Vigi

[Muhammedruler]

Vigi should be able to kill WW when the nights are not on a full moon

[Julien8080]

Werewolf is underpowered, and the last thing it needs is a nerf. Why do you think this should be? Remember, Balance > Lore.

[Muhammedruler]

well its only fair that vigi should be able to kill at least one immune role

[Julien8080]

well its only fair that vigi should be able to kill at least one immune role

Only "fair"? Why is that fair to Werewolf? His winrate is terrible already.

Why does Vig need to be able to kill an immune role? Seriously, I have no idea where you are coming from on this.

[MisaTange]

Vigis are already able to kill 3 scum (nontown) in a RP game: NE (assuming not executioner), Mafioso, and RM. Hell, Vigis can kill a non-town-siding survivor (not voting with town, claiming d1 and legitimately afking, "im not voting, im neutral", etc.) if they need to. Besides, it'll be terrible if we step toward the "ww is no longer immune on even nights" pathway again.

[chitownmvp01]

NKs do not need to be nerfed. The WW used to be not night immune on non-full moon nights, but it was then made night immune on every night because it rarely won.

/no support

[HereThereEverywhere]

Vigi should be able to kill WW when the nights are not on a full moon

This used to be how it worked. Werewolf's winrate was utter garbage(still is). You said it's "only fair" to the Vigi, but that's far from true. I'll tell you a little secret, it doesn't actually matter if the Werewolf is immune! If they are, you can accuse them in the daytime and get them lynched, like a good Townie! Oh, but what if you die that night you shoot them, I hear you ask? Well if you're actually asking that you need to learn how to use your freaking will.

[chitownmvp01]

How to kill immune roles as Vigilante:

>shoot an immune
>call them out
>get the immune lynched

Veteran can kill immunes because it can't kill directly. A non-immunity piercing veteran in the current state of the game is not a powerful role at all.

Vigilante can kill its own targets, and can still call out and kill immunes by lynch, it just promotes more skillful play. Vigilante, bar the cancerous guilt mechanic, is fine as is.

The guilt mechanic is fine. Usually players die of guilt because they made a stupid decision to random shoot or something. It's a good consequence for being dumb. It holds the Vigilante accountable for his own actions, just like the Jailor losing all remaining executions if they execute a town role.

[chitownmvp01]

Shooting town players who are scummy is dumb?

I'm not saying guilt should not exist. I'm saying either Vigilante and Jailor should have the same guilt, or Jailor's guilt should be worse than vigilante's. And since the suicide mechanic is complete garbage, then Vigilante needs Jailor's guilt.

Shooting town players who are scummy isn't dumb, especially if they are one of multiple players vying for 1 spot on the role list. It just rarely happens compared to dumb random shooting of townies.

[chitownmvp01]

Giving Vig Jailor's guilt would keep GT'ers in check while rewarding good play in Ranked.

That makes town slightly more powerful though (1 additional townie stays alive). A lot of focus has been put on helping scum win more often.

[chitownmvp01]

If you want balance, you need a balanced base. That would involve things like the Ranked rolelist and game integrity, the jailor's guilt falling under the second.

As I said, I think the guilt mechanic is fine as is, but you're entitled to your own opinion.

[Spectre0]

Giving Vig Jailor's guilt would keep GT'ers in check while rewarding good play in Ranked.

That makes town slightly more powerful though (1 additional townie stays alive).

The overall effect is still a loss. A townie still dies.

[chitownmvp01]

Giving Vig Jailor's guilt would keep GT'ers in check while rewarding good play in Ranked.

That makes town slightly more powerful though (1 additional townie stays alive).

The overall effect is still a loss. A townie still dies.

1 instead of 2.

[Julien8080]

Giving Vig Jailor's guilt would keep GT'ers in check while rewarding good play in Ranked.

That makes town slightly more powerful though (1 additional townie stays alive).

The overall effect is still a loss. A townie still dies.

1 instead of 2.

I think one townie dead and one made into Citizen is enough of an impediment to the townies, especially taking into account the ways that Vig can be manipulated into shooting wrongly (a townie acting scummy, Transporter/Witch messing up kill).

[mdb1023]

omfg not this stupid debate again. How many times do I have to explain why you're wrong about giving vig the jailor's guilt before you stop pushing it?

[Julien8080]

omfg not this stupid debate again. How many times do I have to explain why you're wrong about giving vig the jailor's guilt before you stop pushing it?

Until there is a reasonable and relatively uncontested explanation as to why not. Don't act like you've won this debate tons of times before.

Gamethrowing is discouraged, or at least further prevented by Vig losing shots.

Vig is punished enough by losing shots and a townie, especially since it often isn't his fault (Trans, Witch, scummy townie).

Why should Vig die but Jailor only lose kills and still be able to protect/roleblock people? They have a much more assured kill, after all, since they can talk with victim beforehand, it's harder for Witch to force the kill, they pierce immunity, and it's impossible for Trans to interfere with the killed target.

[mdb1023]

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=59017


oh but I have won this debate. refer to this thread since i'm really not in the mood to rehash this shit for the umpteenth time. if that's not good enough for you, here's another:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=53220

[HereThereEverywhere]

Why should the Vigi be punished severely for killing a scummy Townie?

[Julien8080]

"I won this debate because I feel like it. Now read these threads, which totally* and completely** decimate the above arguments in every way."

You act like these threads win you the argument. If you don't want to debate, that's absolutely fine. But don't go strutting around like you won the argument just because it's been discussed before in those threads, in which I didn't see anyone's opinion change in the slightest.

*attempt to **sort of

[mdb1023]

literally every point that you've made about jailor's guilt for the vig has been countered within these threads. I would love to debate, but right now i'm not in the mood to rehash the same stupid shit over and over again when I've already made points that counter your points. Go ahead and actually read them and you'll understand.

[SkorumpowanyGlut]

"How to kill immune roles as Vigilante:

>shoot an immune
>call them out
>get the immune lynched"

I look forward to more guides like this one.

[mdb1023]

Well "I'm wrong" would be nice, but we both know that's not going to happen. I mean if you can't counter the points I made to counter your points, your argument really doesn't hold up, does it?

[Parallax7]

I think a decent buff for Vigilantee concerning shooting could be, if Vigilantee shoots an immune twice then it'll pierce immunity. All other NK's can bypass immunity. So I suppose that'd be fair.

[TimeToReap]

I think a decent buff for Vigilantee concerning shooting could be, if Vigilantee shoots an immune twice then it'll pierce immunity. All other NK's can bypass immunity. So I suppose that'd be fair.

What kind of Serial Killer do you know that bypasses Night Immunity.

[Spectre0]

I think a decent buff for Vigilantee concerning shooting could be, if Vigilantee shoots an immune twice then it'll pierce immunity. All other NK's can bypass immunity. So I suppose that'd be fair.

There is absolutely no situation in which that's useful.

Calling them out in day chat is quicker, and if Town doesn't have majority and it takes vig two nights to kill they've lost no matter what.