Paradoxist - Neutral Chaos

[Mindslayer]

I love the concept of this role! Honestly I can't see anything I dislike about it.

[Shastaa]

I like this a lot but.... I do have a couple questions/concerns
So first off, what would happen if a paradoxist visited someone being protected by bg?

Nothing would happen if a Bodyguard's target was rescinded, but the Bodyguard would protect his target, sacrifice himself, and kill the Paradoxist if he tried to erase the protected player.

Next, I do see how trollers could use this to there advantage for example: if a troller was a paradoxist, they could visit a mafia member and say out loud, THIS PERSON IS MAFIA!

A Paradoxist wouldn't usually want to jeopardize people he has identified, since he may want to visit them again.

I also do see someone with role picking a side after they win, maybe have it to were they die once they win?

I do not think that would be beneficial for the gameplay. Punishing people for winning is counter-intuitive.

This role seems more of like a inv role in a way if u know what I mean, I like the role ALOT it's very unique but those are just my concerns!

Thanks
As I mentioned before though, the Paradoxist would want to keep his targets alive in case he needs someone with their alignment. Paradoxists going public with their knowledge are liable to be lynched or killed at night.

This role should die if their clock lands on 6:00.


The way the time is currently configured, that wouldn't be a good idea, since visiting a Mafia N1 would put you on 6 o'clock. Having a kill number doesn't seem too friendly to new players, and the Paradoxist wouldn't really benefit from having one.

[Tzedrik]

I like the role, it's original, simple, and not overly OP.

I think the first visit should be either heal or roleblock, but not both. I understand he is supposed to bring chaos into the town but I feel it may be too much.

Even if the Paradoxist can kill at some point, he isn't really a threat for town or mafia. He could claims his role night 1, just like a survivor, and probably lives up to the end because nobody will see him as a direct enemy, unlike a witch for example. Town should feel the need to lynch him at some point. Maybe something with Town winning conditions?

If he is a roleblocker, he should be immune to roleblock himself.

If he can heal, his healing should not save a target from ignition, just like a regular doctor can't.

He shouldn't be able to kill a jailed target. In fact, it should be about the same spot as Arsonist's ignition on the "death/survival" chart.

He could have detection immunity. The Sheriff's purpose is to find bad roles like Serial Killer, Werewolf and Mafia. The Paradoxist doesn't fall in that category.

Do other players know when a Paradoxist win? I mean the Executioner is kind of obvious once he got his target lynched but it's hard to tell for the Paradoxist.

I like the fact that it's not a unique role. Lot of role ideas are and it kinda nerf the Amnesiac in a way.

Those are my opinion, congrat for your originality

[Shastaa]

Thanks tzedrik.

However, I think erasings should occur almost invariably as to what is done to protect the target. Killing 1 person every 2 nights isn't particularly efficient, so it wouldn't be OP.

Most of these types of roles are immune to roleblocks, but I think he should be roleblock-able so Mafia Consorts can offer some counter to him. Maybe he should have detection immunity, but I think too many people already escape the Sheriff's radar. I don't like the idea of the Paradoxist not interlocking into the town is some way. Maybe the Spy should have some unique interaction with him.

Other players shouldn't need to know when a Paradoxist wins, but it shouldn't make much of a difference.

[Shastaa]

Here's a sketch of what I think the Paradoxist should look like.

http://i.imgur.com/6SQoSrS.png

[oliy]

Coming back here, I'm sad. I liked the old one better, with 4PM start, 3+town, -1Neutral, and -4 MAfia

[Shastaa]

There were a lot of easy-win paths with the previous set of numbers, something had to be changed.

The current integers with...

starting time = 5
Town = +4
Mafia = +1
Neutral = -3

...means the quickest win is 2N + 1M, but that should be pretty hard to come by.

There's probably a better set of numbers and I might edit the times in the OP again. But otherwise I think this set is the best one so far.


Edit: Okay I changed it again, and I outdid myself this time! I found a pretty great number combination; probably the most dynamic out of all of them.

[Shastaa]

This is interesting
I think it would be cool to just remove the player from the player list, not have them in the graveyard and not have their body displayed, to show them being erased from existence, but I think that might be a bit much
I think this role has potential and could be fun to play as

Thanks.
I don't know if the dead should be removed from graveyards, that would get confusing, but it would make sense if erased players had no death graphics and just a floating text over where they would normally be seen during the day.

I don't know if this would be possible, but instead of seeing a flash of red on your screen upon being killed, I think it would be more appropriate to see an image vector similar to this or this, flashing for a split-second upon being killed by a Paradoxist.

[oliy]

Remember, this role relies on fate. Getting those things in 4 turns was extremely lucky
This is just mean ;_;

[Shastaa]

Heh, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch for Neutrals though. Arsonists and Serial Killers have the lowest winrates in the game, and it would only make sense if the Paradoxist also had a hard time winning. But the way I have it now, a Paradoxist could still hit 12 within a reasonable number of nights, no matter who they visit N1, because a victory could be achieved through 4town + 1mafia + 2neutral visits.

[Shastaa]

Bumping.

[StormSurge]

So the Paradoxist can bring back the dead? If so does that person have to be revived close to their time of death? Will their be a time system added?

[theo07]

So the Paradoxist can bring back the dead? If so does that person have to be revived close to their time of death? Will their be a time system added?

No,I think the Inv. result got you confused.

He just visits alive people and he gets/losses points base on who the person he visited is.

[StormSurge]

So the Paradoxist can bring back the dead? If so does that person have to be revived close to their time of death? Will their be a time system added?

No,I think the Inv. result got you confused.

He just visits alive people and he gets/losses points base on who the person he visited is.

Yeah I saw those and I'm like wait what?

[Shastaa]

So the Paradoxist can bring back the dead? If so does that person have to be revived close to their time of death? Will their be a time system added?

No,I think the Inv. result got you confused.

He just visits alive people and he gets/losses points base on who the person he visited is.

Yeah I saw those and I'm like wait what?

Sorry, I didn't want to make this more confusing. His "revival" of people is only good for the night they get attacked so it's just a glorified heal. I'll change the investigation result.

[JazzMusicStops]

It would be cool if, once someone is ripped from time, they disappear from the player list, don't show up in the graveyard and any and all mentions of them in the chat log disappeared

This is purely cool on a level of lore, it would be terrible if it were actually in the game

[Shastaa]

That would be pretty cool, that would make him into a true Neutral Evil though, and the entire town would want the Paradoxist killed immediately.

[Arpitr20]

CAN THIS GET TESTED?

[Jerme]

@Arptitr: It probably can get tested, but with the current amount of players for the TG, it would be no use. This role needs a certain amount of players to successfully work. You have to message Kiyosen for this though.

@Topic: The first time setup was rather good Shastaa. The three ways of possibly winning after four nights were perfect. Not too long, nor too short. I haven't done the math for the current setup, but having the possibility to win in that amount of time (~4 days) are perfect for a neutral with an own goal.

[Shastaa]

CAN THIS GET TESTED?

That would be great! I could also message Kiyosen (isn't that what the sticky says to do?)

On the topic of numbers, I think the first set of integers was waaaay too easy on the Paradoxist. I believe you could win with 4 town visits (so you would only have to identify 2 different town players)... Right now you need 8 town visits to win, which I think is reasonable if you want to go against the town and risk getting lynched.

You can also win with 4 Neutral Role visits, which means you'd only need to identify 2 different Neutrals and only visit them, which I think is fair.

[Arpitr20]

I like the current relationship

[Jerme]

Games could last six nights, or even four. Thats why I prefer the old setup (2 Mafia/2neutral, 3 Mafia/1 Town). Four nights for a possible win are ok. But anyway the victory is not for sure, the Paradoxist still needs a good reading, or assist from the town.

[Shastaa]

I like the current relationship

Thanks, I'm glad someone can recognize the mathematical meticulousness I put into this current setup. These numbers are definitely fair and that's why I like it. I could have gone with a slower hour system with +1 / -1 / +2 (which is more typical for the Clockmaker) but that seems like stale game mechanics.

Games could last six nights, or even four. Thats why I prefer the old setup (2 Mafia/2neutral, 3 Mafia/1 Town). Four nights for a possible win are ok. But anyway the victory is not for sure, the Paradoxist still needs a good reading, or assist from the town.

Yeah, that is a problem. However, the very presence of a Paradoxist might just extend the game by a few days because of his RB + healing. A full game of ToS in All Any is rarely shorter than 7 days. So the Paradoxist should be able to win without having too much information on peoples' roles.

[Jerme]

From my experience in All Any around 50% of the games ended by d7 the latest. So I think that this role should have more ways to win around n5. Otherwise this role is very frustrating, since the games can be over before the Paradoxist has reached their goal. We are currently speaking from the least amount of visits this role has to do in order to win. Visiting a wrong one already prolongs the victory.
Does visiting an SK or WW kill the Paradoxist? Or in that case the Paradoxist does not rb their target?

[Shastaa]

Yeah the SK and WW should attack if the Paradoxist visits them. He needs to be careful of that if he goes for a fast 4 Neutral victory.

I get that it could get frustrating later in the game when you're running out of roles and everyone is leering at you, but the numbers are setup to be compatible no matter who you visit the first 2 nights....

2 Town? You can visit Mafia twice and win by D5
...or you can risk it and try to visit Town 6 more times. 8 Nights would be hard, but would be suitable punishment for trying to go pure Townie.
...or you can visit Town 4 more times, and visit a Neutral once. 7 Nights is doable.

1 Neutral + 1 Mafia? You can visit town 3x and win. That is a victory in 5 nights

2 Mafia? Visit Town 2x and you win in 4 nights.

1 Neutral + 1 Town? Visit the Neutral again, then find a Mafia. 4 Night win.