were playing with - but at least they were interesting. They were spice. NK was just.. boring.
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Re: New ranked sucks.

Postby SilverCruz » Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:27 pm

Neutral Killing is a designated idiot that only Arsonist can play in a straightforward manner. Serial Killer and Werewolf function more effectively if the Town does not believe that there is a Serial Killer or Werewolf to begin with, with them only lashing out once the game is already close enough to done that they can't be voted out anymore, but those strategies can be hampered by things that are out of their control, nevermind how threatening they are to a Witch, their only potential line of support other than another member of the same faction, which Werewolf doesn't even get.

Then, of course, there's Classic, where the Town always knows there's a Serial Killer because it's a static role, so they're even more pigeonholed into being the designated idiot who doesn't exist to have a realistic chance of winning, but only to push the game along a little faster and feed one of the other factions a win through their actions.

That all said, never having Neutral Killing is boring, so it'd still be nice to have a minimal stakes static role list that has one so as to be able to just decompress from doing the same thing over and over and over again. Town Traitor isn't enough of a departure to be interesting.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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