Vampire rework

[BPsycho2]

So, none of us like vampires, yes? Here's what I've done.

You know those pesky "immune to vampires, immune to vampires, immune to vampires, immune to vampires....." Messages? Don't they just drive you up the wall? Well look at them now. They're relatively good messages!

You can now win with any nontown. Mr.Oz 4k says that this just adds pseudoMafia? Wrong. There's a maximum of two vampires at any given time.

Hate this because it's all about "reproduce now" rather than good gameplay? Well, you're wrong. Old vampires simply had to keep spreading, and that will be kept to an extent. But by winning with every evil, vampires simply have to keep their 1 Vampire alive and well, along with an evil role.

Is it too hard because your friends will kill you? No! Here's some night immunity (vigilantes can pierce). That's not OP because the invest results are designed to be terrible and you can be killed by every town killer.

Results too bad for an NE? Well you're in luck. Only one vampire needs to win for the whole party to succeed.

Vampire
Neutral (Evil)
Abilities: convert a town member (only town members)
Attributes: Night Immune (Can be pierced by Vigilante), Conversion immune, Detection immune
Max vampires are 2.
Goal: have any vampire survive to see the town lose.
Invest results: Your target is pure evil, they are either a framer, or a vampire! (Bad invest results because they're powerful. Also, their goal isn't to survive, it's to have A SINGLE VAMPIRE survive to see the town lose)
This way, Vampire is very good, but can't ruin games as much.

Also, 2Vamps Max no Hunter is very good.

But if there is a hunter, this:
Spoiler: Vampire Hunter
Neutral (Benign)
Goal: Survive to see the Vampires lose

Night immune, detection immune, unique role
Target self: nothing
Target other: visit someone.
If your target IS a vampire, the Vampire will be staked
If your target is visited by a Vampire, they are conversion immune (Allows evil roles to claim that they were visited)
If you are visited by a vampire, the vampire will be staked

[Mace8937]

Why is the VH NB if it kills?

[Flamingkamikaze]

Why is the VH NB if it kills?

Seriously though, NB's can kill, IDK why everyone keeps saying that "it can't be benign if it kills" (._. )

Because that isn't what the word benign means.

[cxl1024]

Why is the VH NB if it kills?

Seriously though, NB's can kill, IDK why everyone keeps saying that "it can't be benign if it kills" (._. )

Because that isn't what the word benign means.

Killing is the exact opposite of what benign means. Users need to have a dictionary on stand-by when posting.

[PBR]

Not everyone dislikes being vampire. I don't like being it only if there are too many unbiteable roles.

[JazzMusicStops]

Better idea
Remove VH
Rework Vampire into NK

[Mroz4k]

Seriously though, NB's can kill, IDK why everyone keeps saying that "it can't be benign if it kills" (._. )

Because that isn't what the word benign means.

Flaming, you are using real life definition of a word to justify game mechanic. Pls. Its a game, it doesnt have to make perfect sense. Kirize is correct, Benigns can kill, but they need to do that in a fashion that makes their ability have similar impact on the game as other Neutral Benigns.

However, this still is better as a Neutral Evil - since it has similar win conditions like the Witch.

However, its still pretty bad suggestion. For starters, if there is Hunter and only one Vampire initially, Hunter can get lucky and kill Vampire in firstround, if Vamp gets unlucky and fails to convert. Besides, it can now side with other scum, while converting Town members to another Vampires. Thats beyond broken - lets say Vampires decide to side up with Mafia. So, now Mafia has ability to convert Town members to pseudoMafia members, while still having ability to kill them, and influence them with other Mafia roles. It basically completedly takes away Town´s hopes to win. Even if Town had Mayor who would reveal Day 1 and started whispernet, it wouldnt matter... Town would still be destined to lose, because Vampires can take over the most powerful Town roles, while Mafia kills off the rest. Then they hang the NK and voala! Mafia + Vampires win. Every single fucking time.

This is not a fix, this breaks the concept even further. NO conversion role concept which creates its own team CAN win with anyone else but the usual neutral Neutrals. They can NEVER be allowed to win with another major faction, that means no winning with Town, Mafia, or Neutral Killing roles.

[cxl1024]

Seriously though, NB's can kill, IDK why everyone keeps saying that "it can't be benign if it kills" (._. )

Because that isn't what the word benign means.

Flaming, you are using real life definition of a word to justify game mechanic. Pls. Its a game, it doesnt have to make perfect sense. Kirize is correct, Benigns can kill, but they need to do that in a fashion that makes their ability have similar impact on the game as other Neutral Benigns.
[/b]

How can a benign kill? The only NBs are amnes and survivors, which cannot kill. And I get that's its a game, but the alignments should be straightforward. What if we put the doctor under the faction NK, and said guys cmon, it's no big deal.

[BPsycho2]

Reduce charges to 1?

Add the preparing for hunt thing?

Also NBs can kill.

1. Jester and Exe were NB that got moved to NE.
They're the more obvious bunch.

2 amnesiac can burn people alive

3. Survivor can vote.

[cxl1024]

Reduce charges to 1?

Add the preparing for hunt thing?

Also NBs can kill.

1. Jester and Exe were NB that got moved to NE.
They're the more obvious bunch.

2 amnesiac can burn people alive

3. Survivor can vote.

By that logic, everyone is a killer because everyone can vote. Amnesiac cannot burn people alive unless they turn into an arsonist, in which case their faction CHANGES, but when they are amne they cannot kill. A survivor is an entirely neutral role. Amne is neutral until it picks a side.

[JazzMusicStops]

The "It can't be Benign because it kills" argument is dumb

[Mroz4k]

Seriously though, NB's can kill, IDK why everyone keeps saying that "it can't be benign if it kills" (._. )

Because that isn't what the word benign means.

Flaming, you are using real life definition of a word to justify game mechanic. Pls. Its a game, it doesnt have to make perfect sense. Kirize is correct, Benigns can kill, but they need to do that in a fashion that makes their ability have similar impact on the game as other Neutral Benigns.
[/b]

How can a benign kill? The only NBs are amnes and survivors, which cannot kill. And I get that's its a game, but the alignments should be straightforward. What if we put the doctor under the faction NK, and said guys cmon, it's no big deal.

There is a Neutral Benign role "Double" in the Forum Mafia role cards. Check it in the FM section of the forums - you will see, its a Benign role that kills and then takes the role of their victim on their own. I actually played with it in two games, and it seems to be pretty balanced, much more balanced then Amnesiac, for example.

Benign is not a role that "doesnt kill" - besides, if this is how you are prioritizing it, what about Amnesiac, becoming a Serial Killer? How is it a Benign role when it can literally become a killer?

Definition of Neutral Benign is that its a role that doesnt neccesarily work against Town wincon by condition, and can freely chose to not damage the Town. Executioner is NE because he gets his target, who is a Town, hung, thus damaging Town. Jester gets his guilty voted killed, which can be scum, but most notably he is getting himself hung up, thus wasting a lynch for Town, damaging them. Witch has to work against the Town. Thats why those roles are Neutral Evil.

Benigns are the roles that can chose not to damage Town or damage them if they want to.

Vampire Hunter should have been a Neutral Benign role from the start.

Argument that "benigns dont kill" is bad, it has always been and will be. Dont use real definitions to justify role balance, if you go down that path, you will never be able to determine balance properly because you are limiting your point of view.

Doctor is Town Protective. But, using real logic, he is not protecting them from attack, he is healing their wounds after they were attacked. So, shouldnt it be Town Support instead? He is not protecting them, just fixing them, I think support would fit that better then protections.

If the Doctor role was killing his patients, it could be Town Killing by that definition of "real logic" as well, could it not be?

Doctor is Town Protective, because its ability is keeping people who were attacked by killers alive. Its Protective because it counters Killing roles in their ability.

[cxl1024]

Seriously though, NB's can kill, IDK why everyone keeps saying that "it can't be benign if it kills" (._. )

Because that isn't what the word benign means.

Flaming, you are using real life definition of a word to justify game mechanic. Pls. Its a game, it doesnt have to make perfect sense. Kirize is correct, Benigns can kill, but they need to do that in a fashion that makes their ability have similar impact on the game as other Neutral Benigns.
[/b]

How can a benign kill? The only NBs are amnes and survivors, which cannot kill. And I get that's its a game, but the alignments should be straightforward. What if we put the doctor under the faction NK, and said guys cmon, it's no big deal.

There is a Neutral Benign role "Double" in the Forum Mafia role cards. Check it in the FM section of the forums - you will see, its a Benign role that kills and then takes the role of their victim on their own. I actually played with it in two games, and it seems to be pretty balanced, much more balanced then Amnesiac, for example.

Benign is not a role that "doesnt kill" - besides, if this is how you are prioritizing it, what about Amnesiac, becoming a Serial Killer? How is it a Benign role when it can literally become a killer?

Definition of Neutral Benign is that its a role that doesnt neccesarily work against Town wincon by condition, and can freely chose to not damage the Town. Executioner is NE because he gets his target, who is a Town, hung, thus damaging Town. Jester gets his guilty voted killed, which can be scum, but most notably he is getting himself hung up, thus wasting a lynch for Town, damaging them. Witch has to work against the Town. Thats why those roles are Neutral Evil.

Benigns are the roles that can chose not to damage Town or damage them if they want to.

Vampire Hunter should have been a Neutral Benign role from the start.

Argument that "benigns dont kill" is bad, it has always been and will be. Dont use real definitions to justify role balance, if you go down that path, you will never be able to determine balance properly because you are limiting your point of view.

Doctor is Town Protective. But, using real logic, he is not protecting them from attack, he is healing their wounds after they were attacked. So, shouldnt it be Town Support instead? He is not protecting them, just fixing them, I think support would fit that better then protections.

If the Doctor role was killing his patients, it could be Town Killing by that definition of "real logic" as well, could it not be?

Doctor is Town Protective, because its ability is keeping people who were attacked by killers alive. Its Protective because it counters Killing roles in their ability.

Then, and this is just me offering a suggestion (I do not at all expect it to be accepted, but just throwing it out there), what if they changed the term to something that is more fitting, in which case we wouldn't be arguing anymore because we found a word that actually makes sense.

[simabean]

Vampire can't ruin games. It is an interesting threat to deal with, and you are pretty much screwed without the hunter, so I like that being a requirement. But having only ever three vampires is too much. They are very vulnerable, can be killed by anyone who can kill, but they make up for that in the way they come back quickly and easily. VH as neutral benign is a good idea, but I think vampires are good as is.

[Technetium]

Better idea
Remove VH
Rework Vampire into NK

Problem.

VH was a Kickstarter goal. Are they even allowed to remove it since they promised to include it?

[simabean]

Better idea
Remove VH
Rework Vampire into NK

Problem.

VH was a Kickstarter goal. Are they even allowed to remove it since they promised to include it?

Probably not. And vampire as NK isn't the point. They are a one of a kind conversion role. They are a good as is. Vampire Hunter, was promised, as stated in the above quote, and are the main countermeasure to vampires. Just turn VH into a benign. Other than that, don't change Vampires or Hunters.

[BPsycho2]

I'm sure everyone would agree on that.

[simabean]

The "It can't be Benign because it kills" argument is dumb

I was sure you said something similar about Jester not being able to be benign in the ToS 1.5 thread, leading Orange to change Neutral Benign to Neutral Unaligned...(._. )

VH should probably be replaced by another town role. Go back on the kickstarter promise but give us something that's actually good in compensation.

What could be given instead of Vampire Hunter? I personally believe it's not the Vampire Hunter that needs to be fixed, but the Vampire. Everyone complains about Neutral Chaos being bad because of the Vampire, but I'm sure there is a way to fix that. This idea takes away the Vampire's mass conversion power. That's what makes it unique.

[simabean]

No, Vampires are a broken concept but can be fixed. VH is and always will be an unfair hard counter.

Maybe, but unless another solution is in place, Vampires will grow too quickly.

[simabean]

Hmm... You have a point. I have no other comment but to say I agree.

*edit* But only 3 Vamps ever makes them even more likely to be killed. I think we need another Vampire fix.

[Wzombie]

Oh! I know what we can do!

[BPsycho2]

I personally think this one is better, as the Vampires can't completely destroy the town this way.

[simabean]

I personally think this one is better, as the Vampires can't completely destroy the town this way.

But the Vamps don't stand a chance against VH. They only ever get 3 members, who could be mafia killed, or the VH stakes them.

[BPsycho2]

Well, I gave the Vampires night immunity (Vig will shoot through)

So now, these are the roles that can kill them

Vigilante (Because any role with witchwincon should be able to be killed by this in one shot. Besides a role like Executioner that starts off with another goal)
Vampire Hunter (Because that's kind of how it works.)
Arsonist (Immune Pierce)
Werewolf (Immune Pierce)
Jailor (Immune Pierce)

[simabean]

It would be better to do this.