orangeandblack5 wrote:It's not that it's too much work, it's that there comes a point where achieving perfect mechanical balance simply isn't worth the tradeoff. Citizen is pretty necessary for claimspace in most circumstsnces, and scrapping it will definitely have farther-reaching effects than improvement of mechanical balance.
Keep in mind that they had to be initially added, or else TG wouldn't have them right now. There were and continue to be many valid arguments for including Citizens in a game, and the tradeoff of more mechanical balance simply isn't worth losing all that cits bring to the table.
nice strawman btw
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
orangeandblack5 wrote:Citizen doesn't need a "fix". And Citizen provides more claimspace than any number of RTs ever could.
I'd much rather play "find the scum" than "confirm the town". Citizens help with that immensely.
fwogcarf wrote:citizen is useless
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
Gooose26 wrote:orangeandblack5 wrote:Citizen doesn't need a "fix". And Citizen provides more claimspace than any number of RTs ever could.
I'd much rather play "find the scum" than "confirm the town". Citizens help with that immensely.
The whole rt cant make claimspace argument you are making is just stupid honestly. It allows you to claim anything, not just claim that you do nothing and hope town believes you. Sure, it is easier to just claim that you do nothing, but there is no skill involved in claiming you do nothing. With random town, we can create claimspace as well as bring in the skill of using deception, something very important in mafia games, in what you claim. Claiming citizen is just trying to hide and hope you don't get caught, which is what leads to confirming the town because there isn't scumreading when you just claim citizen in a game of ToS.
If you want to play find the scum, then you will also have to support my Town (Power) removal as well as Citizen, and also my unknown cause of death change. Silent roleblocking wouldn't hurt but that's not perfect yet. You need to remove confirmability in order to avoid confirm the town games(Town Power/Town Killing/Roleblockers), but you also need to create deception. If there is no deception, the game comes down to whoever leads the town, which leads to massclaiming, which leads to finding town games.
orangeandblack5 wrote:Please stop strawmanning me thanks
Also unknown cause of death is such a no-brainer that it kinda hurts to see TG still tells you how people died
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
Gooose26 wrote:orangeandblack5 wrote:Perfect mechanical balance is entirely unachievable, and I'm not convinced that it's worth scrapping Cits for less Town power variance from role to role.
So what you are saying is, rather than finding balance in everything that we can, you would just prefer that we only find balance in certain aspects of the game because some things are just too much work and fixing everything is "too much work" to do and thus doing work isn't necessary. That's cool and all, but just because you don't care about balance doesn't mean that it isn't needed, and because we need balance we also need this change.
Gooose26 wrote:orangeandblack5 wrote:Citizen doesn't need a "fix". And Citizen provides more claimspace than any number of RTs ever could.
The whole rt cant make claimspace argument you are making is just stupid honestly.
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
Gooose26 wrote:Think of players on a scale of skill, usually this scale can be determined by the ladder but elo isn't efficient enough right now to do that. I'll just use a scale of 1-10, 1 being a bad player and 10 being a great player. Now if we tally up all of the town's skill points together, and it is higher than that of the mafia's, then the town should win. But, there are multipliers to that because there are more town players and because of some town roles being focused on being better/worse. There is no problem with there being less mafia and if it is balanced properly the proportion of each mafia role could give use a formula to determine who should win. If the town is more skilled, then town should win. If the mafia(when proportioned to town) is more skilled, then mafia should win.
Kirize12 wrote:Kirize12 wrote:remove town in general
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
orangeandblack5 wrote:Kirize12 wrote:Kirize12 wrote:remove town in general
Everybody Is Mafia Mafia 2
Gooose26 wrote:NK is mechanically unbalanced and always will be as long as it remains as a solo faction. Saying it isn’t a faction doesn’t hold a lot of weight in my personal opinion because it wins the same as mafia but cannot win with mafia. The problem is that it can die too easily, and there is no way to stop that without making it impossible to kill. This makes NK swingy, and therefore unbalanced.
If you want fix that then you need to give NK the Witch win condition. Of course, the ranked rolelist would need to be scaled as this would be a direct buff to evils, but it would stop kingmaking and stabilize kpn.
orangeandblack5 wrote:Honestly treating NK as a full-fledged faction is a mistake in my eyes. They exist to speed up the game, not truly to win. Sad but true, and also the reason I'd support removing Neutrals from Ranked entirely.
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
orangeandblack5 wrote:Then why not just actually make it a second Mafia Killer?
For example, sure Arso may win with Mafia, but it either doesn't get any kills or probably takes out a few Mafia in the process as collateral
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
OreCreeper wrote:Citizen should not exist. Survivor exists because it is the only truly neutral role in the game. Citizen is just a survivor but aligned with Town. Literally no abilities or anything. A good role should be able to be helpful to its faction in a way other than just being an extra vote. Again, Survivor is an exception because of its neutrality. A good role should be useful, but have their usefulness depend on the skill of the person using it. No utility is not much better than negative utility, in all honesty. Is it not obvious how bad of an idea a Town Survivor would be, balance and utility wise? It's boring and UP, and would quickly become one of the community's most hated roles.
MysticMismagius wrote:Since Citizens have been mentioned a lot: I don't think they'd help with balance all that much. They'd basically be Town's version of the Framer: useless and boring when they appear, if the people who roll them don't just leave. It seems like a really artificial way to "balance" the game by occasionally having up to 3 (edit: or even more than 3, depending on game mode/edits to the Ranked role list) people who are nothing but a vote. If Town is OP, this should be mitigated by nerfing the OP roles and/or buffing the competition in ways that counteract the Town's most OP strategies, not by introducing dead weight to the Town.
Kirize12 wrote:orangeandblack5 wrote:Honestly treating NK as a full-fledged faction is a mistake in my eyes. They exist to speed up the game, not truly to win. Sad but true, and also the reason I'd support removing Neutrals from Ranked entirely.
Agreed
orangeandblack5 wrote:Sounds like you haven't played Citizen ever lmao
It's definitely a great role, is super fun to play, and lets you do a lot that you can't really justify doing with many other roles
That being said
I think you're in the wrong part of the forum lmao
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
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