Gamethrowing vampires

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Gamethrowing vampires

Postby Emilie9263 » Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:53 pm

Hi!

Something just happened in a game. I reported it and I wonder if I was right. To me it was obvious gamethrowing, but some of the players believed it was not so...

There was 3 players left. 2 townies and a vampire. Who was who was perfectly known by all. Both of the townies decided to let the vampire bite them instead of lynching him. They said it was alright and they could all win this way. But it's not! I mean the townies played better than the vamp since they ended 2 against 1. I was a town member, I was a bg and I killed the mafioso. Did I not deserve the win like town? I was so mad! It's like when town let mafia win.
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Re: Gamethrowing vampires

Postby ronit » Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:12 pm

This is not gamethrowing, the town members who are converted to vampires are not going against their new goal.
My opinion: This is the broken mechanics of vampires.
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Re: Gamethrowing vampires

Postby Emilie9263 » Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:47 pm

It's not what I mean. I agree that if a town member gets bitten, he gets a new goal and does not play for town anymore. But in this situation, the two townies lenghtened the game on purpose so the vampire could bite them. All the town members that died (and were still in the graveyard waiting) lost because of this. Are you going to tell me that those townies were within their rights to make everyone waste their time (because it took two days to get everyone turned and for this game to end)? How is this situation different of the one where two town members decide to let the last mafia member get them because he is their friend? Two townies had the possibility to win for town (and they were both townies at that time, a vigilante and a spy), but they chose to wait and it changed everything.

Sorry, I'm rambling here but this situation really makes me mad and no one seem to get what I'm trying to say. To resume, since when is it allowed in Town of Salem to go against our roles' goal? Or purposedly delay a game? To me, there is really a problem here.
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Re: Gamethrowing vampires

Postby Ansem555 » Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:16 pm

I understand what you're saying, and you were right to report them. The Admins have answered this question and have said that yes it is gamethrowing to try and turn into a Vampire because that is going against your Town goal trying to do it on purpose. You have to play like Town until the moment you are bitten, forcing a bite or suggesting that only they can win as Vampires is throwing just like anything else you do Anti-Town when you're a Town member.

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Re: Gamethrowing vampires

Postby chitownmvp01 » Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:10 pm

I
ronit wrote:This is not gamethrowing, the town members who are converted to vampires are not going against their new goal.
My opinion: This is the broken mechanics of vampires.


Allowing themselves to get bitten goes against the townie's goals though. I do agree with you on this being a grey area.
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Re: Gamethrowing vampires

Postby Ansem555 » Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:25 pm

chitownmvp01 wrote:I
ronit wrote:This is not gamethrowing, the town members who are converted to vampires are not going against their new goal.
My opinion: This is the broken mechanics of vampires.


Allowing themselves to get bitten goes against the townie's goals though. I do agree with you on this being a grey area.


Not grey at all, actually. According to this post, it's pure Gamethrowing:
viewtopic.php?p=970114#p970114

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Re: Gamethrowing vampires

Postby James2 » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:26 am

Emilie9263 wrote:Hi!

Something just happened in a game. I reported it and I wonder if I was right. To me it was obvious gamethrowing, but some of the players believed it was not so...

There was 3 players left. 2 townies and a vampire. Who was who was perfectly known by all. Both of the townies decided to let the vampire bite them instead of lynching him. They said it was alright and they could all win this way. But it's not! I mean the townies played better than the vamp since they ended 2 against 1. I was a town member, I was a bg and I killed the mafioso. Did I not deserve the win like town? I was so mad! It's like when town let mafia win.


The admins have declared it to be gamethrowing. That said, and with all due respect to them, that's stupid, for the reasons I and others pointed out in Ansem's link. It makes zero sense to say that doing X to win is gamethrowing when X was deliberately put in the game as a means of winning. I'd view such a situation like when mafia decides to kill the witch before killing the last town, as people being jackasses, but not gamethrowing, so I wouldn't report them.
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Re: Gamethrowing vampires

Postby theo07 » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:03 pm

Town's winning condition state that they must kill vampires.It is gamethrowing.
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Re: Gamethrowing vampires

Postby shapesifter13 » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:15 pm

This isn't a grey area, they went against their goal as town, that is gamethrowing.
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Re: Gamethrowing vampires

Postby James2 » Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:16 pm

It doesn't make sense to call it gamethrowing if it's a means of winning. Gamethrowing is playing to lose. If you declare X gamethrowing you shouldn't make it so that X is a feasible means of winning the game.
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Re: Gamethrowing vampires

Postby James2 » Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:26 pm

If becoming a vampire is against their wincon, then they shouldn't be allowed to win as vampire.
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Re: Gamethrowing vampires

Postby Ansem555 » Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:50 pm

That argument doesn't work because as Town they have their own win conditions which is to NOT become Vamps and kill them. Playing against that by trying to become Vamp on purpose is throwing because you are going against your original Town goal, so you are throwing as Town to win with Vamps and screw over your original faction when you don't need to (just want to for "lols" or your own reasons).

The above, first post example is just that: The two townies screwed over the people in the grave to win as Vamps and win with them when Town should have won. Gamethrowing for Town. This isn't about "Well they CAN win that way" it's about your team as this is a team game.

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Re: Gamethrowing vampires

Postby James2 » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:43 pm

What exactly is a "win condition" other than the condition in which one wins? If it's possible to become a vampire, then their win condition is, in fact, lynch all criminals and evildoers or get converted to vampire and convert everyone else.

If it's about team victory then:

A. They shouldn't have made it so you can win apart from your team, and
B. The justification for blanketly banning leaving falls apart if gamethrowing refers to your team's wincon rather than your wincon, since there are circumstances where people could argue that leaving would benefit their team (e.g. An unimportant role leaving after death so the rest wouldn't waste a resurrection). If gamethrowing is going against your personal wincon, then banning that makes perfect sense, as leaving results in automatic loss, but if gamethrowing is going against your team's wincon, then leaving could be a valid strategy.
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Re: Gamethrowing vampires

Postby ICECLIMBERS » Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:19 pm

I'd be mad if I were a dead town member if something like this happened.
In a 2v1 with all roles known town is obligated to vote for the last remaining evildoer.
Plus it's quicker.
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Re: Gamethrowing vampires

Postby LevinSnakesRise » Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:01 am

This has already been answered, but some people obviously don't seem to understand English.

"Role conditions" are the conditions you are given at the start of the game with your role card. You follow them. Nothing else.

Town is a team-effort, like Mafia. If the rest of Town died, and there were 2 left, with a Vampire, those two should lynch the Vampire. That is their goal. To let the Vampire convert them to take away the win deserved by the Town, is gamethrowing.

There is no Gray Area here, and to be bluntly honest, this isn't up for discussion, as now a second staff member has stated it's gamethrowing, and you are not to do it. End of discussion.
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Re: Gamethrowing vampires

Postby James2 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:11 am

Naru2008 wrote:"Role conditions" are the conditions you are given at the start of the game with your role card. You follow them. Nothing else.


So then the goal has been arbitrarily defined as "win in X way", rather than simply to win. This is the problem with establishing a goal that is not equivalent to the win condition.

And if it's a team game then you shouldn't be able to leave your team.
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Re: Gamethrowing vampires

Postby BirdyThePhoenix » Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:34 am

James2 wrote:
Naru2008 wrote:"Role conditions" are the conditions you are given at the start of the game with your role card. You follow them. Nothing else.


So then the goal has been arbitrarily defined as "win in X way", rather than simply to win. This is the problem with establishing a goal that is not equivalent to the win condition.

And if it's a team game then you shouldn't be able to leave your team.


It's all about deception. There is a reason that vampires can't bite mafia members; everyone would know. For example, if you had a confirmed spy, and they were bitten by a vampire, it adds a whole new layer of deception because people may think that they are still the spy.
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Re: Gamethrowing vampires

Postby James2 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:50 am

birdyluv0 wrote:
James2 wrote:
Naru2008 wrote:"Role conditions" are the conditions you are given at the start of the game with your role card. You follow them. Nothing else.


So then the goal has been arbitrarily defined as "win in X way", rather than simply to win. This is the problem with establishing a goal that is not equivalent to the win condition.

And if it's a team game then you shouldn't be able to leave your team.


It's all about deception. There is a reason that vampires can't bite mafia members; everyone would know. For example, if you had a confirmed spy, and they were bitten by a vampire, it adds a whole new layer of deception because people may think that they are still the spy.


I understand the argument for adding vampires. I don't like it but since they are there, the goal should be made to remain consistent with the win conditions.

To use your own example, even if a spy is converted, there's no natural reason (based on game mechanics and win conditions) for living town members (other than vh) not to trust the ex-spy. They're still anti-mafia and anti-nk, and the townies can still win with them. The only reason for distrusting them is because the goal (which is not what determines your win) says so, it's an artificial imposition.

One way to avoid this, would be to make it so that dead townies (other than vh) win when vampires win (but not vice versa). This way, vampires still have a motive to convert, and are still a nerf to town(since their converts lose their abilities), but any issue of gamethrowing is removed, and there's no reason to want conversion, as it is only a restriction on winning (in this scenario, vampire win condition would be town win condition plus making sure the town is all vampires), whereas currently if you suspect vampires will win, it's to your advantage to be converted early, lest you die as town (which is against the rules as it stands now, but if the rules require that which is strategically disadvantageous, that seems highly problematic).
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Re: Gamethrowing vampires

Postby Kbooze » Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:04 pm

This IS gamethrowing. I don't get what people are misunderstanding here.

Let's say there are 2 town and the GF left.

Town 1: Hey GF, I know who you are. I don't like ____ on my team so I'm going to let you win.
Town 2: Wait what??? How is that fair?!
Godfather: Thanks bro, that's really cool.
Town 1: Don't mention it. I like Mafia more anyways.
**Voting phase starts**
Godfather votes for Town 2
Town 2 votes for Godfather
Town 1 doesn't vote
**Night**
GF kills Town 2 / Dead chat is raging their heads off
**Next day**
Godfather: Thanks again man.
Town 1: Don't mention it.
**No one votes**
**Night**
Godfather kills Town 1
**Next Day**
**Mafia wins!**

Sure the situation is "different", but not really. The one townie ruined their earned win by siding with the mafia, ergo not completing their wincon, and gamethrowing.
What's the difference with the OP's story? Well, I'd say it's even worse when they do what THEY did. They are saying "screw this ship it's sinking, I think I'll board this neutral ship". Mutiny.

The captain AND crew go with the ship.

Now if you are fairly STOLEN from your own ship, then yes. by all means complete your new wincon and don't feel bad about it. But don't just go and abandon your ship because it's sinking.

That's my take on it. /endrant/
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Re: Gamethrowing vampires

Postby testaccount1234 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:04 am

Kbooze wrote:This IS gamethrowing. I don't get what people are misunderstanding here.

Let's say there are 2 town and the GF left.

---SNIP---

Sure the situation is "different", but not really. The one townie ruined their earned win by siding with the mafia, ergo not completing their wincon, and gamethrowing.
What's the difference with the OP's story? Well, I'd say it's even worse when they do what THEY did. They are saying "screw this ship it's sinking, I think I'll board this neutral ship". Mutiny.

The captain AND crew go with the ship.

Now if you are fairly STOLEN from your own ship, then yes. by all means complete your new wincon and don't feel bad about it. But don't just go and abandon your ship because it's sinking.

That's my take on it. /endrant/


The difference between your scenario and the scenario that OP posted is that the townies who sided with Vampires could win with them while the townies who sided with Mafia can't. In fact, if you were the last townie and there was only a Godfather & Vampire left, who would you side with?

Gamethrowing is essentially purposely trying to lose. Getting the Vampire to bite you isn't gamethrowing but it does make you a huge douchebag if you could've won with town instead. Getting the Mafia to kill you is considered gamethrowing because you can't win with Mafia & when they kill you, you lose and they win. Obviously your scenario poses as the worst one and not OP's.
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Re: Gamethrowing vampires

Postby Mroz4k » Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:12 am

The person who game-threw will win either way, thats the sad part.

However, everyone else in the dead chat, of Townies, who were waiting for the victory, will not. And because they are the ones that deserve to win
this is game-throwing. The person didnt play the game to loose it for himself, he played it to loose it for his allignment, when his allignment was
supposed to win.

Lets not forget what Town´s goal says:
Lynch all the evildoers:
Kill Mafia
Kill Serial Killers
Kill Arsonists
Kill Witches
Kill Werewolf
Kill Vampires

A Town member is supposed to kill Vampires. End of discussion.
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Re: Gamethrowing vampires

Postby testaccount1234 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:19 am

The "game-thrower" will win either way but they can choose to share their victory with the Town or the Vampires. The notable difference is the amount of time it takes to achieve that win. However, there is a line of strategy to this.

In OP's scenario, if one townie member didn't want to lynch the vampire, what should the other do? Should they go along with the Vampire or fight it out til the very end as town? If one townie in that situation refuses to co-operate, the Vampire can just lynch the townie that still wants to win with the town. In fact, it's more risky to side with the Town than to actually just side with the Vampire because if the other townie makes a deal with the Vampire, they know that they'll have to side with the Vampire. Let's look at the possible outcomes (assuming of course none of them are Vamp Hunters).

Outcomes:
Townie 1 wants to win with Town, Townie 2 wants to win with Town = Vampire gets lynched, town wins.
Townie 1 wants to win with Town, Townie 2 wants to win with Vampire = Townie 1 gets lynched, Townie 2 & Vampire wins.
Townie 1 wants to win with Vampire, Townie 2 wants to win with Town = Townie 2 gets lynched, Townie 1 & Vampires wins.
Townie 1 wants to win with Vampire, Townie 2 wants to win with Vampire = No-one gets lynched, Both townies & Vampire wins.

If you look at the possible scenarios, 75% of the outcomes go for the Vampires winning. Also, there's also a chance that in the last scenario, the Vampire will get bored of waiting and lynch the Un-turned Townie. So the best route in this case is to whisper to the Vampire that you want to win with them. After all, if the other townie whispers to them first, you've pretty much lost.

Would you rather have a great chance of winning at the cost of less people winning with you or have more people win with you at the cost of a trusting the other townie to vote with the Vampire?

Even though with it's a team game, sometimes you'll have to think about yourself in order to give an increased chance of winning. With the Vampires changing win conditions, you'll have to take that into consideration when put into scenarios like this. Here's another scenario for you.

Hypothetical Situation 2
There's two investigators, a medium, a revealed Mayor & two vamps. You are the revealed Mayor. Everyone knows who is who and the Vampires are just minutes away from losing. However, at the beginning of the day, one of the vampires publicly announces that they're going to bite you if you lynch one of them. What do you do? Do you essentially 'gamethrow' and vote for one of your own or turn into a Vamp and lose because of it?
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Re: Gamethrowing vampires

Postby James2 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:04 pm

Kbooze wrote:This IS gamethrowing. I don't get what people are misunderstanding here.

Let's say there are 2 town and the GF left.

Town 1: Hey GF, I know who you are. I don't like ____ on my team so I'm going to let you win.
Town 2: Wait what??? How is that fair?!
Godfather: Thanks bro, that's really cool.
Town 1: Don't mention it. I like Mafia more anyways.
**Voting phase starts**
Godfather votes for Town 2
Town 2 votes for Godfather
Town 1 doesn't vote
**Night**
GF kills Town 2 / Dead chat is raging their heads off
**Next day**
Godfather: Thanks again man.
Town 1: Don't mention it.
**No one votes**
**Night**
Godfather kills Town 1
**Next Day**
**Mafia wins!**

Sure the situation is "different", but not really. The one townie ruined their earned win by siding with the mafia, ergo not completing their wincon, and gamethrowing.
What's the difference with the OP's story? Well, I'd say it's even worse when they do what THEY did. They are saying "screw this ship it's sinking, I think I'll board this neutral ship". Mutiny.

The captain AND crew go with the ship.

Now if you are fairly STOLEN from your own ship, then yes. by all means complete your new wincon and don't feel bad about it. But don't just go and abandon your ship because it's sinking.

That's my take on it. /endrant/


The difference is *really* different. The fact it is different is what the whole issue is about. In your scenario, the gamethrowers lose. In the OP's scenario, the "gamethrowers" win the game, which means they aren't really gamethrowing.

To use your analogy, a sailor who is captured in war is NOT supposed to aid the enemy, yet the rules of ToS require converted townies to help their new team. It's simply illogical to expect people to play as if conversion means loss, until they actually get converted.
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Re: Gamethrowing vampires

Postby Ansem555 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:49 pm

I really don't understand why we're still going with this, Devs, Admins and Mods have already said there is no gray area and Town can't go out of their way to become Vampires because that's game throwing against the other Town players. Arguing the "logic" will get nobody anywhere fast, change nothing, and you will be reported for it. Easy to follow.

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Re: Gamethrowing vampires

Postby testaccount1234 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:15 pm

Ansem555 wrote:I really don't understand why we're still going with this, Devs, Admins and Mods have already said there is no gray area and Town can't go out of their way to become Vampires because that's game throwing against the other Town players. Arguing the "logic" will get nobody anywhere fast, change nothing, and you will be reported for it. Easy to follow.


Obviously you have never read my post so I'll paraphrase it for you. I'll post both situations again for the sake of it.

Also please read through the entire post. Don't skim it! This is really important if you actually want to point a flaw in my theory.

Emilie9263 wrote:Hi!

Something just happened in a game. I reported it and I wonder if I was right. To me it was obvious gamethrowing, but some of the players believed it was not so...

There was 3 players left. 2 townies and a vampire. Who was who was perfectly known by all. Both of the townies decided to let the vampire bite them instead of lynching him. They said it was alright and they could all win this way. But it's not! I mean the townies played better than the vamp since they ended 2 against 1. I was a town member, I was a bg and I killed the mafioso. Did I not deserve the win like town? I was so mad! It's like when town let mafia win.


According to the OP, this was the current role-list (assuming of course the townies can't interfere in any way with the Vampire's conversions).
Townie
Townie

Vampire


Now, there are four ways this can turn out, and I'll quote myself on it:

testaccount1234 wrote:Outcomes:
1. Townie 1 wants to win with Town, Townie 2 wants to win with Town = Vampire gets lynched, town wins.
2. Townie 1 wants to win with Town, Townie 2 wants to win with Vampire = Townie 1 gets lynched, Townie 2 & Vampire wins.
3. Townie 1 wants to win with Vampire, Townie 2 wants to win with Town = Townie 2 gets lynched, Townie 1 & Vampires wins.
4. Townie 1 wants to win with Vampire, Townie 2 wants to win with Vampire = No-one gets lynched, Both townies & Vampire wins.


However, in my previous post I forgot to account for the percentage of the fourth outcome going either way. One leads to both townies getting converted while another leads to the Vampires being impatient and just lynching the non-converted townie. For the sake of argument, let's say that each of those outcomes have a 50/50 chance of occurring. Now let's look at the odds again.

Outcome 1: Townie 1 wins, Townie 2 wins, Vampire loses (25%)
Outcome 2: Townie 1 loses, Townie 2 wins, Vampire wins (25%)
Outcome 3: Townie 1 wins, Townie 2 loses, Vampire wins (25%)
Outcome 4.1: Townie 1 wins, Townie 2 wins, Vampire wins (12.5%)
Outcome 4.2: Un-converted Townie wins, Converted Townie wins, Vampire wins (12.5%)

Now there's a 62.5% chance of winning with the Vampires & 37.5% of winning win the Town in total. However, if you are one of the townies (let's say Townie 1) and you don't want to win with the Vampires, here are the odds of winning:

Outcome 1: Other townie betrays you, you lose (50%)
Outcome 2: Other townie helps you, you win (50%)

Basically, you have a 50% chance of winning while a 50% chance of losing. However, if you want to side with the Vampire...

Outcome 2: Other townie wants to win with town, you win (50%)
Outcome 4: Other townie wants to win with Vampire, you might win (50%) = (possible scenarios inside: 8.25% + 8.25% + 8.25% + 8.25%)

Outcome 4 can get more explored deeply. Now the Vampire can either bite you or the other townie. Of course the Vampire will likely bit the person who whispered to them first but let's assume the Vampire goes for RNG.

Outcome 4A: You get bit, Vampires are patient, you win (25%)
Outcome 4B: You get bit, Vampires are impatient, you win (25%)
Outcome 4C: Other townie gets bit, Vampires are patient, you win (25%)
Outcome 4D: Other townie gets bit, Vampires are impatient, you lose (25%)

Since Outcomes A-D are from Outcome 4 which have a 50% chance to occur, each of those outcomes inside have a 8.25% of occuring. Which means if you are willing to side with the Vampire, there will be a 91.75% of you winning in this scenario.

With the recent Vampire role able to change win conditions, the calculations clearly show it's more beneficial to side with Vampires than with the Town.

However, you say this:
Ansem555 wrote:Devs, Admins and Mods have already said there is no gray area and Town can't go out of their way to become Vampires because that's game throwing against the other Town players.


Now, here's a hypothetical situation that you ignored that has a gray area.

testaccount1234 wrote:
Hypothetical Situation 2
There's two investigators, a medium, a revealed Mayor & two vamps. You are the revealed Mayor. Everyone knows who is who and the Vampires are just minutes away from losing. However, at the beginning of the day, one of the vampires publicly announces that they're going to bite you if you lynch one of them. What do you do? Do you essentially 'gamethrow' and vote for one of your own or turn into a Vamp and lose because of it?


Okay, I'll give you a helping hand on this one. Here's the role-list that everyone knows now.

Investigator
Investigator
Medium
Mayor

Vampire
Vampire


At the start of the day, one of the Vampires publicly says that they're going to bite the Mayor if the Mayor doesn't side with them.

Now why would the Vampires do that. Why not bite an investigator or a medium? Because once one of the Vampires is lynched, it will only take one Mayor vote to put someone on stand and one Mayor vote to lynch them. However, why not just bite the Mayor in secret? Because then every townie will know that the Mayor turned Vampire because he lost his three votes.

So it looks like the only option for Vampires is to accept a loss. I mean, it seems like they already lost. Everyone already knows who they are. However, one of the Vampires have just figured out a way to make sure that the Vampires secure victory. They're essentially taking the Mayor down with them if they are lynched.

Now as the Mayor, what would you do? Should you gamethrow and lynch one of your townies in order to win for yourself? Or will you let the vampires bite you and essentially securing yourself for a loss?
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