Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby Schultz128 » Thu May 21, 2020 9:45 pm

Also passing the checks weren't that hard tbh, I passed all of Met's checks. The only busted thing about the ability was it being permanent and not limited to one person per cycle/phase.
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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby Schultz128 » Thu May 21, 2020 9:46 pm

Do note, the only 1-shot in this game was me, and it wasn't because of Met's ability.
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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby TheNiceOne16 » Thu May 21, 2020 9:48 pm

None combat roles should be able to leverage their power to either make combat roles do what they want through manipulation or to set up senarios where their strengths shine is my opinion. I'm even fine with one shots as long as they contain counter play embedded within them. Your ability does not do this. I bealive strougly in counter play to make a fun game.
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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby ChubbyMooshroom9 » Thu May 21, 2020 10:01 pm

Schultz128 wrote:Also passing the checks weren't that hard tbh, I passed all of Met's checks. The only busted thing about the ability was it being permanent and not limited to one person per cycle/phase.

yeah

like if it was nat 1 i could understand the uproar because it's basically 5% instakill chance, but it only applies to after every stat of yours has been added

looking at the roles it seems most people would have passed the checks, especially since the only combat rolls would be STR/DEX/VIT and PRC if you were using ranged weaponry, but even then met might not be in range to do his shtick. also i'm pretty sure it was limited to the one person he selected, unless im rarted
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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby Metrion » Thu May 21, 2020 10:06 pm

TheNiceOne16 wrote:None combat roles should be able to leverage their power to either make combat roles do what they want through manipulation or to set up senarios where their strengths shine is my opinion. I'm even fine with one shots as long as they contain counter play embedded within them. Your ability does not do this. I bealive strougly in counter play to make a fun game.


Putting yourself in a strong position is the point of every role in the game, I'm not sure why you oppose this. You haven't explained the difference between oneshots with counterplay and without. Or answered my point about slitting throats with knives. Also this piece:

I don't see the point about not wanting oneshots, it's a killing game, and I still have to actually roll, or combat has to actually happen for me to be able to one-shot. Plus, I need to have a weapon to do so. It wasn't hidden knowledge that I had that gun that killed those two. I didn't even have a good PRC stat. It's not like I look at the guy and snap their neck instantly, then vanish, and I was actually in another room talking to someone the whole time.


I mean schultz even ducked and reacted the first time I tried to kill him.
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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby TheNiceOne16 » Thu May 21, 2020 10:19 pm

The difference is simply, one is a fight and the other is a slaughter. No one enjoys being slaughtered, people can enjoy fights.
On the knife, I simply don't like one shots and would not allow it unless you set it up by prehaps sneaking up on them since you could theoretically counter this by being paranoid to always have you back to a wall. A straight up "Cut Jacks Neck" rolled nat 20 instant kill is not something I would ever want or enjoy.

The second part? I don't like the ability but it being a one and not a nat 1 makes it not OP except for the ability to constantly simulate attacking your target. That seems broken still. How can't you get a one shot off of that? Or am I reading it wrong/
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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby Metrion » Thu May 21, 2020 10:36 pm

TheNiceOne16 wrote:The difference is simply, one is a fight and the other is a slaughter. No one enjoys being slaughtered, people can enjoy fights.
On the knife, I simply don't like one shots and would not allow it unless you set it up by prehaps sneaking up on them since you could theoretically counter this by being paranoid to always have you back to a wall. A straight up "Cut Jacks Neck" rolled nat 20 instant kill is not something I would ever want or enjoy.

The second part? I don't like the ability but it being a one and not a nat 1 makes it not OP except for the ability to constantly simulate attacking your target. That seems broken still. How can't you get a one shot off of that? Or am I reading it wrong/


Dying isn't something that you should be catered to enjoy. And fighting someone who's obviously superior in fighting and dying like a dog isn't fun either, it just drags out the suffering. If you don't allow the knife example (which always was predicated on doing by sneaking) you're just railroading your players and completely removing the playstyle and more. You can't silently kill people without oneshots.

If your counterplay is to always be paranoid and always have your back to the wall the that would also work in this situation with my abilities. So I don't see a difference.

My ability just takes the guesswork out of it so I can say the dice roll in my favour here, I pull the trigger. It doesn't give me the situation in the first place to do it. A gun simply opens up more avenues to then roll, but that's also the same without my ability. You could say it's a good combination, in fact a great one. But it doesn't let me do anything that can't be done normally. Maybe Schultz could have taken my gun or demand I stay away from him. It's not like Nelly was letting me spam it every minute.
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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby TheNiceOne16 » Thu May 21, 2020 10:46 pm

I uh disagree. Dying should be fun. Like I said the sneaking one shot is fine not the slit johns throat on first roll of combat. The difference is that the sneak attack is something that can be predicted and you can do something about. Your ability allows no way for people to know it exsists and thus no way to counter it. Its the differense between an invisble mind controller in the sky and an obvious pychic alien walking around and people start acting different. One you can do litteraly nothing about since you don't know it even exsists and the other has clues to point you to a possible if difficult solution.

I guess its not OP if she limited useage of it and you couldn't get one shots off without proper high end gear. The counter play would be to keep such weapons out of your hands or steal them which is fair.

The betrayal ability is not fair though.

Also I may have bias due to dieing a lot very quickly, so keep that in mind.
Last edited by TheNiceOne16 on Thu May 21, 2020 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby LordofFail » Thu May 21, 2020 11:01 pm

Schultz128 wrote:Do note, the only 1-shot in this game was me, and it wasn't because of Met's ability.


met 1-shot me after i failed 4 consecutive actions to kill him
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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby Metrion » Thu May 21, 2020 11:06 pm

I surprised him. Whether my ability caused it or just a regular roll it's exactly the same. There is no distinction between it in game, no difference between predicting one and the other. Your point is moot.

The difference is that the sneak attack is something that can be predicted and you can do something about. Your ability allows no way for people to know it exsists and thus no way to counter it.


I can say the exact same thing about probably 10 abilities in this game that people don't know what they do so that makes them impossible to reasonably counter. You know what lets go over them:

Abilities that you can't plan for:
  • Flying the Black Sail - wow I didn't know this was even a thing. Uncounterable.
  • Soul Bound - oops I killed the linked person and now I'm outed. Uncounterable.
  • Judgement - how am I supposed to know that when I kill anyone anywhere I instantly set off an alarm and also anyone could have +3 VIT. Uncounterable.
  • Psychic Surge - holy shit. Uncounterable.
  • Captain Commander - how are you supposed to know this buffs all their interactions and isn't just armour? Uncounterable.
  • Acid Armor - So you could try to kill them with a bomb and they just nullify that shit? Uncountable.
  • Database Complete - how the hell are you supposed to know this ability and plan around it? Uncounterable.
  • I am the Creator, Behold my Creation - completely bullshit with no option for counterplay.

. Its the differense between an invisble mind controller in the sky and an obvious pychic alien walking around and people start acting different. One you can do litteraly nothing about since you don't know it even exsists and the other has clues to point you to a possible if difficult solution.


That's a gigantic stretch to call me an invisible mind controller in the sky. I'm not the strongest 1v1er, my power was because of a gun mixed with my ability. This was known, that I had a gun, to the only person I oneshot. Which I would say is a high end weapon. If schultz had been more paranoid he could have avoided me and told me to stay on the other floor. It's the exact same thing as if I had my ability or not.

The betrayal ability is another topic. I wont say more on it than I already have.
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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby Metrion » Thu May 21, 2020 11:06 pm

LordofFail wrote:
Schultz128 wrote:Do note, the only 1-shot in this game was me, and it wasn't because of Met's ability.


met 1-shot me after i failed 4 consecutive actions to kill him


Wasn't exactly a surprise to you though.
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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby TheNiceOne16 » Thu May 21, 2020 11:34 pm

Captain Commander is self countered. If I make a mistake with who I give it to my abilties fail, plus if a killer takes it my abilities fail. Escentially the counter play is gaining my trust while being evil or killing some who has my armor and wearing it. Both things one could logically be incentived to do with common knowledge. Plus I told Nelly to say I look different if I reach 3 adepts as a sort of clue I've changed somehow which coincides with the people in Legion Armor. Another case is that certain levels of strength require no counter. Like like get +1 Vit with a sheild requires no counter since its not that game breaking or strong. I agree that a lot of those abilities are uncounterable and are badly designed because of it.

I am not calling you that, the analogy is to show the difference between knowing thy enemy and not knowing thy enemy and how that affects trying to combat something. The reason why that level of paranoia is not counter play because its obvious negatives easily outway its unkown benefits. For instance keeping your back to walls does not logically have a direct negative to outway its benefit nor does stealing a gun if your able or keeping it away from others. Staying away from everyone based upon paranoia is likely to get you singled out and killed, not optimal with concurent knowledge.

Lastly, that one shot is not the hypothetical counterplayless one, getting a one and instantly dieing is however.

Also one shot with a pistol is fine since the prep for the one shot was obtaining high end gear and as long as the games balanced thats fine. Though I do kinda wish private slots were less absolute so guns can be better counter by stealing.

Also I may be imagining it but you seems kinda agressive about this, please tone it down. Sorry if your responding that way because I came off the wrong way. I just wanna discuse this.
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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby Schultz128 » Thu May 21, 2020 11:44 pm

met's usually just blunt when giving points in debates/discussions because it's better to be cold and to the point with your side clearly presented so it's not open to loose interpretations.
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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby TheNiceOne16 » Thu May 21, 2020 11:51 pm

Yeah I'm likely just overly emtional right now cause end of a VLDR game. Just felt it was better to be honest rather than be secretly butt hurt.
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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby Metrion » Fri May 22, 2020 12:14 am

I'm sorry if you think I'm being rude. It's just the way I post. I treasure you as a player on this part of the forums.

I'm not sure what we're arguing anymore because the ability only lets me forecast my attack, doesn't give me an inherit oneshot. The gun does, and you are fine with the gun. I'm also getting very tired and I can't understand some of your points because the conversation is getting mangled between the two of us.

Condensed what I'm trying to say is:

On my ability:
  • Oneshots exist with sneak kills. Any role or anyone can do it.
  • My ability just means if I fail the sneak kill, I don't do it and I have to wait for another opportunity.
  • I had a gun that allowed me to kill them and it was known information, he also had at least some suspect of me.
  • This all means that the kill was no different than a sneak kill where I passed the check.
  • So any counterplay that existed without the ability would have been the same with.

On oneshots:
  • I think they're fine.
  • Earning them through stealth, poor placing of trust, or surprise is an entire strategy I think is valid.
  • I think it would make killers less interesting if you removed it as a viable option.
  • I can agree it isn't fun for the dying person.
  • I also think dying openly overtime and being helpless isn't fun. Meaning it isn't just a oneshot issue, being betrayed and murdered is hard to elicit good reactions from.
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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby TheNiceOne16 » Fri May 22, 2020 12:48 am

I 100% agree that the forecast ability has counter play since you cant litteraly spam it enough to get nat 20's on demand and it takes high end gear to one shot. The roll a 1 ability and die while certainly balanced is not something anyone can know of, therefor it lacks counterplay.

The reason a One Shot could be seen as undesirable game design without adding in counterplay to it is as such, is it takes away player agency. If for no fault of your own you can just instantly die at anytime, why even bother?
I mean if nothing you do can effect the outcome then whats the point? It's simply not fun and we play VLDR to enjoy ourselves. The reason counterplay solves this is by allowing the other player the chance to do something about their impending doom you keep player agency intact. And sure a power MAY have a hidden counter, but what use is that to the man who has zero knowledge of it or zero ways to learn of it? Nothing. One needs Knowledge and ability to counter something.

What I said on one shots and counter play is also relevant but to a lessar degree to all abilities. If you can do something and no one else can do jack shit about it then theirs zero agency in it. It may as well be gravity.

Hopefully I kept that as simple as possible to get the main idea on my point across.
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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby Metrion » Fri May 22, 2020 9:29 am

I 100% agree that the forecast ability has counter play since you cant litteraly spam it enough to get nat 20's on demand and it takes high end gear to one shot. The roll a 1 ability and die while certainly balanced is not something anyone can know of, therefor it lacks counterplay.


You need to be in some sort of combat scenario for this to trigger, and I need to be free and within range. The first steps you could take would be, not letting me near you, or killing me first/ending combat.

No one's plans should be to roll a one, so it's not punishing a correct or positive line of play, it's making an exceptionally poor roll more punishing than it would be already. You already know rolling a 1 in combat is terrible for you.

The reason a One Shot could be seen as undesirable game design without adding in counterplay to it is as such, is it takes away player agency. If for no fault of your own you can just instantly die at anytime, why even bother?
I mean if nothing you do can effect the outcome then whats the point? It's simply not fun and we play VLDR to enjoy ourselves. The reason counterplay solves this is by allowing the other player the chance to do something about their impending doom you keep player agency intact.


This is talking from the point that there is an ability that just oneshots 100% of the time, is silent, and leaves no trace of the killer, can be done in a crowd safely, takes no item, and is destined to hit someone regardless of any action they take. Which I think is disingenuous, because of course that's bad but isn't anywhere near what we've been discussing. As well death being dealt swiftly makes you much more on edge, cautious, and suspicious of players. If you couldn't do that then the game loses a lot of that tension. If you think all your actions are meaningless if you die then that still isn't unique with oneshots. If LoF had cornered any player in this game that wasn't great at fighting, it's the exact same thing and they would die, by no fault of their own, without anything to effect the outcome because he's just that much stronger.

In VLDR one of the biggest safeguards against dying is not being alone with someone. Because then that person tells everyone else or just kills you. It didn't work for schultz because well I was willing to throw my life on the line and I barely succeeded. I would argue that no player knows they are going to die at a set point when the game starts, so this "oh I'm just going to get oneshot why even bother" mentality that you give isn't a thing. It also doesn't stop you from doing a wide array of tasks to mitigate your chances such as hanging around people, or making yourself a poor target in general through items.

And sure a power MAY have a hidden counter, but what use is that to the man who has zero knowledge of it or zero ways to learn of it? Nothing. One needs Knowledge and ability to counter something.

What I said on one shots and counter play is also relevant but to a lessar degree to all abilities. If you can do something and no one else can do jack shit about it then theirs zero agency in it. It may as well be gravity.


This is why every role in the game had something hidden. It's their own advantage that is hidden. Since the inception of VLDR there have been hidden parts of roles and it's been the player's job to navigate that. There have definitely been unfair roles but I don't think hidden abilities by themselves are intrinsically unfair. Roles that punish good play harshly are unfair, roles that are OP are unfair. I don't think my combat ability fits that, I don't even think it's the most unfair ability in the combat category.
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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby TheNiceOne16 » Fri May 22, 2020 3:52 pm

The main issue with the roll a 1 ability in combat and die is their is no reasonable way to exspect it and no resonable way to counter it in turn because of this. Not letting a random character ever near you or immediatly killing them is not something someone could naturely and logicaly do on their own. I honestly don't think anything unfair happened with your ability but I'm more speaking on hypothetically how unfair and bullshit it could have been.

I'm not saying what your saying. A Oneshot does not need to be perfect to be unfair, infact it work once out of 20 times and STILL be unfair. Any senario in which no character could have reasonably forscene or done something about and can one shot you is not fun.

Again I'm NOT saying dying makes it pointless to play but that having no choice or agency in your own outcome does.

The overwelmingly stronger character being basically unstopable is true and a problem with both gamedesign and gameplay. Is LoF an example of this? I don't think so honestly. Most players abilties and stats were atleast on a somewhat even playing flied if used correctly.

Is it fine to have SOME completly hidden abilities? Yes but rarely and it should be not considered lightly. Really in most cases I'd prefer if the ability had atleast the slightest hint of it's exsistence if only in flavor text.

I think I know why I got buthurt yesterday. Your pointing out flaws in my thinking but their not really flaws because their straight up not what I'm saying. But thats less maliciousness and more me failing to get my point across. Anyways sorry, I'll keep trying to clairfy as needed.
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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby Metrion » Fri May 22, 2020 5:30 pm

The main issue with the roll a 1 ability in combat and die is their is no reasonable way to exspect it and no resonable way to counter it in turn because of this. Not letting a random character ever near you or immediatly killing them is not something someone could naturely and logicaly do on their own. I honestly don't think anything unfair happened with your ability but I'm more speaking on hypothetically how unfair and bullshit it could have been.


It's not a random character, you're in a fight. In a fight you expect people to want to kill you. In a fight you don't want to roll a 1. It's not ever near you. It's during combat.

I'm not saying what your saying. A Oneshot does not need to be perfect to be unfair, infact it work once out of 20 times and STILL be unfair. Any senario in which no character could have reasonably forscene or done something about and can one shot you is not fun.

Again I'm NOT saying dying makes it pointless to play but that having no choice or agency in your own outcome does.


We aren't arguing fun, we're arguing balance. You said that oneshots are undesirable because they take away agency because you can day to no fault of your own. I responded saying it's disingenuous because what we're talking about doesn't have those properties. There is still very much actions you could take to avoid getting killed if you suspect someone wants to do it in one blow. I went over them.


The overwelmingly stronger character being basically unstopable is true and a problem with both gamedesign and gameplay. Is LoF an example of this? I don't think so honestly. Most players abilties and stats were atleast on a somewhat even playing flied if used correctly.


If LoF and Acidic are in combat, it is very unlikely Acidic can do anything without a good weapon and a lot of luck. If they don't then they have zero recourse. It's up to Acidic to not be put in this scenario and for LoF to try and find it. There's no real way to enforce this because not all characters are going to be combat oriented, unless you just make everyone very generic, or do something else I can't think of.

Is it fine to have SOME completly hidden abilities? Yes but rarely and it should be not considered lightly. Really in most cases I'd prefer if the ability had atleast the slightest hint of it's exsistence if only in flavor text.


Everything about a role is concealed. Stats often have no connection or can't be discerned from appearance. All abilities are hidden, and items are hidden. All with no clues if the player doesn't want to dish out any. Many concepts simply don't work without being hidden and the metagame knowledge of them doesn't mesh in an RP game like VLDR. I think certain types of hidden abilities need to be avoided particularly ones that punish evil behaviour too harshly like revives and such, but I disagree that they should all be very hinted at because it would remove the majority of every role ever.
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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby Nellyfox » Fri May 22, 2020 5:31 pm

TheNiceOne16 wrote:Is it fine to have SOME completly hidden abilities? Yes but rarely and it should be not considered lightly. Really in most cases I'd prefer if the ability had atleast the slightest hint of it's exsistence if only in flavor text.

Next game I will give you the evil dude and post the rolecard publicly, if that is not acceptable then I will allow players to roll INT and if they roll high enough they will get fancy flavortext saying "Something is off about The Nice One..."

Not only does this buff INT, but it also means your inevitable insane abilities (which are in place to help your absurd wincon) are to be expected and people can prepare as they need to.
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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby Chemist1422 » Fri May 22, 2020 5:35 pm

I think an ability is unfun to play against if you can't do anything to expect OR counter it

You can't really expect getting one-shot but you can counter it by avoiding combat
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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby Metrion » Fri May 22, 2020 5:44 pm

I think I know why I got buthurt yesterday. Your pointing out flaws in my thinking but their not really flaws because their straight up not what I'm saying. But thats less maliciousness and more me failing to get my point across. Anyways sorry, I'll keep trying to clairfy as needed.


I'm trying to keep this on point and respond to what I believe you are saying. You don't quote so it's been difficult with your formatting/posting style. I don't really want to keep making an argument on this. It seems we just have core differences on what a game should be focusing on, and death being handled in regards to how the deceased should feel.

I don't think VLDR is a perfect game mechanically. Which is why each game evolves, and nothing is acutely static. I think it's a vehicle for RP around scenarios rife with murder/betrayal, mixed with exploration, intrigue and whatever elements the host wants. I think roles can differently interact in ways that would cause poor feelings, and I think dying feels bad, but I also think those are necessary for the game to function the way it does, at least in the way that a regular host could pull off. Of course if everyone was happy about every outcome it would be better. But this is a game with betraying at it's very essence.
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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby TheNiceOne16 » Fri May 22, 2020 5:54 pm

Nellyfox wrote:
TheNiceOne16 wrote:Is it fine to have SOME completly hidden abilities? Yes but rarely and it should be not considered lightly. Really in most cases I'd prefer if the ability had atleast the slightest hint of it's exsistence if only in flavor text.

Next game I will give you the evil dude and post the rolecard publicly, if that is not acceptable then I will allow players to roll INT and if they roll high enough they will get fancy flavortext saying "Something is off about The Nice One..."

Not only does this buff INT, but it also means your inevitable insane abilities (which are in place to help your absurd wincon) are to be expected and people can prepare as they need to.


I actually really like the flavor text idea maybe something different but something along those vains but instead of focusing on my evilness it instead focuses on my ability if that makes sense. And obviously role card posting is bad.
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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby PolyesterHomes » Fri May 22, 2020 6:15 pm

I was about to go on a discussion about this games AB mechanics in this game in particular, how the smart move would have been to stay out and only go in to betray if the other person went inside, and talked about how we failed to do the obvious thing. Nelly's repsonse is interesting because the ability doesn't change the betray/ally mechanic besides... well, robbing the entire fucking game of crucial knowledge that literally everyone's plans would revolve around. This solution just... doesn't work when it comes to counterplay. The ability boils down to "Secretly screw over a player and only have them figure out when they die or when they try to leave". At least when you get screwed by getting betrayed you have some sort of reaction. This mechanic just doesn't let you have that. It just fucking sucks to play against. It's not as broken as I made Psychic Surge, but at least Psychic Surge punishes failure if you go for the throat and has an element of randomness. After watching several people try, I've come to a conclusion:

AB games are bad and I no longer think they can be reasonably balanced. Roles that manipulate it, either by concealing information, changing the lineups, or some other method, just make them worse.

Also, TNO is right, stronger abilities should have more foreshadowing or glaringly obvious. Roles that allow you to lie about one of the key interactions of the game that everyone based around, regardless of counterplay or what could be done about it, are just a bad idea in general.

Overall, I dislike what I did with Psychic Surge. I also dislike that information concealment ability.

that's it honestly.
"Whisper in the dark. The battle may yet be won."
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Re: Zero Escape: VLDR - 初/MEGA浸透

Postby TheNiceOne16 » Fri May 22, 2020 6:48 pm

Yeah I could keep talking but your right this hasn't been that productive besides making the point the role was balanced atleast combat wise.
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