Test Discussion Masterthread

Test roles that have been suggested in simulated gameplay.

Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby alex1234321 » Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:23 pm

Ezradekezra wrote:What's everyone's opinion on letting Coven roles spawn, like for the test game we ran earlier?


We can definitely test Coven, but I don't think we should test Mafia and Coven together unless we have like 20+ players which won't happen in the foreseeable future. So each test should either be designated as a Mafia game or a Coven game. Since very few Coven games have a Mafia rolelist, I think Coven roles should be restricted to Coven games.

Brilliand wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:What's everyone's opinion on letting Coven roles spawn, like for the test game we ran earlier?


Thing is, Mafia and Town roles that get tested are mainly being tested for the purpose of Ranked, where Coven roles can't spawn. Spawning Stalker and Crusader in the same test game isn't great.

On the other hand, Conqueror was made with All Any in mind, and it's pretty hard to argue that CAA is worse than regular AA.

Seems to me that for this test month, we should switch back and forth between allowing Coven roles and disallowing Coven roles - and that answer may change in other months depending on the which roles are being tested. (In February, we had only Town and Mafia roles under test, so there was no reason to allow Coven at all.)


I think we should be testing for balance but don't see anything wrong with testing for Coven Ranked other than that Coven is bad. Conqueror is actually a balanced role imo and I would argue that it's more suitable for Ranked than any currently existing NK.

In general I think we should primarily do Coven games for non-Mafia roles since those roles would probably be added to the DLC if they were ever added. We should do the occasional Mafia test for non-Mafia roles, especially for months like this one where there is only one Mafia role being tested.
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:47 am

alex1234321 wrote:What do you guys think we should do about each of the roles that were tested in February? Should they be scrapped, approved, or tested further? Here are my thoughts:

Kamikaze: I hate to say this, but I think it should be removed based on our testing results. Even though it might just be OP in small games, it can completely swing the game if it makes it to the endgame. Also it involves at least two and usually 3 people dying, which is a lot for one night, especially for a Town role.

Ambusher Rework: We were not able to get very much information about it during the tests, probably because it is more important earlier in the game. Still I think we should test it 1-2 more times, particularly in larger games if possible. It seems like a good idea to me and I can't think of any gamebreaking consequences of the change.

Framer Rework: Same as Ambusher

Consigliere Rework: I think this change should be approved based on the 2/26 test. It gives a lot of info but it is definitely useful in helping with PoE and prevents the Mafia from targeting a protected Jailor because one TP is dead.

We probably won't have multiple large tests per week in the foreseeable future, so even if we can get 1-2 balanced tests of a role we should try to make as many conclusions as possible based on that information.



Rolestopper did good as it stoped LO and prevented it from confirming a posible TP, although it was a small game where chances of more than 1 visitor on your target are really low

About the rolelist, imo it wasnt really good for 2 reasons

1: Psy spawned, it wasnt really a big deal but RNG info feeder imo isnt a good role

2: The NK was jugg, it wouldnt have been really a problem if they failed to kill on N2, if we are going to test with NKs then it should be exclusively SK

I had rolled SK at the start but then we rerolled, trapper was the appropiate TP since jugg spawned



But I have a question Ezra, whats the interaction between trapper and rolestopper?

Not even a super roleblock or death prevents it from knowing the roles that triggered the trap if it was placed already, so what happens if rolestopper tries to stop trapper when trap was ready?
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby Brilliand » Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:34 am

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Not even a super roleblock or death prevents it from knowing the roles that triggered the trap if it was placed already, so what happens if rolestopper tries to stop trapper when trap was ready?


I'd say it works the same as an Escort roleblocking the Trapper. If the Trapper is rolebocked the night the trap is being placed, then the trap is not placed. The trap stays ready, and the Trapper can make another attempt to place it the following night.
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby Ezradekezra » Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:39 am

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:But I have a question Ezra, whats the interaction between trapper and rolestopper?

Not even a super roleblock or death prevents it from knowing the roles that triggered the trap if it was placed already, so what happens if rolestopper tries to stop trapper when trap was ready?

If a Trapper gets scared off and they fail to place their trap (so the only role that they know visited their target is a Rolestopper), but they can try again the next night.

Also I swear I didn't give Alex Trapper and Syj Psy on purpose because they made comments about those roles in the pre-game. It was actually RNG.
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:55 am

Ezradekezra wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:But I have a question Ezra, whats the interaction between trapper and rolestopper?

Not even a super roleblock or death prevents it from knowing the roles that triggered the trap if it was placed already, so what happens if rolestopper tries to stop trapper when trap was ready?

If a Trapper gets scared off and they fail to place their trap (so the only role that they know visited their target is a Rolestopper), but they can try again the next night.

Also I swear I didn't give Alex Trapper and Syj Psy on purpose because they made comments about those roles in the pre-game. It was actually RNG.


I mean if trap was placed already

Like if alex (trapper) had trapped me N3, no one did visit me

And then Brilliand (rolestopper) had went on me N4, when trap was already placed
Last edited by syjfwbaobfwl on Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby Ezradekezra » Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:58 am

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:But I have a question Ezra, whats the interaction between trapper and rolestopper?

Not even a super roleblock or death prevents it from knowing the roles that triggered the trap if it was placed already, so what happens if rolestopper tries to stop trapper when trap was ready?

If a Trapper gets scared off and they fail to place their trap (so the only role that they know visited their target is a Rolestopper), but they can try again the next night.

Also I swear I didn't give Alex Trapper and Syj Psy on purpose because they made comments about those roles in the pre-game. It was actually RNG.

I mean if trap was placed already

Like if alex had trapped me N3, no one did visit me

And then Brilliand had went on me N4, when trap was already placed

When someone gets scared off, the visit still happens but has pretty much no effect (they can be Tracked and seen by a Lookout but will be scared off before they can perform their action), so the Trapper will see whichever role the Rolestopper scared off in addition to the Rolestopper.
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:59 am

Ezradekezra wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:But I have a question Ezra, whats the interaction between trapper and rolestopper?

Not even a super roleblock or death prevents it from knowing the roles that triggered the trap if it was placed already, so what happens if rolestopper tries to stop trapper when trap was ready?

If a Trapper gets scared off and they fail to place their trap (so the only role that they know visited their target is a Rolestopper), but they can try again the next night.

Also I swear I didn't give Alex Trapper and Syj Psy on purpose because they made comments about those roles in the pre-game. It was actually RNG.

I mean if trap was placed already

Like if alex had trapped me N3, no one did visit me

And then Brilliand had went on me N4, when trap was already placed

When someone gets scared off, the visit still happens but has pretty much no effect (they can be Tracked and seen by a Lookout but will be scared off before they can perform their action), so the Trapper will see whichever role the Rolestopper scared off in addition to the Rolestopper.


That means that trapper cannot get scared of after trap was placed?
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby Ezradekezra » Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:04 am

Spoiler:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:But I have a question Ezra, whats the interaction between trapper and rolestopper?

Not even a super roleblock or death prevents it from knowing the roles that triggered the trap if it was placed already, so what happens if rolestopper tries to stop trapper when trap was ready?

If a Trapper gets scared off and they fail to place their trap (so the only role that they know visited their target is a Rolestopper), but they can try again the next night.

Also I swear I didn't give Alex Trapper and Syj Psy on purpose because they made comments about those roles in the pre-game. It was actually RNG.

I mean if trap was placed already

Like if alex had trapped me N3, no one did visit me

And then Brilliand had went on me N4, when trap was already placed

When someone gets scared off, the visit still happens but has pretty much no effect (they can be Tracked and seen by a Lookout but will be scared off before they can perform their action), so the Trapper will see whichever role the Rolestopper scared off in addition to the Rolestopper.

That means that trapper cannot get scared of after trap was placed?

If the Trapper doesn't do anything and leaves their trap where it is, then they can't get scared off because they're not visiting anyone.

If the Trapper dismantles their trap, then they will get scared off in the event of a Rolestopper being on their target. The trap will still break, though, since the Rolestopper triggered it.

Trapper is a very confusing role
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby Cookazoo2 » Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:42 am

Alright, here's a hot take with Kamikaze.

What if Jailor was nerfed to be Jailkeeper from FM, perhaps still unique, but then Kamikaze was the guaranteed spawn for Town?

That way, there's still a guaranteed Town kill power and the possibility to sweep out the scumteam, but without quite the raw power of a Roleblocker, Ascetic, Doctor, Neighborizer, and Strongman Vigilante all rolled into one role?
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby alex1234321 » Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:40 am

Cookazoo2 wrote:Alright, here's a hot take with Kamikaze.

What if Jailor was nerfed to be Jailkeeper from FM, perhaps still unique, but then Kamikaze was the guaranteed spawn for Town?

That way, there's still a guaranteed Town kill power and the possibility to sweep out the scumteam, but without quite the raw power of a Roleblocker, Ascetic, Doctor, Neighborizer, and Strongman Vigilante all rolled into one role?


If you need to guarantee that a role spawns once and only once in every game, doesn't that say something about the swing that the role causes?

Anyway, this might not be a bad idea since Kamikaze is definitely not as strong as Jailor and can be fakeclaimed more easily than Jailor, even if it is unique. But do we need a new role that guarantees kill power? The current list (and the vast majority of balanced rolelists) has a guaranteed TK, so I think the Town would still have substantial killing ability even if Jailor was nerfed into Jailkeeper or something else.
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby Ezradekezra » Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:47 pm

3/27/2021 Spreadsheet

3/27/2021 Transcript

Too bad the game ended before the Copycat got to do anything
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby alex1234321 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:52 pm

What did everyone think of today's test? Aside from Jugg being a bad NK role for small games, Copycat seemed sort of useless as well. Brilliand, were you able to get the Escort ability?

I think the issue with Copycat is that its power substantially depends on the specific role that is lynched. Dead Escort? Now the Mafia basically has another Consort. Dead Bodyguard? Not nearly as good and possibly negative utility.
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby Ezradekezra » Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:54 pm

alex1234321 wrote:What did everyone think of today's test? Aside from Jugg being a bad NK role for small games, Copycat seemed sort of useless as well. Brilliand, were you able to get the Escort ability?

I think the issue with Copycat is that its power substantially depends on the specific role that is lynched. Dead Escort? Now the Mafia basically has another Consort. Dead Bodyguard? Not nearly as good and possibly negative utility.

Brilliand didn't mark Dolphina

They marked Cabohhh
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby dolphina » Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:12 pm

perhaps we could change it to a [copy ability during night/gain one charge of the ability] role with a drawback. maybe they can't copy certain charges, like vesting or bodyguard's ability
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby cob709 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:24 pm

alex1234321 wrote:What did everyone think of today's test? Aside from Jugg being a bad NK role for small games, Copycat seemed sort of useless as well. Brilliand, were you able to get the Escort ability?

I think the issue with Copycat is that its power substantially depends on the specific role that is lynched. Dead Escort? Now the Mafia basically has another Consort. Dead Bodyguard? Not nearly as good and possibly negative utility.

Copycat is more suited for Ranked role lists. It has two ways that it can be used: steal the Town's abilities, or preserve the evil's abilities. Its power difference is similar to the retributionist, in that it is dependent on other roles. Unlike the retributionist, however, is that the role is rewarded based on how well they play.
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby alex1234321 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:55 pm

cob709 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:What did everyone think of today's test? Aside from Jugg being a bad NK role for small games, Copycat seemed sort of useless as well. Brilliand, were you able to get the Escort ability?

I think the issue with Copycat is that its power substantially depends on the specific role that is lynched. Dead Escort? Now the Mafia basically has another Consort. Dead Bodyguard? Not nearly as good and possibly negative utility.

Copycat is more suited for Ranked role lists. It has two ways that it can be used: steal the Town's abilities, or preserve the evil's abilities. Its power difference is similar to the retributionist, in that it is dependent on other roles. Unlike the retributionist, however, is that the role is rewarded based on how well they play.


Town roles are balanced to be of relatively equal power when used by Town members. So as long as non-unique players die, Retributonist’s power isn’t super swingy. And removing Jailor/Mayor from ranked would mostly fix the unique role swing. In the hands of scum, some Town roles are extremely useful while others are useless or negative utility. Also some of Retributionist’s swing is mitigated because Town is harmed when powerful roles die and Retributionist somewhat counteracts that.
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby Brilliand » Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:59 pm

I certainly didn't play to Copycat's strengths. Copycat is meant to play like Executioner, but what I actually did was claim something believable and push whoever CC'd me.

A small game doesn't give the Copycat much time to gain and use an ability, though. Perhaps I could have gotten an ability by claiming Sheriff right out of the gate and pushing Cabohhh, but then I would have wound up as... an evil Sheriff (and I didn't want to risk randomly pushing the NK, in any case).

cob709 wrote:Copycat is more suited for Ranked role lists. It has two ways that it can be used: steal the Town's abilities, or preserve the evil's abilities.


Preserve what, though? It can't copy killing abilities, so even if it functions as a backup for a lynched evil, its options are extremely limited.

If I could have marked the Juggernaut to become the Juggernaut and keep the game going, that would've been interesting, but the current Copycat doesn't make that possible. (Not that I knew who the Juggernaut was at the time)
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby cob709 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:06 pm

Brilliand wrote:
cob709 wrote:Copycat is more suited for Ranked role lists. It has two ways that it can be used: steal the Town's abilities, or preserve the evil's abilities.


Preserve what, though? It can't copy killing abilities, so even if it functions as a backup for a lynched evil, its options are extremely limited.

The copycat can copy Witch and any Random Mafia. It's options are only limited from Killing roles, but it can use any other ability.
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby dolphina » Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:17 pm

so everyone’s just gonna ignore my suggestion? alrighty then
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby cob709 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:28 pm

dolphina wrote:perhaps we could change it to a [copy ability during night/gain one charge of the ability] role with a drawback. maybe they can't copy certain charges, like vesting or bodyguard's ability

It might be bothersome to create a drawback for each role. Maybe they should gain a charge of a role in their target's alignment instead?
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby dolphina » Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:31 pm

cob709 wrote:
dolphina wrote:perhaps we could change it to a [copy ability during night/gain one charge of the ability] role with a drawback. maybe they can't copy certain charges, like vesting or bodyguard's ability

It might be bothersome to create a drawback for each role. Maybe they should gain a charge of a role in their target's alignment instead?

ah no i meant certain abilities that the copycat cannot copy
like i think they shouldn’t be granted any self-sacrificing charges or self-prot charges like vesting/bodyguard. they can have a doctor charge, but that’s the only self-prot charge they can have, and they can only use it on themselves once. if they try to copy them they just get a randomized pool of “bad” charges or just don’t get that charge
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby Brilliand » Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:53 am

dolphina wrote:so everyone’s just gonna ignore my suggestion? alrighty then


Your suggestion wasn't really a comment on what we learned from the test. I feel like it's the sort of thing that should go either in the original Copycat thread, or in a thread of its own (as a complete new role proposal), and work its way into Testing Grounds through the voting process.
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby alex1234321 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:05 am

Brilliand wrote:
dolphina wrote:so everyone’s just gonna ignore my suggestion? alrighty then


Your suggestion wasn't really a comment on what we learned from the test. I feel like it's the sort of thing that should go either in the original Copycat thread, or in a thread of its own (as a complete new role proposal), and work its way into Testing Grounds through the voting process.


I don't think there's anything wrong with Dolphina's comment. In a previous comment, I said that Copycat is too swingy, which wasn't directly related to the results of the test but had to do with the fact that an Escort was lynched D2, which made me think about how much more powerful a copied Escort would be than a copied Bodyguard or something. Part of the problem with Copycat is that mislynches should be rewarded somewhat equally, and it's hard to predict the exact role of someone before they claim. Massclaims can help, but usually once a massclaim happens the outcome of the game will be all but decided by the time the Copycat is able to mark the person with the most useful ability. Dolphina's suggestion somewhat counteracts this by removing the part of the role that is related to mislynches.

As for the suggestion itself, I think it slightly improves the role but does not completely fix all its problems. It's less swingy since powerful and weaker roles are going to balance each other out, but the problem of some Town abilities being much stronger to scum than others still stands. It takes away the mislynching mechanic, which is one of the more important aspects of the role, but that doesn't automatically make the change bad or anything.
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby Ezradekezra » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:11 pm

Spreadsheet from the game I hosted

Transcript from the game I hosted

Copycat definitely needs a buff, which I already submitted in the submission/voting thread
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:15 pm

Transcript for Cavespider's games

For the Copycat role, I prefer to let it choose any non-unique role within the player's subalignment. I think that would more effectively counter the main issue of the role, which is that some copied abilities are much stronger than others. It isn't perfect since TPs will generally be weaker than other Town alignments for scum, but I think it's the best way to go.
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