I got a lot to say all of a sudden, so here we go.

[SilverCruz]

so youre saying jailor should be nerfed because you dont like getting mafia roles, and feel that you should win a match by joining the lobby?

Well, clearly not, but question with a question. If a fighting game has a character with an infinite combo that takes the opponent from 100% to 0% with no way to stop it once it begins, should that combo be removed?

Again, all bad sportsmanship, HS/H and Racism cases are handled immediately to prevent the players from continuing their actions in other games. And No leaving while dead will never become punishable because it already is in some ways. Leaving while dead does not warrent you with any rewards you would obtain while winning such as ELO or MP. Therefore it's used as an encouragement to stay in game.

Merit Points feel worthless. Also, it'd help me, personally, if I could delete my W/L/D record and have that just not be tracked. For me, personally, it's incredibly lopsided because leaving does not count as a loss by its standards, which is my entire reasoning for wanting to get out as soon as the situation is irreconcilable. I know that's a bad trait on my part, sucks to be me in way more ways than just that.

Alright telling you now, racism and harassment cases aren't handled immediately. At best, they're handled ASAP, but I had a guy who consistently typed "Lynch the bl*cks" for 4-5 games in a row with the name "N*gro". And I'm talking at least 20m long games.

The only cases they seem to handle quickly are reports of faking BMG employees. Granted, it's also super rare to see anybody try that, but the few times I have, they were banned before the game was even over.

There's a reason I made a post about updating the banned words you know, since racism can run wild for hours due to either nobody being on or them being swamped with reports.

That being said I have nothing else relevant to add to your comment.

I feel like especially if the game ever returned to free-to-play, situations like that would be best handled by not even bothering to ban those accounts (evidently they keep coming back anyway in spite of the price tag, so something's not working). Instead, just allow players to click them in the lobby, click "Do not match me with this player again", and then they can leave that lobby and never see them again. Provided everyone knows that they can do this and it's easy to do within the ten seconds of a round starting (worst case, make it extend the countdown each time it happens), that would allow the problem to eventually sort itself out as the bots and spammers end up only matched with each other since they've gotten marked by everyone else. At the very least, such a thing would be worth considering and maybe trying out, though perhaps unfit for a PTR run like direct role changes would be.

[EqsyLootz]

Spoiler:

so youre saying jailor should be nerfed because you dont like getting mafia roles, and feel that you should win a match by joining the lobby?

Well, clearly not, but question with a question. If a fighting game has a character with an infinite combo that takes the opponent from 100% to 0% with no way to stop it once it begins, should that combo be removed?

Again, all bad sportsmanship, HS/H and Racism cases are handled immediately to prevent the players from continuing their actions in other games. And No leaving while dead will never become punishable because it already is in some ways. Leaving while dead does not warrent you with any rewards you would obtain while winning such as ELO or MP. Therefore it's used as an encouragement to stay in game.

Merit Points feel worthless. Also, it'd help me, personally, if I could delete my W/L/D record and have that just not be tracked. For me, personally, it's incredibly lopsided because leaving does not count as a loss by its standards, which is my entire reasoning for wanting to get out as soon as the situation is irreconcilable. I know that's a bad trait on my part, sucks to be me in way more ways than just that.

Alright telling you now, racism and harassment cases aren't handled immediately. At best, they're handled ASAP, but I had a guy who consistently typed "Lynch the bl*cks" for 4-5 games in a row with the name "N*gro". And I'm talking at least 20m long games.

The only cases they seem to handle quickly are reports of faking BMG employees. Granted, it's also super rare to see anybody try that, but the few times I have, they were banned before the game was even over.

There's a reason I made a post about updating the banned words you know, since racism can run wild for hours due to either nobody being on or them being swamped with reports.

That being said I have nothing else relevant to add to your comment.

I feel like especially if the game ever returned to free-to-play, situations like that would be best handled by not even bothering to ban those accounts (evidently they keep coming back anyway in spite of the price tag, so something's not working). Instead, just allow players to click them in the lobby, click "Do not match me with this player again", and then they can leave that lobby and never see them again. Provided everyone knows that they can do this and it's easy to do within the ten seconds of a round starting (worst case, make it extend the countdown each time it happens), that would allow the problem to eventually sort itself out as the bots and spammers end up only matched with each other since they've gotten marked by everyone else. At the very least, such a thing would be worth considering and maybe trying out, though perhaps unfit for a PTR run like direct role changes would be.

I'm beginning to think you're trolling.

[dolphina]

maybe all of this guy’s threads are just him postfarming

[SilverCruz]

Excuse me for not being happy with this game.

[dolphina]

Excuse me for not being happy with this game.

maybe all of this guy’s threads are just him postfarming

[syjfwbaobfwl]

Excuse me for not being happy with this game.

Then why u play it?

[SilverCruz]

I was kind of figuring I was going to stop again, actually, because the rules are draconian, the Jailor is still overpowered after all these years with nothing whatsoever having changed beyond that meaningless death note replacement, and the community is coming off as really aggressive and unwilling to listen to anything, not that that matters considering the real problem is the developers' radio silence and apparent unwillingness to address balance adjustments in favor of this nonsense leaver buster and whatever that announcement is about that seems to be a graphical overhaul or a new product to be sold, neither of which is good.

[dbpeanut]

I was kind of figuring I was going to stop again, actually, because the rules are draconian, the Jailor is still overpowered after all these years with nothing whatsoever having changed beyond that meaningless death note replacement, and the community is coming off as really aggressive and unwilling to listen to anything, not that that matters considering the real problem is the developers' radio silence and apparent unwillingness to address balance adjustments in favor of this nonsense leaver buster and whatever that announcement is about that seems to be a graphical overhaul or a new product to be sold, neither of which is good.

This is the exact sentiment a good chunk of the community holds. Some rules are too tightly enforced while others are lax. Some roles are busted strong others are far too weak. This is the whole point of the forums, to give input.

maybe all of this guy’s threads are just him postfarming

I really want to point out that they gave an excellent idea- the ability to avoid players. But instead of giving them input, you instead decided to suggest they were pointfarming. As if they need to, do you even look to the right at all to see basic info on profiles? They're one of those players who clearly didn't use the forums much before now because they preferred playing the game. The literal whole reason they're using the forums is to give input- only for the forums community to discredit their ideas.

Now, I want you guys to try inputting on the actual idea of avoiding players, since that's something a lot of games implement successfully, why can't TOS?

[EqsyLootz]

I was kind of figuring I was going to stop again, actually, because the rules are draconian, the Jailor is still overpowered after all these years with nothing whatsoever having changed beyond that meaningless death note replacement, and the community is coming off as really aggressive and unwilling to listen to anything, not that that matters considering the real problem is the developers' radio silence and apparent unwillingness to address balance adjustments in favor of this nonsense leaver buster and whatever that announcement is about that seems to be a graphical overhaul or a new product to be sold, neither of which is good.

This is the exact sentiment a good chunk of the community holds. Some rules are too tightly enforced while others are lax. Some roles are busted strong others are far too weak. This is the whole point of the forums, to give input.

maybe all of this guy’s threads are just him postfarming

I really want to point out that they gave an excellent idea- the ability to avoid players. But instead of giving them input, you instead decided to suggest they were pointfarming. As if they need to, do you even look to the right at all to see basic info on profiles? They're one of those players who clearly didn't use the forums much before now because they preferred playing the game. The literal whole reason they're using the forums is to give input- only for the forums community to discredit their ideas.

Now, I want you guys to try inputting on the actual idea of avoiding players, since that's something a lot of games implement successfully, why can't TOS?

Although SilverCruz is becoming to be annoying which is why dolphina mentioned Post farming. They keep bringing up the same argument which is why I think this entire discussion should be dropped, it could be looked at and we should just wait to see where the updates bring.

[SilverCruz]

You know what else is annoying?

Radio silence from the developers.

[EqsyLootz]

You know what else is annoying?

Radio silence from the developers.

What do you mean Radio Silence? The Devs can't focus on every single Feedback and suggestion and individual post. They may read but not give comment. it takes time to code, if you think it's so easy start your own game and make it everything you wanted the devs to do.

[SilverCruz]

Ah, "If you aren't in the same field as the developers then you're not allowed to criticize them.", the Butch Hartman defense. A classic play.

They at least need a direct proxy if the health of this game is a priority. I don't expect all of them to stop what they're doing at any given second and read these forums, but I do expect somebody to peel over them, talk about the feedback and suggestions given, and float those ideas with the rest of the developers/the developers themselves (depending on if the proxy is one or not) in a voice chat or whatever.

[EqsyLootz]

Ah, "If you aren't in the same field as the developers then you're not allowed to criticize them.", the Butch Hartman defense. A classic play.

They at least need a direct proxy if the health of this game is a priority. I don't expect all of them to stop what they're doing at any given second and read these forums, but I do expect somebody to peel over them, talk about the feedback and suggestions given, and float those ideas with the rest of the developers/the developers themselves (depending on if the proxy is one or not) in a voice chat or whatever.

They are a small development team and yet again you have the audacity to compare them the same to a large scale million dollar company. They can only do so much with the small number of workers and time. Therefore cut them some slack, they do implement suggestions when the time is right. a new update is to come soon so don't worry.

[SilverCruz]

Yes. They don't have the playerbase of a "large scale million dollar company". Just glancing real quick, the game reports 2214 players and 99 games, while this forum reports 149 users, only six of them registered or hidden. It's maybe an awkward hour for some people, sure, but most of the players don't seem to come over here, and these forums aren't exactly moving at a breakneck pace. Reading and replying to a slow forum isn't that much work, and discontent is not content to wait.

[dbpeanut]

Ah, "If you aren't in the same field as the developers then you're not allowed to criticize them.", the Butch Hartman defense. A classic play.

They at least need a direct proxy if the health of this game is a priority. I don't expect all of them to stop what they're doing at any given second and read these forums, but I do expect somebody to peel over them, talk about the feedback and suggestions given, and float those ideas with the rest of the developers/the developers themselves (depending on if the proxy is one or not) in a voice chat or whatever.

They are a small development team and yet again you have the audacity to compare them the same to a large scale million dollar company. They can only do so much with the small number of workers and time. Therefore cut them some slack, they do implement suggestions when the time is right. a new update is to come soon so don't worry.

You don't have to compare them to a large scale million dollar company to be dissatisfied with the lack of communication. Comparing them to an indie dev, they still lack consistent communication.
I'm not saying they don't have a hard job or they aren't working on the game, but we need a more consistent way to relay information to and back.

[dbpeanut]

Also an update coming /=/ it will answer the problems the communities have.
We don't get enough communication to know if it will or not. That's the issue.

[kyuss420]

so youre saying jailor should be nerfed because you dont like getting mafia roles, and feel that you should win a match by joining the lobby?

Well, clearly not, but question with a question. If a fighting game has a character with an infinite combo that takes the opponent from 100% to 0% with no way to stop it once it begins, should that combo be removed?

I actually had a game like that, and the combo was nerfed out of existence after 3 months because the $30 000 dollar whales cried too hard. Thing is, the combo took many rounds to get started (enough rounds for a whale to kick your ass) and required 4 characters to pull off, problem was, whales were too dumb to use strategies that could kick ass, because they were so used to dropping their $1000 characters on noobs who had no idea how to counter them. (Thats how I got famous in that game, by trashing the whales using simple characters - problem was, if i didnt match vs whales, my whale countering lineup lost to average players not using whale characters)

So no, that combo shouldnt be removed, cos it wouldnt have been implemented if there was no counter to a player using it. It only gets removed when big $$$$ players cry because they dont want to use the counter.

So another question(s):

If you know the combo exists, and how the combo works, how the hell havent you thought of a way to counter it yet? -or is it that its just ''too hard'' to play ToS using strategic moves, instead of the ''randomly hit and hope'' method that you learnt in bronze.

Or is it youre one of those players - ''I could visit the jailor n1 as RM, but i wont ''In case theres a spy'' . You know the ones..... the ones that wont use a strat ''in case X role exists'' or wont target a specific player ''in case X role is on them''.... Or thinks the game is over when they die

Now, I want you guys to try inputting on the actual idea of avoiding players, since that's something a lot of games implement successfully, why can't TOS?

The problem here is that ToS runs on a lobby by lobby basis. So adding a blacklist feature, would cause multiple lobbies to be created at once. Now if 10 people have blacklisted each other and theyre all trying to join the same lobby, you now have 10 lobbies for the one mode causing a huge wait for probably 8 of them.

Imagine trying to join a lobby when 80% of the players online have you blacklisted because you executed a sheriff n3 during your 8th game ever..... all of a sudden every lobby is empty and never fills....


Nothing he has brought up is new..... its all been discussed at legnth in other threads, and all of the solutions suggested in them cause other problems, so if youre happy to have a blacklist feature at the expense of +10-20 minute lobby wait, then suggest away

[EqsyLootz]

so youre saying jailor should be nerfed because you dont like getting mafia roles, and feel that you should win a match by joining the lobby?

Well, clearly not, but question with a question. If a fighting game has a character with an infinite combo that takes the opponent from 100% to 0% with no way to stop it once it begins, should that combo be removed?

I actually had a game like that, and the combo was nerfed out of existence after 3 months because the $30 000 dollar whales cried too hard. Thing is, the combo took many rounds to get started (enough rounds for a whale to kick your ass) and required 4 characters to pull off, problem was, whales were too dumb to use strategies that could kick ass, because they were so used to dropping their $1000 characters on noobs who had no idea how to counter them. (Thats how I got famous in that game, by trashing the whales using simple characters - problem was, if i didnt match vs whales, my whale countering lineup lost to average players not using whale characters)

So no, that combo shouldnt be removed, cos it wouldnt have been implemented if there was no counter to a player using it. It only gets removed when big $$$$ players cry because they dont want to use the counter.

So another question(s):

If you know the combo exists, and how the combo works, how the hell havent you thought of a way to counter it yet? -or is it that its just ''too hard'' to play ToS using strategic moves, instead of the ''randomly hit and hope'' method that you learnt in bronze.

Or is it youre one of those players - ''I could visit the jailor n1 as RM, but i wont ''In case theres a spy'' . You know the ones..... the ones that wont use a strat ''in case X role exists'' or wont target a specific player ''in case X role is on them''.... Or thinks the game is over when they die

Now, I want you guys to try inputting on the actual idea of avoiding players, since that's something a lot of games implement successfully, why can't TOS?

The problem here is that ToS runs on a lobby by lobby basis. So adding a blacklist feature, would cause multiple lobbies to be created at once. Now if 10 people have blacklisted each other and theyre all trying to join the same lobby, you now have 10 lobbies for the one mode causing a huge wait for probably 8 of them.

Imagine trying to join a lobby when 80% of the players online have you blacklisted because you executed a sheriff n3 during your 8th game ever..... all of a sudden every lobby is empty and never fills....


Nothing he has brought up is new..... its all been discussed at legnth in other threads, and all of the solutions suggested in them cause other problems, so if youre happy to have a blacklist feature at the expense of +10-20 minute lobby wait, then suggest away

Thank you Kyuss for bringing us this analogy as it brings up exactly my point. Instead of complaining till the end of time about Leavers, Quit bots or Jailor. Work with what you have for now. Develop strategies to counter the Jailor and don't say there is none as there are PLENTY!

[dbpeanut]

so youre saying jailor should be nerfed because you dont like getting mafia roles, and feel that you should win a match by joining the lobby?

Well, clearly not, but question with a question. If a fighting game has a character with an infinite combo that takes the opponent from 100% to 0% with no way to stop it once it begins, should that combo be removed?

I actually had a game like that, and the combo was nerfed out of existence after 3 months because the $30 000 dollar whales cried too hard. Thing is, the combo took many rounds to get started (enough rounds for a whale to kick your ass) and required 4 characters to pull off, problem was, whales were too dumb to use strategies that could kick ass, because they were so used to dropping their $1000 characters on noobs who had no idea how to counter them. (Thats how I got famous in that game, by trashing the whales using simple characters - problem was, if i didnt match vs whales, my whale countering lineup lost to average players not using whale characters)

So no, that combo shouldnt be removed, cos it wouldnt have been implemented if there was no counter to a player using it. It only gets removed when big $$$$ players cry because they dont want to use the counter.

So another question(s):

If you know the combo exists, and how the combo works, how the hell havent you thought of a way to counter it yet? -or is it that its just ''too hard'' to play ToS using strategic moves, instead of the ''randomly hit and hope'' method that you learnt in bronze.

Or is it youre one of those players - ''I could visit the jailor n1 as RM, but i wont ''In case theres a spy'' . You know the ones..... the ones that wont use a strat ''in case X role exists'' or wont target a specific player ''in case X role is on them''.... Or thinks the game is over when they die

Now, I want you guys to try inputting on the actual idea of avoiding players, since that's something a lot of games implement successfully, why can't TOS?

The problem here is that ToS runs on a lobby by lobby basis. So adding a blacklist feature, would cause multiple lobbies to be created at once. Now if 10 people have blacklisted each other and theyre all trying to join the same lobby, you now have 10 lobbies for the one mode causing a huge wait for probably 8 of them.

Imagine trying to join a lobby when 80% of the players online have you blacklisted because you executed a sheriff n3 during your 8th game ever..... all of a sudden every lobby is empty and never fills....


Nothing he has brought up is new..... its all been discussed at legnth in other threads, and all of the solutions suggested in them cause other problems, so if youre happy to have a blacklist feature at the expense of +10-20 minute lobby wait, then suggest away

While I'm unsure of which fighting game has P2W to that degree, likely Dead or Alive, the analogy is more akin to Sheeva's Dragon Stomp in MK11- it can be done infinitely, delayed or instant, and stuns you. There's actually 0 counter to it.
Likewise, the Jailor is ultimately uncounterable. If the Jailor reveals Day One, you have to convince them that you're good. If that doesn't work, tough shit. I'm well aware you could take out every single TP in order to kill the Jailor, but I'm also well aware that the Jailor deadlocking is a legitimate issue. All it takes for the Jailor to deadlock is one of two things- get the mafia killing jailed when there's only one, or use a TI to figure out who the Mafia Killing is.
When you're deadlocked, there is no counter. Zero. That's the whole reason Jailor keeps their ability after failing to execute an evil- to deadlock. Escort can also deadlock as well, but unlike Jailor, there's counters to Escort. Such as framing them as consort. Realistically, unless you're able to trick the town genuinely that early on, you can't get Jailor hung.

This is probably your best comment I've seen Kyuss, because it actually explains something reasonably well, although blacklisting 80% of the game is literally never going to happen.

Just because something isn't new, doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed. If it's any easier, you should link to the other threads instead of the key hitters in the forums community taking swings at people who have legitimate gripes. It's not cool, as it paints you guys as the stereotype the rest of the community thinks you as: people who will defend the devs even when it's legitimate criticism.

But if you're interested- here's two suggestions to fix Jailor.
One- After he kills an innocent, he can't jail for one or two days. After all, he has to clean up innocent blood.
Two- No consequetive jailing. Period.
Obviously the second one has been suggested countless times, due to it literally being the easiest fix to Jailor. Don't discount it because of that.

[SilverCruz]

so youre saying jailor should be nerfed because you dont like getting mafia roles, and feel that you should win a match by joining the lobby?

Well, clearly not, but question with a question. If a fighting game has a character with an infinite combo that takes the opponent from 100% to 0% with no way to stop it once it begins, should that combo be removed?

I actually had a game like that, and the combo was nerfed out of existence after 3 months because the $30 000 dollar whales cried too hard. Thing is, the combo took many rounds to get started (enough rounds for a whale to kick your ass) and required 4 characters to pull off, problem was, whales were too dumb to use strategies that could kick ass, because they were so used to dropping their $1000 characters on noobs who had no idea how to counter them. (Thats how I got famous in that game, by trashing the whales using simple characters - problem was, if i didnt match vs whales, my whale countering lineup lost to average players not using whale characters)

So no, that combo shouldnt be removed, cos it wouldnt have been implemented if there was no counter to a player using it. It only gets removed when big $$$$ players cry because they dont want to use the counter.

So another question(s):

If you know the combo exists, and how the combo works, how the hell havent you thought of a way to counter it yet? -or is it that its just ''too hard'' to play ToS using strategic moves, instead of the ''randomly hit and hope'' method that you learnt in bronze.

Or is it youre one of those players - ''I could visit the jailor n1 as RM, but i wont ''In case theres a spy'' . You know the ones..... the ones that wont use a strat ''in case X role exists'' or wont target a specific player ''in case X role is on them''.... Or thinks the game is over when they die

Now, I want you guys to try inputting on the actual idea of avoiding players, since that's something a lot of games implement successfully, why can't TOS?

The problem here is that ToS runs on a lobby by lobby basis. So adding a blacklist feature, would cause multiple lobbies to be created at once. Now if 10 people have blacklisted each other and theyre all trying to join the same lobby, you now have 10 lobbies for the one mode causing a huge wait for probably 8 of them.

Imagine trying to join a lobby when 80% of the players online have you blacklisted because you executed a sheriff n3 during your 8th game ever..... all of a sudden every lobby is empty and never fills....


Nothing he has brought up is new..... its all been discussed at legnth in other threads, and all of the solutions suggested in them cause other problems, so if youre happy to have a blacklist feature at the expense of +10-20 minute lobby wait, then suggest away

Okay, first off, care to share what exactly this game was? It sounds like some Gacha game, and those aren't exactly paragons of repute and respect, so it'd be nice to be clear on what you're talking about. I also counter that with Mortal Kombat 9 Kung Lao. Had an infinite, infinite got thrown out. You seem to be of a misunderstanding in believing that it's normal for infinites to be intentional. They're usually not. They're usually around because of an oversight in development, and seen as a problem to be corrected.

Two, because there is no counter. If you're solo Godfather/Mafioso and you get jailed, game over. It's also way too safe on the Jailor's part because there's no Neutral Killing, there's probably not an Ambusher and even if there were it can't choose to attack anyone and is itself extremely unsafe since if there are two visitors or a Medium it's dead after it gets one or two attacks off, and the only way the Witch could hope to kill you to break it would be for there to be no less than two Vigilantes, one to kill the Doctor if there is one (nevermind that has to be a perfect shot), or one to go down with the Bodyguard, then another to actually get you. Your other remark is completely baseless because there's no "in case" about it, there is 100% going to be a Doctor or Bodyguard protecting the Jailor because there is a Town Protective slot and those are the only Town Protectives, and banking on them not healing the Jailor because they find the meta annoying or too predictable on their part is incredibly unreliable.

Three, it doesn't even have to be a lobby. Ranked uses a queue, the rest of the game can just also use a queue. Have an in-game chat room to replace the lobby so that people can still talk outside of rounds, but use a queue for actual matching so that your proposed issue can't happen.

But anyway, as you've been told, the Jailor should just be nerfed. No jailing the same person twice in a row is among the easiest solutions because it would require little more than adding a "wasjailed" flag that starts at 0, flips to 1 if one is jailed, flips back to 0 when a night passes where they are not jailed, and while it is 1 they cannot be jailed, if this game is coded in a way that would make sense to me. Flat out taking away the Jailor's roleblock unless they execute would also terminate their ability to deadlock completely as well as making them no longer an objectively superior version of the Escort.

Speaking of, I don't remember if I've actually spoken on this, but I find it strange the way in which the Jailor is an objectively superior version of the Vigilante. It has more power, but less risk. What sense does that make? It'd make more sense to me (balance notwithstanding) if the Jailor had a Basic attack and the Vigilante had a Powerful attack, since that'd give the Jailor less for not dying if they misfire and the Vigilante more to compensate for the risk both in what happens if they misfire and being easier for a Witch to use. I'm not sure if doing that would be overkill if Jailor deadlocks were removed and some risk to revealing Day 1 were added (I still say make the Witch force the Jailor to execute by making it self-target, since that's the shortest path to a solution while there's a static Witch), but it's one of those things that's weird if you think about it too long.

Then again, the Jailor is BMG's Wesley Crusher, so of course it's just outright better than two other roles, and the developers simply do not check these forums so honestly, talking about any of this is completely useless. They don't care what anyone thinks about their game, so of course it's in a bad place.

[kyuss420]

so you blacklisted person A, and he queues the same time as you.
Person A has person B blacklisted, he is also queueing at the same time.
You have person B blacklisted.

Three lobbies (or queues) are created, because person B cant enter either of them.

Your game ends, now you cant enter queue 1 or queue 2 because theres someone you blacklisted in them. Queue 3 is created and doesnt fill until queue 1 and 2 fills up.

Also you are trying to queue in coven town traitor, with only 18 players in the rotation.

Now, instead of waiting for 1 match to end before you can play, you have to wait for 3 matches to end before you can play. (as long as someone else you blacklisted doesnt decide to join a queue)

I mean, I hear what dbpeanut is saying about the 80%, but in reality, does she really think the average ToS player isnt petty enough to blacklist someone because of 1 bad play, on 1 night, in 1 game? or over 1 dispute? or just because they were salty they got outsmarted? after a month or 2 when every player has 20-30 people blacklisted (especially in reg heavy modes), the average wait for a game will be tripled, if not more.....

The second problem with a blacklist, is that I can just blacklist everyone better than me, and match noobs that I can easily beat every game. I can already see SilverCruz blacklist everyone that uses the LO meta, or chainblocks as jailor if they have the oppurtunity. This creates much longer wait times for guys in Masters ELO, as they all get blacklisted as soon as they have a good game.

[dbpeanut]

so you blacklisted person A, and he queues the same time as you.
Person A has person B blacklisted, he is also queueing at the same time.
You have person B blacklisted.

Three lobbies (or queues) are created, because person B cant enter either of them.

Your game ends, now you cant enter queue 1 or queue 2 because theres someone you blacklisted in them. Queue 3 is created and doesnt fill until queue 1 and 2 fills up.

Also you are trying to queue in coven town traitor, with only 18 players in the rotation.

Now, instead of waiting for 1 match to end before you can play, you have to wait for 3 matches to end before you can play. (as long as someone else you blacklisted doesnt decide to join a queue)

I mean, I hear what dbpeanut is saying about the 80%, but in reality, does she really think the average ToS player isnt petty enough to blacklist someone because of 1 bad play, on 1 night, in 1 game? or over 1 dispute? or just because they were salty they got outsmarted? after a month or 2 when every player has 20-30 people blacklisted (especially in reg heavy modes), the average wait for a game will be tripled, if not more.....

The second problem with a blacklist, is that I can just blacklist everyone better than me, and match noobs that I can easily beat every game. I can already see SilverCruz blacklist everyone that uses the LO meta, or chainblocks as jailor if they have the oppurtunity. This creates much longer wait times for guys in Masters ELO, as they all get blacklisted as soon as they have a good game.

The queue thing makes sense- it completely makes sense actually.
The other argument is complete crap- the majority of the community are leagues more likely to blacklist racists or spammers than someone who's "better than them"- which might I add doesn't exist in a deceit game. Yes, if you're good at manipulation you'll be good at TOS, logically, but there's no true "better". It's more luck based than anything else.
Also, FYI- just because the meta is horrible and should be changed, doesn't mean that a player arguing for it to change is going to get rid of anybody who uses it. The meta is the meta for a reason.

[kyuss420]

I think you underestimate the saltiness of ToS players. Some days I cant play a game without some idiot calling to ''report X for gamethrow'' because they voted at the wrong time or did something dumb, that wasnt G/T. Doc not going on the jailor? ''gamethrow!!!'' Escort RBed me after I posted my sheriff will day 2? ''gamethrow!!''

Id have to argue the point that better does exist in ToS. Its only a game of deceit for 4-6 out of the 15 players, for the remaining 9 (plus all of the town sided nuetrals who think theyre town) its a game of logic and Process of Elimination, and there are players who are far better than others in every mode and at both of those things. The luck factor comes from what roles spawn in the random slots, and what random crap noobs are pulling during the night phase...seasoned players dont do things randomly. Seasoned evils dont do things randomly either, thats why they beat noob towns. (altho noob towns always assume its because someone gamethrew....)

Yes the meta is the meta for a reason, in Poker its called Optimal Game Theory. Meaning statistically, you are giving yourself a better chance of success by playing optimally than by playing exploitative. Evil factions have to play both ways at once, optimally during night phases and exploitative during day phases. Exploitative is reading the players and manipulating them into doing what you want them to do, not what they want to do. Optimal uses maths/statistics and you always choose the play that has the highest chance of causing a win - this always creates a meta, so there is ALWAYS going to be a meta, because as town, players are always going to be playing optimally and using POE and logic to find the evils, and as evil, players are always going to be targeting the optimal target on any particular night....(usually LO, TPs then jailor/power roles - as TIs cant do a thing in an even majority)

[SilverCruz]

I think you underestimate the saltiness of ToS players. Some days I cant play a game without some idiot calling to ''report X for gamethrow'' because they voted at the wrong time or did something dumb, that wasnt G/T. Doc not going on the jailor? ''gamethrow!!!'' Escort RBed me after I posted my sheriff will day 2? ''gamethrow!!''

Id have to argue the point that better does exist in ToS. Its only a game of deceit for 4-6 out of the 15 players, for the remaining 9 (plus all of the town sided nuetrals who think theyre town) its a game of logic and Process of Elimination, and there are players who are far better than others in every mode and at both of those things. The luck factor comes from what roles spawn in the random slots, and what random crap noobs are pulling during the night phase...seasoned players dont do things randomly. Seasoned evils dont do things randomly either, thats why they beat noob towns. (altho noob towns always assume its because someone gamethrew....)

Yes the meta is the meta for a reason, in Poker its called Optimal Game Theory. Meaning statistically, you are giving yourself a better chance of success by playing optimally than by playing exploitative. Evil factions have to play both ways at once, optimally during night phases and exploitative during day phases. Exploitative is reading the players and manipulating them into doing what you want them to do, not what they want to do. Optimal uses maths/statistics and you always choose the play that has the highest chance of causing a win - this always creates a meta, so there is ALWAYS going to be a meta, because as town, players are always going to be playing optimally and using POE and logic to find the evils, and as evil, players are always going to be targeting the optimal target on any particular night....(usually LO, TPs then jailor/power roles - as TIs cant do a thing in an even majority)

First off, Escort is a badly designed role.

Second, you can break cumbersome metas by breaking them. Break the Jailor meta by letting the Witch make the Jailor execute by self-targeting. Is that strong for the Witch? Yeah, of course. You know how to stop the Witch from abusing it? Stop declaring that you're the Jailor on Day 1. It does nothing but bring the Jailor down closer to the Vigilante's level, but they're still better than the Vigilante because they can still deadlock, the Witch can't pick a target for them to kill, and the Jailor doesn't cark it when they kill a townie.

[kyuss420]

I think you underestimate the saltiness of ToS players. Some days I cant play a game without some idiot calling to ''report X for gamethrow'' because they voted at the wrong time or did something dumb, that wasnt G/T. Doc not going on the jailor? ''gamethrow!!!'' Escort RBed me after I posted my sheriff will day 2? ''gamethrow!!''

Id have to argue the point that better does exist in ToS. Its only a game of deceit for 4-6 out of the 15 players, for the remaining 9 (plus all of the town sided nuetrals who think theyre town) its a game of logic and Process of Elimination, and there are players who are far better than others in every mode and at both of those things. The luck factor comes from what roles spawn in the random slots, and what random crap noobs are pulling during the night phase...seasoned players dont do things randomly. Seasoned evils dont do things randomly either, thats why they beat noob towns. (altho noob towns always assume its because someone gamethrew....)

Yes the meta is the meta for a reason, in Poker its called Optimal Game Theory. Meaning statistically, you are giving yourself a better chance of success by playing optimally than by playing exploitative. Evil factions have to play both ways at once, optimally during night phases and exploitative during day phases. Exploitative is reading the players and manipulating them into doing what you want them to do, not what they want to do. Optimal uses maths/statistics and you always choose the play that has the highest chance of causing a win - this always creates a meta, so there is ALWAYS going to be a meta, because as town, players are always going to be playing optimally and using POE and logic to find the evils, and as evil, players are always going to be targeting the optimal target on any particular night....(usually LO, TPs then jailor/power roles - as TIs cant do a thing in an even majority)

First off, Escort is a badly designed role.

Second, you can break cumbersome metas by breaking them. Break the Jailor meta by letting the Witch make the Jailor execute by self-targeting. Is that strong for the Witch? Yeah, of course. You know how to stop the Witch from abusing it? Stop declaring that you're the Jailor on Day 1. It does nothing but bring the Jailor down closer to the Vigilante's level, but they're still better than the Vigilante because they can still deadlock, the Witch can't pick a target for them to kill, and the Jailor doesn't cark it when they kill a townie.

so? medium claims day 1 instead, the LO still confirms themself and the TPs, it doesnt stop the ''jailor'' meta at all, because its a LO meta, that greatly increases the process of elimination of suspected evils.

Evils then bumble around, randomly hitting people at night in hopes they get lucky and hit the jailor - using no strategy but the hit and hope method, making playing as evil a luck fest, when jailor is going to claim by day3 at the latest anyway (unless TPs are dead).

And boo hoo that the witch has to have a brain to break a jail deadlock. Also the execution is a night ability, and jailor had to click on their suspect to execute them on the flash version, meaning jailor had to target their suspect at night to execute (its not the day ability) - hence why escort/consort stops the execute, and trans cant stop the execute and why controlling jailor to their suspect makes them use an execute. If jailor had to target themselves to execute, a RB wouldnt do anything because theyre already at home.