Amnesiac Overhaul

Test roles that have been suggested in simulated gameplay.

Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby BasicFourLife » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:37 pm

Weird, that no one has suggested this before.

- When you choose a role it will not be revealed to the Town that you remembered a role.
- You can’t remember unique and killing Town roles.
- You own one auto-vest as long as you are an Amnesiac.

1. So it cannot confirm itself and claim Amnesiac and them remember Evil without Town knowing.
2. Because Amne remembering Town Power or Veteran is absouletely broken.
3. So Amne can stay as Amne longer to wait until an Evil role shows up or something.
Last edited by BasicFourLife on Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby Kirize12 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:10 pm

If we’re not making Amnesiac a Double (which would be better) then sure.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

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Re: Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby fwogcarf » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:25 pm

Kirize12 wrote:If we’re not making Amnesiac a Double (which would be better) then sure.

First off Amne is better than Double in my opinion

Second off I like this overhaul except for the fact that it doesn't reveal. Amne is just NB, not NE

(oh my god i cant prove a point)
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Re: Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby Kirize12 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:40 pm

The whole point of not revealing is so it CAN be NB. Currently, amne is town sided as it shows its role, which if town does not matter as they have no use for privacy but if scum does, as it would reveal both the NB and the scum lineup which would be better hidden.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby chitownmvp01 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:16 pm

This would basically be making it the Double. I gave the Amnesiac 1 bulletproof vest when I hosted 11E (although it didn't roll), which I think is fine.

Double > Amnesiac
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Re: Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby ManateeDude » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:17 pm

This is fine, it makes amne and double very similar tho.
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Re: Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby BasicFourLife » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:26 pm

ManateeDude wrote:This is fine, it makes amne and double very similar tho.

Double does not exist in TG.
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Re: Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby BS4125 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:10 pm

BasicFourLife wrote:
ManateeDude wrote:This is fine, it makes amne and double very similar tho.

Double does not exist in TG.

And it should

Spoiler:
lemonader666 wrote:
Seththeking wrote:
BS4125 wrote:Please post relevant posts to the topic at hand and not digress. Also please explain your opinions otherwise your contribution is sub-zero.


Oooooooo Mister Power over here!

And would you look at that, I was on the forums longer then you.

But overall the role for this topic needs work, I mean it's so bad people would rather
get off topic lol.

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Re: Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby BasicFourLife » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:11 pm

BS4125 wrote:
BasicFourLife wrote:
ManateeDude wrote:This is fine, it makes amne and double very similar tho.

Double does not exist in TG.

And it should

But Amne and Doubbby cant exist together in a balanced world.
I am kindly telling you to fuck off. Thank you.

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Re: Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby Kirize12 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:39 pm

BasicFourLife wrote:
BS4125 wrote:
BasicFourLife wrote:
ManateeDude wrote:This is fine, it makes amne and double very similar tho.

Double does not exist in TG.

And it should

But Amne and Doubbby cant exist together in a balanced world.

I mean they can, but I think bees is referring to Amne->Diuble.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby ManateeDude » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:32 am

BasicFourLife wrote:
BS4125 wrote:
BasicFourLife wrote:
ManateeDude wrote:This is fine, it makes amne and double very similar tho.

Double does not exist in TG.

And it should

But Amne and Doubbby cant exist together in a balanced world.

Literally how
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Re: Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby Kirize12 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:41 am

They’re a bit similar, so NB would have 2 slots for an amne-like role.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby Parallax7 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:33 pm

While we’re at it, let’s add murderer, a unique Neutral Killing that has the advantage of being completely role block immune.

Amnesiac and Double literally accomplish the same goddamn thing. One is less toxic, and prone to triggering players.the former being the superior of the two.
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Re: Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby fwogcarf » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:09 pm

Parallax7 wrote:While we’re at it, let’s add murderer, a unique Neutral Killing that has the advantage of being completely role block immune.

Amnesiac and Double literally accomplish the same ####### thing. One is less toxic, and prone to triggering players.the former being the superior of the two.

This. I don't see why none of you get the double is literally amne.

AMNE IS BETTER BECAUSE IT DOESN'T KILL
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Re: Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby BS4125 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:10 am

fwogcarf wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:While we’re at it, let’s add murderer, a unique Neutral Killing that has the advantage of being completely role block immune.

Amnesiac and Double literally accomplish the same ####### thing. One is less toxic, and prone to triggering players.the former being the superior of the two.

This. I don't see why none of you get the double is literally amne.

AMNE IS BETTER BECAUSE IT DOESN'T KILL

Double doesn’t kill, it disguises and suicides

Spoiler:
lemonader666 wrote:
Seththeking wrote:
BS4125 wrote:Please post relevant posts to the topic at hand and not digress. Also please explain your opinions otherwise your contribution is sub-zero.


Oooooooo Mister Power over here!

And would you look at that, I was on the forums longer then you.

But overall the role for this topic needs work, I mean it's so bad people would rather
get off topic lol.

solola is a mod you retard
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Re: Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby Parallax7 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:41 am

Double still removes a player from the game, and this is frowned upon, because it’s removal for literally the sake of removal.
Not for the sake of their enemy’s victory, but their own. It’s bad for player experience.
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Re: Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby lemonader666 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:12 am

Parallax7 wrote:Double still removes a player from the game, and this is frowned upon, because it’s removal for literally the sake of removal.
Not for the sake of their enemy’s victory, but their own. It’s bad for player experience.

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Re: Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby Villagerlover » Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:42 am

I'm not interested in implementing a neutral benign role that can kill someone naturally. It's absurd to me.


Also, the suggestions in this OP have been made countless times at different intervals, and I gladly support them.

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Re: Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby Villagerlover » Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:12 am

Flake wrote:
fwogcarf wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:While we’re at it, let’s add murderer, a unique Neutral Killing that has the advantage of being completely role block immune.

Amnesiac and Double literally accomplish the same ####### thing. One is less toxic, and prone to triggering players.the former being the superior of the two.

This. I don't see why none of you get the double is literally amne.

AMNE IS BETTER BECAUSE IT DOESN'T KILL

Yes, it's not like Double is significantly more balanced than Amnesiac or anything.

Oh wait.


It might be more "in favor" of a ranked setting, but honestly as long as neutral benign isn't even in ranked anymore, who cares?

I personally don't want to have a Double when it's basically just an amnesiac that has the ability to (basically) kick someone out of the game by taking over their spot.
And as I've stated before, I don't believe Neutral Benign roles should have the natural ability to kill.
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Re: Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby lemonader666 » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:06 am

Villagerlover wrote:
Flake wrote:
fwogcarf wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:While we’re at it, let’s add murderer, a unique Neutral Killing that has the advantage of being completely role block immune.

Amnesiac and Double literally accomplish the same ####### thing. One is less toxic, and prone to triggering players.the former being the superior of the two.

This. I don't see why none of you get the double is literally amne.

AMNE IS BETTER BECAUSE IT DOESN'T KILL

Yes, it's not like Double is significantly more balanced than Amnesiac or anything.

Oh wait.


It might be more "in favor" of a ranked setting, but honestly as long as neutral benign isn't even in ranked anymore, who cares?

I personally don't want to have a Double when it's basically just an amnesiac that has the ability to (basically) kick someone out of the game by taking over their spot.
And as I've stated before, I don't believe Neutral Benign roles should have the natural ability to kill.

Killing like that ís not bad if you're gonna play their slot for them
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Re: Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby Villagerlover » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:48 am

lemonader666 wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:
Flake wrote:
fwogcarf wrote:
Parallax7 wrote:While we’re at it, let’s add murderer, a unique Neutral Killing that has the advantage of being completely role block immune.

Amnesiac and Double literally accomplish the same ####### thing. One is less toxic, and prone to triggering players.the former being the superior of the two.

This. I don't see why none of you get the double is literally amne.

AMNE IS BETTER BECAUSE IT DOESN'T KILL

Yes, it's not like Double is significantly more balanced than Amnesiac or anything.

Oh wait.


It might be more "in favor" of a ranked setting, but honestly as long as neutral benign isn't even in ranked anymore, who cares?

I personally don't want to have a Double when it's basically just an amnesiac that has the ability to (basically) kick someone out of the game by taking over their spot.
And as I've stated before, I don't believe Neutral Benign roles should have the natural ability to kill.

Killing like that ís not bad if you're gonna play their slot for them



Yes, it really is actually.
As the player who's killed, cleaned, and "replaced", you basically do nothing and simply watch as the town continues its shenanigans without your participation.
Sure, the same could be said for anyone who gets killed, but the reason I don't like the Double in particular is because you feel you've had this extra sense of "meaninglessness" given to you. The Double not only kills you, but it takes your identity as well. So what's the point of continuing to play the game when there's someone taking over your role for you? It's one thing to get killed night 1, but it's an added sense of humility players will absolutely hate to know that their death was truly meaningless to the town.
Especially if the person gets their favorite role or somethin', and they see their replacement.
Not to mention, the fact that a Double would not help roles that haven't accomplished their goal yet like Jesters, Executioners that haven't lynched their target yet, Survivors, Amnesiacs or Witches.
It would be really dumb to lose because you get murdered by a benign role.

I still think the double is a really bad and unnecessary copycat concept when you already have an Amnesiac that can do the same thing without actually kicking someone out of the game.
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Re: Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby Villagerlover » Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:38 am

Flake wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:I still think the double is a really bad and unnecessary copycat concept when you already have an Amnesiac that can do the same thing without actually kicking someone out of the game.

The issue is that you're completely ignoring the overwhelming positive of Double (significantly better balance), and only focusing on the negatives; the same goes for almost everyone here who has said that Double is bad. Anyone can consider only the negatives or positives of a role and say "this role bad xd" or "this role good xd" respectively. You need to actually weigh up the positives and negatives of Double (or any role) in order to grasp how good it is, and the fact that everyone seems to be completely ignoring a vital positive of Double (as compared to Amnesiac) and jumping to an overall opinion about the role without considering this vital positive is quite irritating. Arguing one case is all well and good, and I agree with some of the points you've made, but don't base your opinion of the role only on the negatives, especially when there are very clear positives.



Man, I understand the whole "It's more balanced" thing, I get it since no numbers increase in majority or anything.
But honestly that's not going matter at all as long as this role doesn't appear in ranked, which I highly doubt it will as long as it remains in Neutral Benign. This role would be more infuriating in any other game mode, which happens to be the only game modes it would be in.
It could be because I have only scanned across the posts, but I don't really see anyone else saying why it's such an amazing role that should replace Amnesiac other than
"It's better than Amnesiac" or "It's more balanced".

In my opinion, it's quite clear to me that this role only has 1 positive (being balanced) in comparison to the vast number of new problems that would come out of this role.
-No one wants to know they were killed and replaced. It takes away the fun of being in the game at all, and will give us more leavers.
-No one wants to be killed by, of all things, a Neutral Benign role, which is quite unfitting for its alignment.
-It won't help with other neutral roles that have unmet goals like I've already stated in my previous post
-It won't even appear in the setting it was clearly created for.
-Above all else, we already have Amnesiac which just needs some tweaking.

To me, it's quite clear that the vast number of negatives outweigh the positives.
I'm better off agreeing to Amnesiac changes than an entirely new unfitting role that deters gameplay
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Re: Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby BasicFourLife » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:06 am

Villagerlover wrote:
Flake wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:I still think the double is a really bad and unnecessary copycat concept when you already have an Amnesiac that can do the same thing without actually kicking someone out of the game.

The issue is that you're completely ignoring the overwhelming positive of Double (significantly better balance), and only focusing on the negatives; the same goes for almost everyone here who has said that Double is bad. Anyone can consider only the negatives or positives of a role and say "this role bad xd" or "this role good xd" respectively. You need to actually weigh up the positives and negatives of Double (or any role) in order to grasp how good it is, and the fact that everyone seems to be completely ignoring a vital positive of Double (as compared to Amnesiac) and jumping to an overall opinion about the role without considering this vital positive is quite irritating. Arguing one case is all well and good, and I agree with some of the points you've made, but don't base your opinion of the role only on the negatives, especially when there are very clear positives.



Man, I understand the whole "It's more balanced" thing, I get it since no numbers increase in majority or anything.
But honestly that's not going matter at all as long as this role doesn't appear in ranked, which I highly doubt it will as long as it remains in Neutral Benign. This role would be more infuriating in any other game mode, which happens to be the only game modes it would be in.
It could be because I have only scanned across the posts, but I don't really see anyone else saying why it's such an amazing role that should replace Amnesiac other than
"It's better than Amnesiac" or "It's more balanced".

In my opinion, it's quite clear to me that this role only has 1 positive (being balanced) in comparison to the vast number of new problems that would come out of this role.
-No one wants to know they were killed and replaced. It takes away the fun of being in the game at all, and will give us more leavers.
-No one wants to be killed by, of all things, a Neutral Benign role, which is quite unfitting for its alignment.
-It won't help with other neutral roles that have unmet goals like I've already stated in my previous post
-It won't even appear in the setting it was clearly created for.
-Above all else, we already have Amnesiac which just needs some tweaking.

To me, it's quite clear that the vast number of negatives outweigh the positives.
I'm better off agreeing to Amnesiac changes than an entirely new unfitting role that deters gameplay

That is your opinion.
I am kindly telling you to fuck off. Thank you.

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Re: Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby Villagerlover » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:54 am

BasicFourLife wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:
Flake wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:I still think the double is a really bad and unnecessary copycat concept when you already have an Amnesiac that can do the same thing without actually kicking someone out of the game.

The issue is that you're completely ignoring the overwhelming positive of Double (significantly better balance), and only focusing on the negatives; the same goes for almost everyone here who has said that Double is bad. Anyone can consider only the negatives or positives of a role and say "this role bad xd" or "this role good xd" respectively. You need to actually weigh up the positives and negatives of Double (or any role) in order to grasp how good it is, and the fact that everyone seems to be completely ignoring a vital positive of Double (as compared to Amnesiac) and jumping to an overall opinion about the role without considering this vital positive is quite irritating. Arguing one case is all well and good, and I agree with some of the points you've made, but don't base your opinion of the role only on the negatives, especially when there are very clear positives.



Man, I understand the whole "It's more balanced" thing, I get it since no numbers increase in majority or anything.
But honestly that's not going matter at all as long as this role doesn't appear in ranked, which I highly doubt it will as long as it remains in Neutral Benign. This role would be more infuriating in any other game mode, which happens to be the only game modes it would be in.
It could be because I have only scanned across the posts, but I don't really see anyone else saying why it's such an amazing role that should replace Amnesiac other than
"It's better than Amnesiac" or "It's more balanced".

In my opinion, it's quite clear to me that this role only has 1 positive (being balanced) in comparison to the vast number of new problems that would come out of this role.
-No one wants to know they were killed and replaced. It takes away the fun of being in the game at all, and will give us more leavers.
-No one wants to be killed by, of all things, a Neutral Benign role, which is quite unfitting for its alignment.
-It won't help with other neutral roles that have unmet goals like I've already stated in my previous post
-It won't even appear in the setting it was clearly created for.
-Above all else, we already have Amnesiac which just needs some tweaking.

To me, it's quite clear that the vast number of negatives outweigh the positives.
I'm better off agreeing to Amnesiac changes than an entirely new unfitting role that deters gameplay

That is your opinion.


Yes.
That's why I keep saying "I think" and "personally" because above all else, this is how I feel about Double. Glad you're observant.
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Re: Amnesiac Overhaul

Postby Kirize12 » Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:43 pm

BasicFourLife wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:
Flake wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:I still think the double is a really bad and unnecessary copycat concept when you already have an Amnesiac that can do the same thing without actually kicking someone out of the game.

The issue is that you're completely ignoring the overwhelming positive of Double (significantly better balance), and only focusing on the negatives; the same goes for almost everyone here who has said that Double is bad. Anyone can consider only the negatives or positives of a role and say "this role bad xd" or "this role good xd" respectively. You need to actually weigh up the positives and negatives of Double (or any role) in order to grasp how good it is, and the fact that everyone seems to be completely ignoring a vital positive of Double (as compared to Amnesiac) and jumping to an overall opinion about the role without considering this vital positive is quite irritating. Arguing one case is all well and good, and I agree with some of the points you've made, but don't base your opinion of the role only on the negatives, especially when there are very clear positives.



Man, I understand the whole "It's more balanced" thing, I get it since no numbers increase in majority or anything.
But honestly that's not going matter at all as long as this role doesn't appear in ranked, which I highly doubt it will as long as it remains in Neutral Benign. This role would be more infuriating in any other game mode, which happens to be the only game modes it would be in.
It could be because I have only scanned across the posts, but I don't really see anyone else saying why it's such an amazing role that should replace Amnesiac other than
"It's better than Amnesiac" or "It's more balanced".

In my opinion, it's quite clear to me that this role only has 1 positive (being balanced) in comparison to the vast number of new problems that would come out of this role.
-No one wants to know they were killed and replaced. It takes away the fun of being in the game at all, and will give us more leavers.
-No one wants to be killed by, of all things, a Neutral Benign role, which is quite unfitting for its alignment.
-It won't help with other neutral roles that have unmet goals like I've already stated in my previous post
-It won't even appear in the setting it was clearly created for.
-Above all else, we already have Amnesiac which just needs some tweaking.

To me, it's quite clear that the vast number of negatives outweigh the positives.
I'm better off agreeing to Amnesiac changes than an entirely new unfitting role that deters gameplay

That is your opinion.

Is that seriously your counterargument?

Because it's flawed. I could easily flip it back on you, saying all your anti-double arguments are your opinion. Prove why their opinion is wrong.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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