Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Arcthurus » Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:22 pm

You're assuming they're gonna fight. What if they don't?


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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby PolyesterHomes » Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:23 pm

Arcthurus wrote:You're assuming they're gonna fight. What if they don't?


I guess that's more likely to happen. If that occurred I wouldn't trust either of them. I'd still probably leave them alone, if I was feeling murderous i'd pick off one of the group members quietly if I could.
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Arcthurus » Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:43 pm

My point with that is suddenly if you're not involved in the group where double betray happened, it becomes less of a problem and imperative to enforce this 'rule' of never betraying. It becomes an issue between those people to really solve amongst themselves, while the group keeps mind of it and uses that information for the rest of the game influencing how they view that person and hence how they vote. Which is arguably a completely valid thing because if you betray, you do accept that people will view you with some level of suspicion at the very least.

Another thought experiment is, what do you do if neither of two people admit to be the betrayer? Are you gonna kill both anyways to ensure the 'rule' is followed through? Are you killing one innocent person just to nullify a risk? Assume you can't tell who is more trustworthy, they're both well-mannered, etc.


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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby PolyesterHomes » Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:52 pm

Arcthurus wrote:My point with that is suddenly if you're not involved in the group where double betray happened, it becomes less of a problem and imperative to enforce this 'rule' of never betraying. It becomes an issue between those people to really solve amongst themselves, while the group keeps mind of it and uses that information for the rest of the game influencing how they view that person and hence how they vote. Which is arguably a completely valid thing because if you betray, you do accept that people will view you with some level of suspicion at the very least.

Another thought experiment is, what do you do if neither of two people admit to be the betrayer? Are you gonna kill both anyways to ensure the 'rule' is followed through? Are you killing one innocent person just to nullify a risk? Assume you can't tell who is more trustworthy, they're both well-mannered, etc.


In the game, assuming they're equally well mannered, they both get killed. Should have stood you ground.

In real life, I guess we could lock them up and prevent them from voting in the future?
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Arcthurus » Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:58 pm

And would you accept being hypothetically killed as a casualty if your partner betrayed simply because you were their partner and can't prove your vote? And in IRL, would you accept having your own chances of escape jeopardized, potentially betrayed, for the same reasons?


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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby PolyesterHomes » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:10 pm

Arcthurus wrote:And would you accept being hypothetically killed as a casualty if your partner betrayed simply because you were their partner and can't prove your vote? And in IRL, would you accept having your own chances of escape jeopardized, potentially betrayed, for the same reasons?


I'd probably attack my partner in the booth of that was allowed. IRL by the point that happened I would be convinced the people around me aren't 'normal folk like me', so I would defend myself. The main purpose of the strategy is to prevent a group of normal people from betraying each other. If the group has people with malicious intent they value over their own lives the strategy falls apart. I'd certainly defend myself, but i'd probably lose.

In game, I book it away from the scene and hide. I just need to be faster than the other guy.

Truth be told it usually collapses the second someone picks betray. It's a flimsy strategy, and a savvy person could see this coming a mile away. However, unless the betrayer is a gambling man, they will probably refrain from doing so until at least one other person has done so already. If everyone is waiting for the first person to betray, it never starts.


So, you may ask, why use the strategy?

It's simple. I think dying by that method is much less likely than dying due to being left behind.
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Arcthurus » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:19 pm

Alright.

The point I wanna make is that no matter how many incentives you tack to betraying or how you balance the matrix to make betraying look more favorable, there's still the fact that resorting to killing is treated as the easiest/simplest way to deal with any problem, and there's essentially almost always a 'no forgiveness' policy for any problem. Of course someone who betrays at first and allies afterwards doesn't happen, points aside, because usually that person isn't even allowed to be able to make that second vote. And this kind of thing isn't something a host can fix.


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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby ChubbyMooshroom9 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:25 pm

Bro just fix the rolls
/s

The biggest problem is indeed the reactions of other players, but we need to find a solution in spite of that.
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Arcthurus » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:26 pm

chubby can you explain the thing with uas and escaping getting harder for those of us who werent in it


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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Hawkwing425 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:28 pm

Players reacting harshly to betrayal will always be a thing, and murder will always be the solution of at least SOME people. I'd say that making betrayal more beneficial to the betrayer is a good way to do it. In addition, empowering a role that is meant to cause chaos a la betrayal may help. After all, the first betrayal is like dominos...
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby ChubbyMooshroom9 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:31 pm

Yes I can

So say first AB game the chance to survive your escape is 100%(when you first spawn, for example). Every phase after that(roaming and AB) I knocked it down by 10%. The numbers can be adjusted for your game of tastes of course, but following the course I used people who double betrayed would have a 70% chance to win, while people who just spammed ally and waited for everyone would have a measly 50% chance to win the game. Waiting any longer jeopardizes your escape into negative odds instead of a coin flip, while betraying puts it in your favor.

The problem of being attacked for betraying remains, but now you have a reason to IC and OOC. Probably needs something else to work with it, but it’s only had one game with it run so I can’t say for sure.
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Cyantic » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:35 pm

i'd argue betrayals are more acceptable as the game goes on. from a starting point, most wincons are escape and while the mentality of winning is less important then playing the character, it's still your wincon. from the start there's no story incentive to go away from this and because of that, betrayals are very negative. you hardly want to be paired up against a betrayer who will absolutely jeopardise your escape and there's only a limited amount you can do to control for this. the best way to do that is to kill betrayers as there's not really any other way to handle it. one betrayal could (theoretically) spell doom for you as all it takes is one person to leave for it all to go to hell

however, i think betrayals are more viable as time goes on when you have met and created some form of understanding with the group. you can at least have alliances and groups that will stick together and reasons like 'you were afraid' or 'doing it for the greater good' or whatever are more likely to be believed. i think a few games reflect this, most notably CBS at the end where arguably mags was responsible for getting everyone but cam killed, but had reasons and was generally 'trusted' so to speak to makee that call. the alternative wincon helped formulate this as well, but i think in general if you could make betraying round 2 and 3 more viable, you'd see more betrayals as characters manage to manipulate and work their way around the game, and as character reasons may take primacy instead of wincons. IMO a solution that makes character interaction (and genuinely, i know that's fucking difficult) is preferable over buffing betraying itself, though i'm not saying buffing betrayals isn't a good idea either. just that getting +2 or +3 for betraying may not be a lot when compared to getting a beat down and sorta only leaves designated killing characters as the only ones able to survive it if betrayals immediately lead to kill or be killed, and sorta creates a negative feedback loop. you betrayed, then you had to kill two people to stay alive, oh shit you just killed two people, and that's certainly going to piss people off. one could state that forcing group interaction and more severe and serious actions in the first roaming phase might actually be the best way to create more betrayals, as you're working from something messy instead of utterly blank

my two cents on the matter, im going back to circuit design and crying as my forefathers did
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Cyantic » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:39 pm

OH, one last thing. i think thome has the right idea for some games in SUaD as well, though arguably SUaD is the game that makes betrayal the least viable. ill probably touch on this more when the game ends, at least to me imo
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Arcthurus » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:59 pm

ehhh im not sure i like the idea of leaving whether you win or not up to chance, you sort of dampen a good portion of motivation to play a character who does want to ally thrice but doesnt necessarily enforce that as a do or die rule for the whole group which is not the kind of character i want to stop existing. and i dont mean in the sense of 'oh im gonna lose this game so i just wont do that' i mean in the 'my character will canonically die'; if you allowed my character to live and escape even if i the player lost then id be totally fine with it though


stronger earlier interaction is a good idea even if i dont know how exactly to induce that as a host, maybe special events for the first roaming or something. if you have more to work with rp wise and maybe action wise then you could make betrayal more pallatable


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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Nellyfox » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:03 pm

So the first thing I want to point out is Chubby is wrong; people aren't attacking betrayers anymore because no one is really betraying anymore. He's also incorrect when he said Munch got attacked twice for betraying; this isn't the case, as in UaS Munch attacked me for betraying him and so I attacked him in return in self-defense. Watch your step!

But considering Theta, Aurelia and Magnolia, I have a pretty good frame of reference when talking about this stuff. So here's what I think...

Schultz is wrong. He's forgetting a very powerful incentive for betraying, which is crafting a genuinely good character.

I need everyone to picture themselves in a hypothetical Ambidex Game with eleven strangers. Based on the settings from our past VLDR games, these eleven strangers can be anything from doctors (Lita) and scholars (Cyrus) to serial killers (Lucius), bloodlusters (Juri), and gun-wielding aliens (Shrike). You are threatened with death if you hit 0 or below metaphorical points, but you can throw these strangers away and get closer to securing your escape by robbing their points. The escape door only opens once, as you're told.

You can ally because you're scared of the repercussions, or you can make the logical choice and betray. There is actually no reason to NOT betray considering your opponent(s) are making the same exact judgment call that YOU are.

There is no reason to care about the stranger(s) you're up against. VLDR takes several weeks to complete, but in-game, roaming periods only last an hour or two at a maximum. In VLR, roaming periods lasted 30-45 minutes and had travel time to account for. For this reason romance in VLDR is incredibly unrealistic, but that's neither here nor there.

Thus there are two problems related to betraying, which are why people do not vote it, and they are:

1) People playing garbage characters.
2) The immediate consequences.

Regarding #1, there are Luna characters that wouldn't betray a stranger. So this doesn't apply to all of them. However, there are many that seem to lose all common sense when suddenly thrown into a death game, which seems incredibly upside-down. Aurelia would never betray anyone, hence why she didn't in Source Code and As We Fall. Magnolia, however, had an abusive childhood, and had no reason to care about the eleven others in the same situation as her — hence her betrayal. I believe she even expressed that she believed others would make the same call she did!

Theta is an interesting character whose betrayal never backfired. She and Franca never met any of the lowlights of betraying, and they both had a similar mindset on hitting the betray vote in the first place. She was successful in creating conflict but meeting no punishment for it. Good on you, Theta, for keeping your sense (despite honestly having none) and being able to successfully betray. You too, Russie.

Regarding #2, I have a lot of feelings about people going out of their way to harm betrayers as soon as results are posted. Since analogies are very effective at showing people their idiocy, I'm going to share a few examples:

I walk into a sandwich shop and order a turkey sandwich. I'm waiting for my order as several other people order after me. They call out that my turkey sandwich is ready and a man grabs it and leaves. That's my turkey sandwich and so I leave the sandwich shop, follow him, then beat him up for stealing my sandwich.

I'm in class working on a group project that is going well. I overhear another group that's bickering because one person hasn't written his part of the essay. I walk over to the group and stab the slacker with my pencil and then elect myself to watch over that group to make sure the slacker does his work.

My sister enters my room while I'm not home to look for something and ends up knocking over a lamp I was quite fond of (it's my only source of light, how could she!). When I come home and find out, after she apologies I beat her up until she's unconscious.

In every single example I have painted myself as a complete savage. And every single example happens in VLDR after a betray occurs. It's downright annoying because the three behaviors listed above would not fly in society, so how come all natural human emotion and intelligence is thrown out the window in VLDR? For those who have not played or seen a playthrough of VLR, I highly recommend it for your sake, even if you only view the post-AB Game events because not a single one of them with a betray play out how they do in VLDR. You know why? Because the writers actually know how people work.

If someone flies into a fit of rage at their opponent for betraying them, then, sure, that's their opponent. But butting into another group's business is so irritating and entitled. You would not be the hero in real life.

From a mechanical standpoint there is nothing to fix about betrays. The system works. It's the players that seem to screw it up each time. There have been games with betrays that have gone well, for example the aforementioned Ten-Fortyfive Westward. So focus on that instead of in-game incentives. If you absolutely need to look at how games work for betrays, then SSL and BDE should be where you look first.

Also vote manipulation abilities suck not only because it makes voting stupid, but because no one uses any logical in-game reasoning for one to exist. Because some guy without connections to the mastermind behind the death game should have the ability to flip votes...wait, how does he even do that in the first place?
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby LordofFail » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:06 pm

I think the big issue with the AB game in its current format is the meta associated with it.

As discussed earlier, a betray vote isn't betraying the opponent, it's betraying the group. Anyone who votes betray is not to be trusted and is essentially excommunicated from the group.

Anonymity helps prevent this somewhat, but as Arcthurus mentioned earlier, it does take away the trust aspect because you don't know who you are against, so you lose out on potential character interactions and developments.

Maybe somewhere in the middle could work, as in you know your opponent and after the round ends only you and your opponent know the results of the game, with points not being publicized.

Sort of like in IIB, but with the pairings being declared, just no point totals being shown. (I think Met did this in BDE? It seemed to work pretty well from what I remember but I was paired with milte 3 times for it. Also there was no death for going below 0 points, just a change in wincon, so it made betraying less of a threat.)

But I do think the big problem as it stands isn't with the AB game itself, but the meta that we have developed around it. Players are expected to ally or be killed by the group. I remember older VLDR games where people who betrayed just had more points, it wasn't a whole "kill all betrayers" type thing. Most games had at least one betray in the first round which really messed up the point totals going forward.

As it stands with the current format, if you don't betray in the first round, betraying in the second round serves no purpose unless you have other means to get BP, as if you start with 4 points and get 3 for ally/ally and another 4 for betray/ally you are stuck at 11 (I think games do this intentionally to prevent someone from leaving after the second round, essentially guaranteeing a minimum of 3 roaming phases - I know I at least do this in my games, I use the minimum 3 roaming phase rule to plan out and structure the game with lore drops and other scripted events to keep things interesting).

I do think we should try to experiment with different things in games, because currently the AB game isn't so tense or exciting as it once was, it feels almost procedural in nature with everyone voting ally.
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Hawkwing425 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:13 pm

I really want to make a comment about what Nelly said in regards to one thing, but I'll have to wait until after SUaD is over, since it involves spoiler stuff. What I will say is that Villik was definitely a Luna-type. I'm really happy with how their story turned out, even if it was entirely improv, but Villik really was only as good as they were because of the game they ended up in- no betrayals, no deaths. It was a good end for my geologist, and it leaves a lot of post-game possibilities open for them, story-wise. Hal was... a mess, as my first character, so I won't go into him as much.

There is a reason to care about strangers, though, which is basic empathy. It's hard to hurt a person. It's hard to even be mean to a person, for most. I feel really bad about cruelty, even that which I do to my characters. I try really hard to make silver linings in everything, and that's one of my weaknesses as a writer- I'm too nice. I want to one day make an unrepentant asshole or a hopeless situation. That's a bit of a human thing- after all, compassion is a human trait that kept our species alive for a damn long time. Cooperation.

I'd make an argument for vote manipulation if it has a good enough reason. Someone just being able to alter votes or BP? Probably not possible, and why would Zero or whoever the mastermind is even let someone who could pull that kind of stunt into the game to begin with? However, there are ways to work in that kind of ability into a person, depending on the story's plot. Or just make Zero the vote manipulator.
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby LordofFail » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:15 pm

I think it also depends on the characters we play. Some characters are more cooperative and group-oriented, while some are more chaotic. And some are just neutral and don't care either way.

I think lately we've been leaning heavily towards the cooperative characters over the chaotic ones, perhaps in part because the cooperative characters tend to live longer and we want to live longer to be able to rp more and experience more of the game (especially as games become more lore-intensive).
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Nellyfox » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:20 pm

Yes, empathy exists. That's why some characters in VLR don't vote betray at all, such as Luna, and I believe Tenmyouji doesn't betray at all either. However when you have literal killers in the equation, there's no reason for them to vote to care about others. And even if you're empathetic, once you realize your opponent(s) may not be, that's when you toss your empathy away.

Of course, I think in the end, I would ally in a real-life Ambidex Game situation. But it wouldn't be as simple as /enter booth /ally. There are a ton of characters who should not be voting this way, but there are some that should, hence what I said.

Vote manipulation exists to cause chaos and be disruptive. They were fine back before the Renaissance when roleplay wasn't a standard. Now they just don't make any sense.

Could practically rewrite Lord of the Flies with VLDR characters at this rate.
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Hawkwing425 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:21 pm

One way I've tried to stop myself from playing the same characters over and over is to wait for my role to pick a character. Hal, as my first character, was an exception because he's one of my "main" characters, and I wanted to playtest his personality. Despite not living for more than an hour in-game, I did get a few things out of that game for me to look into that I had overlooked before, such as how Hal acts when genuinely angry and how willing to kill he really is. Villik was chosen for the Vision role because, funny enough, they're my only seer out of all hundred-or-so characters. I actually had absolutely no personality for them and based it off of the stats and abilities I got, as well as the little blurb at the top of the initial role card. They were definitely a cooperative type if only because they started as a massive pushover and then entered their Good Route.

Also, what's the Renaissance?
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Nellyfox » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:25 pm

Renaissance is all games after Today is Tomorrow. All the games before that is obviously before the Renaissance. We call it that because VLDR was dead for a few years before TiT kickstarted it up again.
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby LordofFail » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:27 pm

Hawkwing425 wrote:One way I've tried to stop myself from playing the same characters over and over is to wait for my role to pick a character. Hal, as my first character, was an exception because he's one of my "main" characters, and I wanted to playtest his personality. Despite not living for more than an hour in-game, I did get a few things out of that game for me to look into that I had overlooked before, such as how Hal acts when genuinely angry and how willing to kill he really is. Villik was chosen for the Vision role because, funny enough, they're my only seer out of all hundred-or-so characters. I actually had absolutely no personality for them and based it off of the stats and abilities I got, as well as the little blurb at the top of the initial role card. They were definitely a cooperative type if only because they started as a massive pushover and then entered their Good Route.

Also, what's the Renaissance?


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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Cyantic » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:28 pm

i heavily disagree with nelly's assessment. there is every reason to ally in a serious, real life situation. these people are humans just like you, and while they might be strangers, that doesn't mean throwing them away is the logical choice. sure, you run that risk, but you also have to acknowledge that these are people too, and betraying and leaving someone to die is... not exactly that great? at all? it's different in a game, but it is by no means the logical answer to betray. equally, you're seriously running a risk by letting these people live in such a 'real' situation. they could get everyone killed if you don't do anything - such extremism is probably rather justified! this is still a very logical and self consistent outlook to have - and really, it's probably the kind of outlook one wants people to have, a positive 'we're all gonna get out of here' attitude. not the same thing as making an interesting game, but it does irk me that the argument that 'betrayal is the only logical option' is really flawed

the ab game can sometimes feel like a formality but can rarely shake up the game in a huge way (CBS) and i'd kind of like that to happen more. give people more reasons to have this jumbled mess - sure, they betrayed, but they told you about their kid and how they're afraid of what happens if they leave, and you worked well together. can you really do that to them? especially if you don't know the person who allied... you can construct a narrative that way. lof hits upon a really good point that betraying can only be so strong because the game should probably last for a decent while - that's what people signed up for, anyway! it's a bit of a balancing act in that players can't leave too soon or possibly cut drastically short the game, but the benefits for betrayal are also weaker for it. more time means all the more reason someone's going to beat you over the head with a lead pipe

unrelated but spoiler just in case
Spoiler: tenmyoldy betrays really frequently as does most of the cast of VLR - and he has really strong, solid reasons to do so which i feel is probably a good example of what the AB game should be. he knows the world is ruined, he knows that he brought his kid into this, and he wants to get his kid out no matter what to return to his life. sure the world's ruined, and he knows this knowledge will probably get out to people who don't know this, and who knows how they'll react. probably pretty poorly! THAT is good, strong reasons to betray which makes him betraying not actually an evil act - he's by all rights one of the good characters in the game. it's just that his reasons make it complicated and difficult which make it fun.
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Arcthurus » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:28 pm

Another thing to remember is sometimes people will act irrationally, selfishly, out of fear or panic or pride, etc. and that doesn't mean they're iredeemable.

I also think it's amusing to believe doing whats best for the group warrants capital punishment when the people youre "saving" could just as easily be terrible people if not WORSE people than the one you're killing.


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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby ChubbyMooshroom9 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:33 pm

Nellyfox wrote:So the first thing I want to point out is Chubby is wrong; people aren't attacking betrayers anymore because no one is really betraying anymore. He's also incorrect when he said Munch got attacked twice for betraying; this isn't the case, as in UaS Munch attacked me for betraying him and so I attacked him in return in self-defense. Watch your step!

Sue me. I agree with what you said in the post fundamentally, but I disagree fixing the meta is simple enough to do it like that.

Like, sure I didn't get attacked IMMEDIATELY in Nosedive for betraying round 1, but I also snuck away into a coyote filled desert to do so.

Cyantic wrote:tenmyoldy betrays really frequently as does most of the cast of VLR - and he has really strong, solid reasons to do so which i feel is probably a good example of what the AB game should be. he knows the world is ruined, he knows that he brought his kid into this, and he wants to get his kid out no matter what to return to his life. sure the world's ruined, and he knows this knowledge will probably get out to people who don't know this, and who knows how they'll react. probably pretty poorly! THAT is good, strong reasons to betray which makes him betraying not actually an evil act - he's by all rights one of the good characters in the game. it's just that his reasons make it complicated and difficult which make it fun.

except you can't do that in VLDR without making characters beforehand when most people prefer to make their own
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