Episode XI | Rerolled (TrueGent wins!)

[TheForgot3n1]

Thing is, scum can make townreads, call them 100% legit when they aren't and make it seem like the town is functional. My gut says the townreads (of others) are weak and ingenuine, which hasn't happened any other game, hence why things feel off/scumdriven.

[Lexiam]

Wait what if most of the inactives is scum, and town is active? we cant be too sure.

We cant let anyone be leading the town unless they are 100% proven town. look at 9G when a SK was leading town. And won.

Those are my thoughts on someone leading town thats not confirmed. will post later in the day if i have time

[Mroz4k]

You keep repeating the same thing without examples, adding nothing.

And you don't have to be bad because you aren't tryharding. Nevertheless if you didn't know this is an episode, it is supposed to be tryhard.

I gave you examples allright.

Also literally title of the game says it's just a game.

Just cause this is Episode ppl don't need to be tryhards. Not anymore then in any FM game.

I'm not going to quote all the shit you do, it's difficult to do on phone. I point out what I want.

[Zero]

Why do we not just lynch the witch/scum kiz. It does not look like anything else is getting done here.

[Mroz4k]

Busy today, sorry.

True told me TK can roll in RT by the way.

We will have True state that himself.

And I know, generally faking Vig is a horrible idea in this kind of situation. Still I wanted to point out the absence of Mafia kill.

[Mroz4k]

Why do we not just lynch the witch/scum kiz. It does not look like anything else is getting done here.

Then HOW ABOUT YOU GET SOMETHING DONE YOURSELF you lazy scum??? Hmm?

[Mroz4k]

Is anyone in this town capable of sharing their opinions on the game?!!

Or are you all just going to sit back and let others play, then blame them if Town loses? We need to discuss!

[Mroz4k]

Gent, can you please fucking fix up the game? Update the dead list, replacements, post their bloody ISOs, prod the inactives?

It's bloody riddiculous that in 18hours, 6 posts were made.

[LordofFail]

Is anyone in this town capable of sharing their opinions on the game?!!

Or are you all just going to sit back and let others play, then blame them if Town loses? We need to discuss!

if given my opinions.

I think Alouvre and ryan are both mafia, forgot3n1 is neutral and plenty of people are inactive

[Mroz4k]

Wait what if most of the inactives is scum, and town is active? we cant be too sure.

We cant let anyone be leading the town unless they are 100% proven town. look at 9G when a SK was leading town. And won.

Those are my thoughts on someone leading town thats not confirmed. will post later in the day if i have time

So you hardclaim that you are a scum with this post you bloody inactive?

Oh, and you know what I love even better? The sumbtle message you brought up, bringing up 9G.
"Don't listen to anyone who is not confirmed Town, they could be scum."
Good fucking advice. Let's just all sit back and let scum do whatever they want.

Only I think the subtle message was "don't listen to Mroz, he has won 9G as a SK leading the Town before".

You implying 9G means you've read it. So you know it was me. Why did you not say so straight up?

Or better. Here is a bloody idea. You are Town, right? You know what you are... WHY ARE YOU NOT LEADING THE TOWN THEN?

I don't need advice from pussies. I need Town to contribute. If Town contributed and everyone was "leading" the Town, there would be no danger.

[Mroz4k]

Is anyone in this town capable of sharing their opinions on the game?!!

Or are you all just going to sit back and let others play, then blame them if Town loses? We need to discuss!

if given my opinions.

I think Alouvre and ryan are both mafia, forgot3n1 is neutral and plenty of people are inactive

Good! Now we are getting somewhere.

Why Mafia, why neutral?

I know the answer to why so many inactives. Cause they are pussies scared to contribute cause they could die in an official game. Lazy potatoes.

[Mroz4k]

Personally I don't see alouvre + Ryan as an informed team. If there is Mafia amongst them, the other is not.

Mela lynch was couple of Towns going tunnelminded. Might be there is one Maf among them. Don't think more, too risky.

[Mroz4k]

Fuck y'all, imma go watch LOTR.

[LordofFail]

Is anyone in this town capable of sharing their opinions on the game?!!

Or are you all just going to sit back and let others play, then blame them if Town loses? We need to discuss!

if given my opinions.

I think Alouvre and ryan are both mafia, forgot3n1 is neutral and plenty of people are inactive

Good! Now we are getting somewhere.

Why Mafia, why neutral?

I know the answer to why so many inactives. Cause they are pussies scared to contribute cause they could die in an official game. Lazy potatoes.

I explained in a reads list wall earlier

alouvre pushed hard on mel and then used fallacies to try and invalidate my arguments rather then using counter arguments and proof
ryan and james got along too well for my liking; i was expecting a full on shitstorm between the two of them, that they both agreed on so many things makes me think they are both mafia together. this game only has room for one of their egos tbh

forgot3n1 is neutral because he is just giving loads of nullreads and not really giving opinions either way. Hes basically playing it safe with nullreads so he wont take a fall if he has a scumread flip town or vice versa. He strikes me as a solo aligned player in that regard because of that.

[alouvre]

okay, the weekend's here and I feel not-so-rejuvenated but here's your answer, LoF.

Spoiler:

Pushed hard on the mel lynch. And the first reason for voting mel was just an OMGUS and things spiraled from there. Alouvre basically tunnelled mel all day yesterday.

let me address things in points.

1.1. What you lack here is sympathy towards different playstyles. What is scummy to me may not scummy to you, and vice versa. When I get to the part where you explain your thoughts on the case, I will explain my side. You asked for a refutation with logical reasoning. I request you read it in its entirety and actually think about what i am saying and do not scoff at my words simply because you are scumreading me, because that itself is tunneling.

2.1. I do not see omgus as necessarily scummy and I will tell you why. I am town. Perhaps nobody will believe it if I say so, but it is a fact. Answer me this: what is so wrong about using the alignment on someone you know to be town as leverage? To me, it's the same thing as scumreading melanora for pushing on someone I am townreading, but even better, because I am 100% sure of my alignment. With others, no matter how strong of a read you have, there is always the possibility of being wrong. Barring confirmed town of course.

2.2. There are some usages of omgus I agree are scummy, but that's when someone omguses another for little reasoning. The reason why I voted her in my first post was partly because I wanted to pressure her. Of course you can't know that and I can't prove it, so moving on: I'll explain my first thoughts on her.

I had been eyeing the way she presented her scumreads. A big part of it was harddefending inactives without ever acknowledging the actual case against them. here is the post I am referring to. Take a look at the portion where she talks about ryan. I was more sympathetic with her because I too found Ryan's readlist weird at first. However, she then mentioned him going after inactives. This is extremely one-sided thinking. Many people were inactive, and it does not mean people who are inactive cannot be scum. Again, I acknowledge scum likes to pick on easy targets, but town can just as easily pursue them in order to pressure them, or because they legitimately believe something this inactive did is scummy. This is easily distinguishable if you look at who they actually want lynched vs who they're pressuring vs their reasoning. Ryan did a very good job explaining why melanora's read on him was null at the least. More to this later.

Anyway, back to me. Look at what she said about Hark. The first thing that pinged me was "if you want votes for misa, then say so, hark." He did. He said that so many times. This, combined with demanding ryan for reasoning on his bomber read on N, made me believe she was not reading the thread. Yet she phrased her entire post like she knew what she was doing. This came off to me as scum who yanks on reasoning that seems very sound, but in context, is absolutely terrible. I know now she just didn't think about it, but at the time the fact she scumread both ryan and hark for targeting inactives yet did not scumread any other active for other reasons was the main reasoning why I found it so scummy. If you don't understand this, I'll attempt to clarify upon request.

2.3. Finally, like Ryan, I attempted to refute her read on Hark. why? Because I understood his behaviour and thus was able to do so. Mel completely ignored my defence and kept repeating she didn't want to lynch me even though she thought I was scum. There are two things very scummy about this.

A. If you keep scumreading someone and don't acknowledge their defence, you aren't giving them a chance. What made it worse is she kept saying that I was scum for the same reasons I already responded against, yet did not specify what was wrong with my defence. This is scummy because I felt like she was just trying to handwave anything I said in order to look like she was legitimately scumhunting when in fact she wasn't. Because if she gave up her case on ryan and me there were few, if not nobody, she could've scumread without being hypocritical (targeting inactives) or doing a 180 by sympathizing with those she formerly scumread.

B. If you scumread someone, the point is to get them lynched. As I said, I understand if i said that I couldn't respond against Mel's accusations. But I could and did. I gave her the perfect opportunity to keep pushing me. But she didnt and kept saying it was unfair to me because "could not explain the absurd arguements of the original, and was town" despite me repeating multiple times before this that I did not think hark's arguments were absurd, which is why I defended him in one of my first posts of the game. So this just came off as not wanting to push her reads at all. Plus she didn't ever give an alternative lynch target.

Pretty sure most things here have been explicitly stated or heavily implied before melanora was lynched. I'm 100% sure the major points had been at the very least. If you want proof I will quote the posts for you.

The first sentence is basically "I dont care how you (mel) respond to this im voting you and think you're scum anyways" . Which is basically just tunnelling. Oh, and there is a lot of meta arguments in alouvre's ISO.

1.1. I already responded to this here. Summary: it was getting to the point where mel seemed like she was going to get lynched regardless. I thought she was scum, I doubted she would get on in time or even bother responding to me (why would she, if she ignored me for pages upon pages?) and - yeah I guess "I don't care how you respond to this I'm voting you and think you're scum anyways" is accurate. I don't see the problem here. In fact, melanora did the same thing to me, but worse - I gave a defence. She did not acknowledge it, yet said i was scum and still refused to lynch me. At least I acknowledged every single thing she said, pushed her, and actually followed through with my large scumread on her. I was wrong. I am sorry. But everything I did was town-motivated, and that is what I am trying to prove to you.

1.2. Also, please do not ignore everything else I said in that post in favour of just the first line.

2. Let me explain how I use meta. I understand people's playstyles are very fluid and meta can sometimes be unreliable. This is why I had you as scum, LoF. Before, you were not pushing anything (as you are now). You just joked around, passively commented on things and never actually got aggressive. If it were someone else I would have considered their meta as well. Now you have become more aggressive and are following through your reads. This ties more into what I expected of you.

Before you say this, yes, I am aware that I might've gotten your meta wrong. I was aware of it back then as well. That is why I ignored you outside of readlists. I didn't push you because my read on you was largely meta, and I had other targets that had plenty of incriminating in-thread evidence against them (mel and Samuel mostly).

Meta is very useful. You said yourself that it can be used to support a read. I agree, and that is how I'm trying to use it. I have not and will not push a case purely on meta. If I push a case, it means they did something in this thread that is scummy, and it is supported by their meta. Example: N. I had suspicions on him before. But I was not familiar with him. Never even met him. Which is why I meta'd him to see if what I had on him was AI. Does this make sense?

And if you're talking about kirize, it's because ladd was talking about kirize doing something similar in a previous game. I went to look to see if it was a coincidence or not.

Oh, and alouvre for some reason didn't want to summarize the case against mel. Which indicates to me that there is no real concrete case, its just a bunch of bullshit fluff and a scum-driven lynch with sheepy town. Town try to convince others why someone is scummy, scum try to get others to sheep and vote someone.

I am very tired of people saying that ryan and I were trying to get people to sheep with us. We gave supporting evidence ad nauseam. You saying I refused to summarize the case makes me suspect you skimmed the thread or at the very least my posts, because I did, here, as well as my side of the case, here.

Finally, we get to the root of this problem: the case against mel.

Argument one was that mel did fuck all D1. Are you fucking serious? If lynches were based on D1 contributions I would be policy lynched D2 on every single game. D1 activity is 100% NAI.

First of all, this was a meta-based argument. To some people, d1 activity is NAI. To others, it is not. For example, if something was going on D1 that was actually serious and wasn't memes and shit, I would get involved and give opinions. If I completely ignored it, it would be uncharacteristic. Ryan applied this reasoning to Mel. He thought it was out of character for her town play. I don't see anything wrong about this. Even mel didn't think think there was something wrong with it. She admitted d1 "got away from her" which implies she would've started doing something if it was longer.

Argument two is that mel got two people confused and that mel was against hypoclaiming. Again, I fail to see how this is scummy in any way, especially because I was doing the same exact thing.

There is a lot of misunderstanding in this.

1. Ryan's purpose was to attack Mel's read on him because he knew her read on him was based on faulty reasoning. This is a defence as well as an attack - it's scummy to keep scumreading others for shaky reasoning, because it allows scum to push mislynches easily. You follow? By proving Mel's read on him wrong, he is proving that Mel has been holding onto a read that is null at best.

2. No, Ryan never accused Mel because she was against hypoclaiming. Mel responded like he was but he never did. Please look at second link Ryan provided and you will see he is actually accusing her of not reading the thread, which I hope I do not have to explain why it was scummy of her.

Argument three is a giant meta based argument that has no solid foundation. Furthermore, mel explains herself in a logical manner.

I can see both sides of this, but let me explain what Ryan meant first.

Mel said: "You should fear me if I'm super pro-town tbh. Because then I'm probably not town."

This is essentially excusing her scummy play while simultaneously affirming her town status via self-meta, instead of proving it through an actual defence. Do you see why he had a problem with this?

I agree that Mel's response was logical and explains why she doesn't want to get killed early, but it does not address Ryan's primary concern.

Argument four makes no sense. How is thinking someone to be scummy scum indicative at all when the person mel thought was scummy is still alive and hasnt flipped green, red or neutral? Furthermore, mel FoSed Hark/alouvre before Hark/alouvre OMGUS'd mel.

You did not summarize this point well. Ryan was pointing out Mel's hypocrisy and evasiveness, not accusing her of being scummy simply because she was scumreading someone else. Here is Mel's post in question.

1. Mel accused Hark of ignoring her post, but also ignored Ryan's post here. This is hypocritical.

2. Ryan directly asked Mel to give her thoughts on Yau, whom he says has displayed similar tendencies as Hark. Instead of answering his question, she states that they are different people, Hark was louder, and thus would be scrutinized more. Which is true, but it is not what Ryan was asking. He wanted thoughts specifically on yau. Mel turned it back to hark without addressing what yau did. This is evasive.

3. One of Mel's points against hark was that he assumed the mafia killer was witched. In her post, the very last portion basically summed up her read on him in absolutes. In other words, she scumreads Hark for saying something that can't be proven like it was a fact, but at the same time, does the same thing.

Argument five also makes no sense. Mel was claiming that Cham was the intended N1 mafia kill target, which was basically implying that James was full of shit for saying the mafia kill was witched. Ignoring the fact that we know now that James was Mafia, the entire argument is stupid. Its basically saying that mel is scum for having an opinion that she thinks that the mafia didn't hit the 1/19 chance of controlling the mafia kill target. 18/19 are pretty good odds if you ask me.

Nobody ever mentioned James here. I already explained earlier why it was scummy that Mel ignored my defence. If you need elaboration on this, please ask. Also, please do not use math as supporting evidence for something that is not randomized. The witch is not a RNG. The witch is a player, and is biased.

Argument six isn't even an argument. It has no relation to scumreads in any sort.

It does.

1. Ryan quotes posts that Mel has yet to respond to. Evasive, therefore scummy.

2. The slip he is referring is adequately articulated here if you care enough to look. Now that she flipped town, we know there was just a misunderstanding between "feeling like a dumbass" and "feeling bad." The last part, excusing me because I just replaced in, I already explained about why letting me go because I'm a replacement is scummy.

Argument seven was already responded to earlier, and again, has no direct link to a scumread.

Still does. Ryan points out the flaws of Melanora's posts. I also already explained this earlier.
I see you continue to accuse me of using logical fallacies, but you have yet to clarify what these fallacies are. Please elaborate.

Also lol I did this entire post on mobile. Fear me fools

[alouvre]

sorry I slept in and spent a good portion of my day doing that shitty thing and I'm shitted the fuck out. What else was going on? I forgot

Also samuel is still ignoring my case I see. Let me reread the thread in depth and I'll get back tonight but i have to go now, bye

[npromin1]

Is anyone in this town capable of sharing their opinions on the game?!!

Or are you all just going to sit back and let others play, then blame them if Town loses? We need to discuss!

if given my opinions.

I think Alouvre and ryan are both mafia, forgot3n1 is neutral and plenty of people are inactive

Good! Now we are getting somewhere.

Why Mafia, why neutral?

I know the answer to why so many inactives. Cause they are pussies scared to contribute cause they could die in an official game. Lazy potatoes.

I explained in a reads list wall earlier

alouvre pushed hard on mel and then used fallacies to try and invalidate my arguments rather then using counter arguments and proof
ryan and james got along too well for my liking; i was expecting a full on shitstorm between the two of them, that they both agreed on so many things makes me think they are both mafia together. this game only has room for one of their egos tbh

forgot3n1 is neutral because he is just giving loads of nullreads and not really giving opinions either way. Hes basically playing it safe with nullreads so he wont take a fall if he has a scumread flip town or vice versa. He strikes me as a solo aligned player in that regard because of that.

I don't think there's anything wrong with posting a ton of nullreads. It doesn't indicate someone being neutral IMO. I can see where you're coming from, but if I were neutral, I wouldn't just post null reads.

[alouvre]

N, can you explain why you linked the maf chat? what did you want me to look for or what were you trying to explain?

[npromin1]

N, can you explain why you linked the maf chat? what did you want me to look for or what were you trying to explain?

tbh I kinda just wanted to brag about my amazing strategy. Plan would have worked if I killed Sevo and not Zero.

[LordofFail]

thats quite the wall you put there alouvre

ill get to reading and responding to it soon; from my first read through I think we have a conceptual misunderstand of the core mechanics of FM. What really stood out to me was where you said that you find anyone who scumreads a townread of yours scummy. To me, people scumreading my townreads or vice versa is the central mechanic of FM; it generates discussions, defences are made and actions are analyzed to determine if a player's actions are protown or antitown since only scum will have antitown intentions with their posts (gamethrowing town can have antitown intentions to but i dont take into account people breaking rules in my reads).

I still think you are scum alouvre, and that your reasoning for pushing for the melanora lynch is flawed, but I would like to hear from others.

@everyone else: what is your opinion on alouvre? Do you think they are town or scum and why?

ill get to posting my wall response to your wall shortly alouvre.

Spoiler:

[alouvre]

god please don't become a second cyantic ok

and you misunderstood me, I meant pushing on someone I think is town for poor/ingenuine reasoning. Ladd pushed on kirize who i thought was town, but I didn't yell at him because his case looked genuine, while with mel it did not. It's not just me, so many others do the same. basically it's accusing someone else for pushing a mislynch vs thinking they're misled. Does that make sense?

well yeah N, kudos for that, but you said you were going to elaborate. Elaborate what?

[TrueGent]

yauaustin202 has requested replacement.
milte345 will be replaced for inactivity.

[npromin1]

I meant I was gonna try and elaborate on stuff in general.

[alouvre]

Also one more thing before I actually get my ass off:

doesn't matter if you still think the case is stupid, do you believe the case could have come from town with, in your opinion, flawed reasoning? Because I think your reasoning is flawed but as the game goes on you're looking more like town with opinions that I just disagree with. If you actually don't think that the case could've come from town then feel free to continue the argument and explain WHY you think it CAN'T come from town but if you believe it makes sense from an alternative town perspective wyd

ok bye please stab me if I come back, I have hw to do

Pedit: N what "stuff"

[PokemonKidRyan]

Personally I don't see alouvre + Ryan as an informed team. If there is Mafia amongst them, the other is not.
Mela lynch was couple of Towns going tunnelminded. Might be there is one Maf among them. Don't think more, too risky.

I personally see Ryan as more of a townie as Alouvre, but, only slightly.
I think they are probably both town, but, out of the both, Alouvre is highest scum rating to me out of the two of them.

Is anyone in this town capable of sharing their opinions on the game?!!
Or are you all just going to sit back and let others play, then blame them if Town loses? We need to discuss!

I've been busy.....
But, when I can, I will make a giant reads list.
Maybe even just post them in small chunks so you have my opinions sooner rather than later.

I meant I was gonna try and elaborate on stuff in general.

Me too. I want to elaborate more on my posts.
It will make my reads better perhaps, which may help town more.