TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Test roles that have been suggested in simulated gameplay.

Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby alex1234321 » Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:27 am

Descender wrote:alex why do you still have hope
hope was left when shape left the discord

It’s fun

We haven’t done a test in a while but I’ll prob be able to run one or two his week
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby CapWarrior2 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:58 pm

/vote Mortician by Alex1234321 and CapWarrior2
/vote Spy Rework by Soulshad55r
/vote Vigilante Rework by Cookazoo2
/vote Omen by CapWarrior2
Idea Index:
Click Here

Reworked Idea:
Omen - Neutral(Evil)

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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby alex1234321 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:48 pm

Due to a lack of votes, I will be extending the poll for one week. Hopefully by then we can get two tests in and have decent results for all of this month's roles.
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:57 pm

/vote vigilante rework by cook
/vote spy rework by soulshader
/vote robber by Notused
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby alex1234321 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:36 am

We need more votes! Vote for your favorite roles to try to get them into the TG! don't vote unless it's for one of my roles

Edit: Voting has been extended by another week! Please get your votes in.
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby Cookazoo2 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:13 am

/vote Neutral Subalignment Rearrangement
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:08 pm

Since this has dragged on so much and now that we have five people who voted, do you guys think we should end voting now and accept the three roles/concepts that appear to have gotten the most votes? Or should we postpone the end of this cycle indefinitely until we get 1-2 more tests in? Hopefully that happens within a week.

Either way, it appears that the Spy Rework, Vigilante Rework, and Mortician are the most popular concepts with no clear fourth place. Once we end voting, would you guys prefer to just test three roles this month or do a tiebreaker? Four roles is certainly proving hard to manage and I don't think there's a good reason to drag voting to get one more role that we might not be able to sufficiently test.
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby Cookazoo2 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:15 pm

alex1234321 wrote:Since this has dragged on so much and now that we have five people who voted, do you guys think we should end voting now and accept the three roles/concepts that appear to have gotten the most votes? Or should we postpone the end of this cycle indefinitely until we get 1-2 more tests in? Hopefully that happens within a week.

Either way, it appears that the Spy Rework, Vigilante Rework, and Mortician are the most popular concepts with no clear fourth place. Once we end voting, would you guys prefer to just test three roles this month or do a tiebreaker? Four roles is certainly proving hard to manage and I don't think there's a good reason to drag voting to get one more role that we might not be able to sufficiently test.


/vote alex's idea to just go on with three
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby cob709 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:29 pm

this is exactly the problem with democracy: voter apathy
we should replace this idea of "voting" and implement a new system
all decisions should be handedly by one person and everyone else will be advisors
perhaps you're thinking "that will most definitely work because they will feels responsibility and obligation for making a good choice. excellent plan!!! but who is gonna handle such a task???"
fear not, for i shall take this position
through my leadership, we will run fantastic experiments
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:56 pm

cob709 wrote:this is exactly the problem with democracy: voter apathy
we should replace this idea of "voting" and implement a new system
all decisions should be handedly by one person and everyone else will be advisors
perhaps you're thinking "that will most definitely work because they will feels responsibility and obligation for making a good choice. excellent plan!!! but who is gonna handle such a task???"
fear not, for i shall take this position
through my leadership, we will run fantastic experiments


And what if I disagree with supreme leader Cob? I can be an "advisor," but the supreme leader isn't under any obligation to listen to what I say. Of course, I have my own ideas of which changes I support, you have yours, and everyone else has their own. And if I disagree strongly enough with your decisions, who says I can't organize an unofficial test with whatever roles and concepts I prefer? Of course, I wouldn't try to overthrow the TG, and I don't think anyone else here would do that. But I don't think I would take time out of my day to test some role that I absolutely hate. If enough people lose interest, we would end up right back where we are now but possibly even worse because at least now everyone has some sort of say. And with the current playerbase size one vote can make a significant difference.

I opted for a more democratic system because the forums are not as active now as they used to be. Back in 2017-2018, there were a lot of new people coming to the forums who had little to no knowledge of balance and supported unbalanced concepts. Most people here have been active on the forums for at least several months and have enough balance knowledge to create and support decent roles.

However, I wasn't expecting this much voter apathy. I think it has more to do with people losing interest than anything else. Someone mentioned in an earlier post that we should sufficiently test all the current roles before voting on new ones, which is a fair point. Problem is, we can't really test concepts. At this point, I have a good idea of which days and times people are available, so we can schedule tests for those times. At this point, it would probably be a good idea to choose a specific day of the week and time to run all tests. There should be two tests per week so that everyone can be free for at least one test per week. The only problem is that the tests might not get 7 people, but maybe if there was a set date we could all plan our schedules around it to some extent. With my schedule, there will always be a chance that I can't attend a test. Back in February, a bunch of tests failed because I wasn't there, but at this point I think we can get a 7 person test without me. Once we can get 7 person tests once and preferably twice per week, I would expect that people would become more interested in voting and discussing roles that were tested.

Having an active Role Idea mod would also help. The current mods are all semi-retired and do not regularly participate in the TG anymore. The new mod would have to consolidate all the testing records from this year and past years, which would involve combining my posts and the corresponding posts from the old TG. They would also be able to assign roles on the Discord so that anyone who is interested in hosting can do an @here ping or even create new roles. I like the idea of having a regular role that players can sign up for to get pings for tests even when they're not online without having to do an @everyone. This would be especially important in conjunction with my previous suggestion since I'm the only person who can do an @here ping and might not be free for every single test. The current mods seem to be willing to do most of this stuff for us, but I don't want to annoy them and we would get things done faster with our own mod. I'm not saying to have a supreme leader like Cob suggested; the purpose of this would be to keep things organized so that we can do everything more efficiently. Everyone would still have an equal say in the polls.
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby Ezradekezra » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:02 pm

Finally have the motivation to look at a few role ideas

/vote Kleptomaniac
This is my idea so I'm voting for it obligatorily.

/vote Mortician
It's like Bomber and PB combined. I like it.

/vote Robber
The role color is kinda gross but I kinda like the idea

/vote Omen
I think I've been voting for this for a few months now

/vote Neutral Subalignment rearrangement
I'm already using it in every TG game I run but I wanna make it official
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby cob709 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:15 pm

/vote Kleptomaniac by Ezradekezra
/vote Spy Rework by Soulshade55r
/vote Chaos Gamemode: Modifiers by cob709s
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby alex1234321 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:41 pm

Ezradekezra wrote:Finally have the motivation to look at a few role ideas

/vote Kleptomaniac
This is my idea so I'm voting for it obligatorily.

/vote Mortician
It's like Bomber and PB combined. I like it.

/vote Robber
The role color is kinda gross but I kinda like the idea

/vote Omen
I think I've been voting for this for a few months now

/vote Neutral Subalignment rearrangement
I'm already using it in every TG game I run but I wanna make it official


You may only vote for four ideas. Which would would you like to remove?
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby Ezradekezra » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:59 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:Finally have the motivation to look at a few role ideas

/vote Kleptomaniac
This is my idea so I'm voting for it obligatorily.

/vote Mortician
It's like Bomber and PB combined. I like it.

/vote Robber
The role color is kinda gross but I kinda like the idea

/vote Omen
I think I've been voting for this for a few months now

/vote Neutral Subalignment rearrangement
I'm already using it in every TG game I run but I wanna make it official

You may only vote for four ideas. Which would would you like to remove?

/unvote Robber
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby Brilliand » Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:04 pm

alex1234321 wrote:You may only vote for four ideas. Which would would you like to remove?


What really? That rule wasn't in place for previous votes. I would prefer to stay true to an "approval vote", where you vote for everything you think is "good enough", and not voting for something is effectively the same as voting against it.

On a related note, I think the long list of roles in the current poll is causing some of the current voter apathy. We need to drastically trim the list of role submissions at the end of this month; I propose that only roles that failed to make the cut by a single vote be automatically included in the next month's poll. Any role that is multiple votes short should have to be re-submitted in order to be considered again.

I'll go ahead and only consider the roles that would have been in the poll had my idea been implemented last month.

/vote Mortician by alex1234321 and CapWarrior2
/vote Spy Rework by Soulshade55r
/vote Ambusher Rework by alex1234321
/vote Serial Killer Rework by Cookazoo2

While I like Cookazoo2's Vigilante and syjfwbaobfwl's VH and LO, I think those would turn out to be untestable in a small game.

alex1234321 wrote:Either way, it appears that the Spy Rework, Vigilante Rework, and Mortician are the most popular concepts with no clear fourth place. Once we end voting, would you guys prefer to just test three roles this month or do a tiebreaker? Four roles is certainly proving hard to manage and I don't think there's a good reason to drag voting to get one more role that we might not be able to sufficiently test.


I like this idea. We can test 3 roles in the next testing phase, and treat the 2-vote roles as the runnerups (to not be pruned if my pruning rule is accepted).
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby alex1234321 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:48 pm

Brilliand wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:You may only vote for four ideas. Which would would you like to remove?


What really? That rule wasn't in place for previous votes. I would prefer to stay true to an "approval vote", where you vote for everything you think is "good enough", and not voting for something is effectively the same as voting against it.

On a related note, I think the long list of roles in the current poll is causing some of the current voter apathy. We need to drastically trim the list of role submissions at the end of this month; I propose that only roles that failed to make the cut by a single vote be automatically included in the next month's poll. Any role that is multiple votes short should have to be re-submitted in order to be considered again.


Yeah I still prefer the approval system, but I thought people weren't voting because they didn't want to read through 20 roles and make decisions on every single one. I mentioned it in this post discussed it on Discord and a few people seemed to agree with that idea. Sorry if I wasn't transparent enough about that. Since that didn't seem to improve the voter apathy problem, we can go back to the approval system if enough people want to.

I agree with your pruning idea and was actually planning to remove the concepts that got 0 or 1 votes, which coincides perfectly with your idea. In future months I think the cutoff would have to move based on the number of people voting. Maybe the minimum can be half the number of votes needed to make the TG rounded up?

I am also planning on requiring roles to be seconded in order to enter the poll. I suggested that on Discord and a few people liked that idea. What do you think about it?

After this vote ends, which will still be tomorrow, I will try to make a more clear announcement outlining these changes. Of course, if you or anyone else has any better ideas, I will include those.
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby Brilliand » Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:14 am

alex1234321 wrote:Yeah I still prefer the approval system, but I thought people weren't voting because they didn't want to read through 20 roles and make decisions on every single one.


That's true; it's just that limiting the number of votes each person gets doesn't reduce the workload of voting at all. Each voter still needs to either read and consider every role on the list, or come up with a consistent reason to ignore some of them (like I did this month), to decide how to distribute that limited number of votes.

alex1234321 wrote:I am also planning on requiring roles to be seconded in order to enter the poll. I suggested that on Discord and a few people liked that idea. What do you think about it?


I think it's worth a try. I'm not sure it will make much mechanical difference - if you look at the first vote in this thread (where there were no roles carried over from previous months), you can see that every role got at least one vote, and only two of them failed to get a second vote (which doesn't necessarily mean that would have failed to get seconded during submissions). On the other hand, requiring submissions to be seconded creates a social dynamic that may or may not be beneficial. I'd like to see how it plays out.
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby alex1234321 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:08 am

Brilliand wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:Yeah I still prefer the approval system, but I thought people weren't voting because they didn't want to read through 20 roles and make decisions on every single one.


That's true; it's just that limiting the number of votes each person gets doesn't reduce the workload of voting at all. Each voter still needs to either read and consider every role on the list, or come up with a consistent reason to ignore some of them (like I did this month), to decide how to distribute that limited number of votes.


At least for me limiting the number of votes definitely made it faster to vote. There are a bunch of roles that I'm mostly indifferent on and before I had to decide one way or the other on each one and come up with some coherent explanation for each one. This month I just picked my favorite concepts and voted for those. Because of how bell curves work there are a lot of roles that I'm neutral about and very few that I really like or really hate. This month there were only maybe 2 or 3 roles that I was on the fence about as opposed to maybe 10 with the approval system.
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby alex1234321 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:44 am

Voting has (finally) ended! Here are the final results:

Helper by Notused 0
Judge by Cavespider17 0
Sniper by syjfwbaobfwl 0
Kleptomaniac by Ezradekezra 2
Minotaur by CapWarrior2 0
Mortician by alex1234321 and CapWarrior2 5
Omen by CapWarrior2 2
Robber by Notused 1
Investigator Rework by cob709 0
Jailor Rework by alex1234321 0
Lookout Rework by alex1234321 0
Lookout Rework by syjfwbaobfwl 0
Spy Rework by Soulshade55r 6
Silent Transports (thread by syjfwbaobfwl) 0
Trapper Rework by syjfwbaobfwl 0
Vampire Hunter Rework by syjfwbaobfwl 0
Vigilante Rework by Cookazoo2 4
Ambusher Rework by alex1234321 1
Framer Buff by Paradox12 0
Hypnotist Buff by Paradox12 0
Executioner Rework by alex1234321 1
Serial Killer Buff by syjfwbaobfwl 0
Serial Killer Rework by Cookazoo2 1
Poisoner Buff by Brilliand (linked post, not OP) 0
Chaos Gamemode: Modifiers by cob709 1
Neutral Subalignment Rearrangement by Ezradekezra (option B) 2


Even though we have a tie for fourth place, we will NOT be doing a tiebreaker due to the amount of time this voting phase has taken. Instead, only the top three roles will be tested. The following roles will be tested during the remainder of April and possibly May.

Spy Rework by Soulshade55r
Mortician by alex1234321 and CapWarrior2
Vigilante Rework by Cookazoo2

The following roles did not qualify for testing this month but received enough votes to be automatically included in the next poll. They will not be tested unless we are somehow able to test all of this month's roles and the ones from last month that never appeared in a test.

Kleptomaniac by Ezradekezra
Omen by CapWarrior2
Neutral Subalignment Rearrangement by Ezradekezra (option B)

The remaining roles did not receive enough votes to automatically qualify for next month's role poll. These concepts must be resubmitted in order to appear in the next role poll, preferably with edits:

Helper by Notused
Judge by Cavespider17
Sniper by syjfwbaobfwl
Minotaur by CapWarrior2
Robber by Notused
Investigator Rework by cob709
Jailor Rework by alex1234321
Lookout Rework by alex1234321
Lookout Rework by syjfwbaobfwl
Silent Transports (thread by syjfwbaobfwl)
Trapper Rework by syjfwbaobfwl
Vampire Hunter Rework by syjfwbaobfwl
Ambusher Rework by alex1234321
Framer Buff by Paradox12
Hypnotist Buff by Paradox12
Executioner Rework by alex1234321
Serial Killer Buff by syjfwbaobfwl
Serial Killer Rework by Cookazoo2
Poisoner Buff by Brilliand (linked post, not OP)
Chaos Gamemode: Modifiers by cob709

Congratulations to everyone whose concepts made it to the TG! The April submission phase begins now and will tentatively end at 23:59 UTC on April 30. I want to get back to the one cycle per month routine, but we might have to lose a month in order to finish enough tests and get enough votes. Tomorrow's test will be the last one with the current roles if it succeeds. After that, we will begin tests with the new roles and hopefully be able to run two per week. Rolecards will be posted momentarily.

Changes to the Poll System

From now on, all roles must be seconded by at least one other person to be entered into the role poll. To nominate a role, just submit it normally and I will add it to the OP. If you wish to nominate a role anonymously, you may pm me with the information listed in the OP. You can second a role either in the thread or anonymously through a pm, in which case you only need to specify the name of the concept and the author if necessary. Either way please make it clear whether you are nominating or seconding a concept.

We will be moving back to the approval voting system unless there are an unexpectedly large number of submissions (I'd say around 15+ total roles). This means that you will be able to vote for as many roles as you would like. This could be anything from just your very favorite role to any concept that you think is interesting.

As you can see at the beginning of this post, many of the roles in the last poll were pruned due to a lack of votes. From now on, the least popular roles each month will be pruned and must be resubmitted. I'm still not sure what the cutoff will be in future months, but a good starting point is half the number of votes required to make it into the TG, rounded up. This will prevent old roles that nobody really cares about anymore from clogging up the poll.
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby Brilliand » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:30 pm

It sounds like you're implying that roles that get voted in are permanently "in the Testing Grounds". Ideally, the Testing Grounds should ultimately reach a verdict on each role, and either remove it or declare it "good". What's the procedure for that?
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby alex1234321 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:17 pm

Brilliand wrote:It sounds like you're implying that roles that get voted in are permanently "in the Testing Grounds". Ideally, the Testing Grounds should ultimately reach a verdict on each role, and either remove it or declare it "good". What's the procedure for that?


here

The purpose of the TG (besides having fun) is to determine whether or not the roles are balanced, so coming up with a final verdict is one of the most important parts. I made it a vote, which is probably not the best way to do it, but I wasn't sure how else to come up with a final conclusion. In that thread you can vote on whether each of the February test roles should be approved, removed, edited, or tested further.
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby Ezradekezra » Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:19 pm

I buffed Copycat: Link
Color is still #8080FF

Do buffs to roles that have already been voted in get auto-accepted if it's the role's creator that buffs it?
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:32 pm

Ezradekezra wrote:I buffed Copycat: Link
Color is still #8080FF

Do buffs to roles that have already been voted in get auto-accepted if it's the role's creator that buffs it?


I haven't thought of this. I think the best way to handle it would be through the results poll. Assuming most people vote to edit it, we can retest the buffed version in May or June. I don't think it should be auto-accepted since it might be a terrible idea for all we know, but it shouldn't have to go through the whole process again. I have my own ideas on how to buff Copycat, and other people probably have their own, so we can test a buffed version once there's a strong consensus on which edits to make.

Anyway Charmer was anonymously nominated. When I have more time I might nominate a role or two and take a closer look at Charmer.
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Accepting

Postby Ezradekezra » Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:14 pm

Suggestion: Raise the vote cap to around 5 or 6 instead of just 4

I feel like 4 is a bit too restrictive
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Accepting

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:38 pm

I want to nominate the illusionist
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