How does Jailor protect/does Jailor have a Powerful attack?

[Brilliand]

Just an aside: Veteran in particular is roleblock-immune for the sake of balance, not because there would be any sort of mechanical contradiction if the Veteran got roleblocked.

...

I am not talking about precedent. Escort, Consort, and every role capable of controlling an escort or consort (Witch, Transporter, Necromancer and Retributionist) all have to be roleblock-immune because they would have the potential to create actual contradictions in game mechanics.

Veteran, Serial Killer, and Pestilence (maybe not Pestilence?) are roleblock immune despite it being possible to remove their roleblock immunity without creating any sort of contradiction. Those roles are roleblock-immune because they are supposed to be powerful, and they wouldn't be powerful enough without roleblock immunity.

Your reasons Veteran should have roleblock immunity are fine, but they aren't as strong as the reason Witch needs to have roleblock immunity.

[kyuss420]

True. All protecting roles go before attacking roles. What is your opinion? Do you think Jailor has a Unstoppable or Powerful attack? Do you think Guardian Angel really has an exception?

I think jailor has a powerful attack. It just cant be stopped because no one can target the jailed player to stop it.

The only way to stop a jailor is RB, control or GA protect.

Jailing (day ability) is priority 1. Executing (night ability) is not.
GA probably has a priority 1 protect, as they are neutral, with different win conditions, so they have a higher priority to acheive their win conditions.

Altho GA doesnt protect from unstoppable attacks

[cob709]

True. All protecting roles go before attacking roles. What is your opinion? Do you think Jailor has a Unstoppable or Powerful attack? Do you think Guardian Angel really has an exception?

I think jailor has a powerful attack. It just cant be stopped because no one can target the jailed player to stop it.

The only way to stop a jailor is RB, control or GA protect.

Jailing (day ability) is priority 1. Executing (night ability) is not.
GA probably has a priority 1 protect, as they are neutral, with different win conditions, so they have a higher priority to acheive their win conditions.

Altho GA doesnt protect from unstoppable attacks

Jailor has unstoppable attack

[RiceHatMan]

Jailor has unstoppable attack

I think the whole point of this thread is to prove why Jailor has a Powerful/Unstoppable attack. Why do you think Jailor has an Unstoppable attack? Other than the fact that Jailor's role card says so. Jailor's role card is inherently misleading because it says Jailor gives pure Powerful defense, similar to Doctor and Crusader, and doesn't say it works more like Bodyguard and only protects from direct attacks.
EDIT: This is wrong, see below.

[cob709]

Jailor has unstoppable attack

I think the whole point of this thread is to prove why Jailor has a Powerful/Unstoppable attack. Why do you think Jailor has an Unstoppable attack? Other than the fact that Jailor's role card says so. Jailor's role card is inherently misleading because it says Jailor gives pure Powerful defense, similar to Doctor and Crusader, and doesn't say it works more like Bodyguard and only protects from direct attacks.

everything you say is bullshit


As seen in the picture above, Jailor's rolecard does NOT say it gives powerful defense.

[RiceHatMan]

Jailor has unstoppable attack

I think the whole point of this thread is to prove why Jailor has a Powerful/Unstoppable attack. Why do you think Jailor has an Unstoppable attack? Other than the fact that Jailor's role card says so. Jailor's role card is inherently misleading because it says Jailor gives pure Powerful defense, similar to Doctor and Crusader, and doesn't say it works more like Bodyguard and only protects from direct attacks.

everything you say is bullshit
As seen in the picture above, Jailor's rolecard does NOT say it gives powerful defense.

Whoops, my bad! Nevertheless, it is still inherently misleading because it says "Being in jail causes all direct visits to fail against the player." Well, why does Werewolf still work then? You could say only the player is protected from the visit, but it doesn't say that and all it says is "against the player", which should be interpreted as "all abilities that visit your target will be cancelled" and not "the visit won't actually fail, even though we just said that, but will instead not affect the target". Also, why does Juggernaut ignore jail then? That is easily explained by giving Powerful defense for direct attacks. The wiki also says that Jailor gives a Powerful defense (but that means absolutely nothing), and that is probably where I got that.
Also, anything else on why Jailor has an Unstoppable attack? In this thread I tried to justify why Jailor has a Powerful attack mechanically, not whether or not it says so on the role card.

[kyuss420]

Jailor has unstoppable attack

I think the whole point of this thread is to prove why Jailor has a Powerful/Unstoppable attack. Why do you think Jailor has an Unstoppable attack? Other than the fact that Jailor's role card says so. Jailor's role card is inherently misleading because it says Jailor gives pure Powerful defense, similar to Doctor and Crusader, and doesn't say it works more like Bodyguard and only protects from direct attacks.

everything you say is bullshit
As seen in the picture above, Jailor's rolecard does NOT say it gives powerful defense.

Whoops, my bad! Nevertheless, it is still inherently misleading because it says "Being in jail causes all direct visits to fail against the player." Well, why does Werewolf still work then? You could say only the player is protected from the visit, but it doesn't say that and all it says is "against the player", which should be interpreted as "all abilities that visit your target will be cancelled" and not "the visit won't actually fail, even though we just said that, but will instead not affect the target". Also, why does Juggernaut ignore jail then? That is easily explained by giving Powerful defense for direct attacks. The wiki also says that Jailor gives a Powerful defense (but that means absolutely nothing), and that is probably where I got that.
Also, anything else on why Jailor has an Unstoppable attack? In this thread I tried to justify why Jailor has a Powerful attack mechanically, not whether or not it says so on the role card.

WW doesnt kill the jailed player when he rampages at the jailor. WW doesnt kill the jailed player if he visits the jailed player..... only Jugg does this after n6 because ''ignores all defence mechanisms'' - His attack is unstoppable, jailor wont protect from jester haunt, guilt, or if the jailed target is previously hexed and every other player gets hexed on the night hes jailed, or if hes doused and the arso ignites.

In other words, jailor doesnt protect from unstoppable attacks. WW isnt unstoppable, WW is very much stoppable.

I would not take the word of the wiki as law. Look at it more of a guideline or rule of thumb. It wasnt written by the developers and they have had no input into its creation. You can just look at the priority list to see that, it really isnt accurate, but its accurate enough.....

[RiceHatMan]

WW doesnt kill the jailed player when he rampages at the jailor. WW doesnt kill the jailed player if he visits the jailed player..... only Jugg does this after n6 because ''ignores all defence mechanisms'' - His attack is unstoppable, jailor wont protect from jester haunt, guilt, or if the jailed target is previously hexed and every other player gets hexed on the night hes jailed, or if hes doused and the arso ignites.

In other words, jailor doesnt protect from unstoppable attacks. WW isnt unstoppable, WW is very much stoppable.

I would not take the word of the wiki as law. Look at it more of a guideline or rule of thumb. It wasnt written by the developers and they have had no input into its creation. You can just look at the priority list to see that, it really isnt accurate, but its accurate enough.....

Werewolf's visit doesn't fail, though, because they still get to rampage and kill anyone else that visits. The thing is, if jailing doesn't give protection, then why is it considered a "defense mechanism" when it makes all visits fail, not protection from attacks. I agree that Jailor makes all non-attacking visits fail, but when it comes to attacking visits, I think Jailor gives a Powerful defense from direct attacks.

[kyuss420]

WW doesnt kill the jailed player when he rampages at the jailor. WW doesnt kill the jailed player if he visits the jailed player..... only Jugg does this after n6 because ''ignores all defence mechanisms'' - His attack is unstoppable, jailor wont protect from jester haunt, guilt, or if the jailed target is previously hexed and every other player gets hexed on the night hes jailed, or if hes doused and the arso ignites.

In other words, jailor doesnt protect from unstoppable attacks. WW isnt unstoppable, WW is very much stoppable.

I would not take the word of the wiki as law. Look at it more of a guideline or rule of thumb. It wasnt written by the developers and they have had no input into its creation. You can just look at the priority list to see that, it really isnt accurate, but its accurate enough.....

Werewolf's visit doesn't fail, though, because they still get to rampage and kill anyone else that visits. The thing is, if jailing doesn't give protection, then why is it considered a "defense mechanism" when it makes all visits fail, not protection from attacks. I agree that Jailor makes all non-attacking visits fail, but when it comes to attacking visits, I think Jailor gives a Powerful defense from direct attacks.

It doesnt give any defence, it redirects the attack to the jail. Its more like being trapped for the night...

If jailor gave defence, he would need an unstoppable attack to over come the powerful defence that he gives his target.

[RiceHatMan]

If jailor gave defence, he would need an unstoppable attack to over come the powerful defence that he gives his target.

I actually explained this a while back on the same thread. Basically, Jailor only gives Powerful defense from direct attacks, similar to multiple Bodyguards. We know this because a Bodyguard can kill a jailed target. Jailor' attack, however, is not direct because they doesn't visit their target. We know this because they don't die when they execute their target while a Werewolf attacks their target. This means their attack can go through jail regardless whether or not Jailor has a Powerful attack or Unstoppable attack.

it redirects the attack to the jail.

What does this mean?

[RiceHatMan]

Ok, time to clear things up a bit, again. The point of this thread is to determine how Jailor protects and whether or not Jailor has a Powerful and not Unstoppable attack.
What I am proposing:

Jailor gives a protection exactly similar to Bodyguard's protection, the only difference being it will protect from multiple attacks and there will be no counterattacking. This means jailing will only protect from direct attacks and gives a Powerful defense to direct attacks.
Proof: Werewolf still rampages, their visit does not fail, and only your target is protected from it, similar to a Bodyguard protect. Also, Bodyguard's counterattack bypasses jail protection, so Jailor doesn't give pure Powerful defense.

Jailor has a Powerful attack that is indirect. This means Jailor can bypass the Powerful defense they give, because the attack is indirect and completely bypasses the defense regardless whether or not Jailor has a Unstoppable attack.
Proof: Jailor doesn't visit their target, or else they would die when they execute their target when a Werewolf also attacks their target. Jailor has a Powerful attack because Guardian Angel can protect their target from an execute.

[Brilliand]

Jailor gives a protection exactly similar to Bodyguard's protection

Except that it works against Astral attacks and Arsonist douses, and can stop multiple attacks not just one.

So basically Jailing is its own thing.

[RiceHatMan]

Except that it works against Astral attacks and Arsonist douses, and can stop multiple attacks not just one.

So basically Jailing is its own thing.

I already agreed that jailing fully negates all non-attacking visits. You are right, however, and Hex Master's astral visit is weird... Hex Master can bypass Bodyguard and Lookout, but other than that, it's literally the same as any other visit. It's still affected by Transporter (I think), and, obviously, Jailor. Jailor's jail can protect from multiple attacks, and it definitely is different, but I'm just saying it works similar to Bodyguards protect.
By the way, Hex Master is the only role in the game to have a true Astral visit. All other ones are indirect, which means they bypass jail and Transporter, in addition to Bodyguard and Lookout.

[kyuss420]

If jailor gave defence, he would need an unstoppable attack to over come the powerful defence that he gives his target.

I actually explained this a while back on the same thread. Basically, Jailor only gives Powerful defense from direct attacks, similar to multiple Bodyguards. We know this because a Bodyguard can kill a jailed target. Jailor' attack, however, is not direct because they doesn't visit their target. We know this because they don't die when they execute their target while a Werewolf attacks their target. This means their attack can go through jail regardless whether or not Jailor has a Powerful attack or Unstoppable attack.

it redirects the attack to the jail.

What does this mean?

Bodyguard kills a jailed target because - BG redirects 1 attack on his target to the BG. Player receives no boost to defence stat
just like Traps redirect 1 attack to the trap....but the target has to visit the player to trigger the trap. Player receives no boost to defence stat
Just like Jail redirects all attacks to the jail. ''You were attacked but you were jailed''. Player receives no boost to defence stat

So basically the jailed target is removed from the game board at night (which is why jailing is a day ability) and replaced with a jail cell, which blocks all visitors from using their ability on the jailed target. (GA doesnt visit) (astral visit, is still a visit). Only unstoppable attacks can bypass the jail cell... because, ya know, UNstoppable. Any effects on the player from previous nights arent purged (poison, hexes, douses) and are still in play while the target is ''off the board''.

Because BG kills a jailed target, technically the player isnt off the game board, he is ''indirectly'' visiting the jailor. Since its a day ability, LOs wont see it happen at night.

Personally I find the interaction between BG and jailed WW/SK slightly odd, but thats how BMG made it.... BG checks for an attack on his target, and redirects it while attacking the attacker, so its the only powerful attack that bypasses the jail

[Joacgroso]

I thought bodyguards received a basic attack from themselves if they succesfully protected someone. Does that mean that if they protect someone from a level 3 juggernaut they can't be healed?

[RiceHatMan]

I thought bodyguards received a basic attack from themselves if they succesfully protected someone. Does that mean that if they protect someone from a level 3 juggernaut they can't be healed?

Yes. If they were healed, it won't show that they died by guarding, but they will still die from the rampage. The target will not survive, but the Juggernaut will also die. Level 3 means Unstoppable, right?

[RiceHatMan]

Bodyguard kills a jailed target because - BG redirects 1 attack on his target to the BG. Player receives no boost to defence stat
just like Traps redirect 1 attack to the trap....but the target has to visit the player to trigger the trap. Player receives no boost to defence stat
Just like Jail redirects all attacks to the jail. ''You were attacked but you were jailed''. Player receives no boost to defence stat

So basically the jailed target is removed from the game board at night (which is why jailing is a day ability) and replaced with a jail cell, which blocks all visitors from using their ability on the jailed target. (GA doesnt visit) (astral visit, is still a visit). Only unstoppable attacks can bypass the jail cell... because, ya know, UNstoppable. Any effects on the player from previous nights arent purged (poison, hexes, douses) and are still in play while the target is ''off the board''.

Well, Unstoppable attack is still an attack. It's a value, and it normally goes through all protection because protection only gives you Powerful defense. It's a value that is still stopped by an Invincible defense. There really isn't any proof behind, " Ya know, it's has the highest value of attack, so, it should bypass something that negates all visits." There just isn't as much proof as "Jailing literally works like infinite Bodyguards when protecting against attacks, without counterattacking". Plus, in your case, the player is "off the board", so it doesn't matter if it is an Unstoppable attack, it's direct and visiting so it cannot hit someone "off the board". And there is a huge misconception here, Guardian Angel doesn't have an Astral visit, or visit in general. If your target is transported, you won't protect a different player. It's indirect because you will protect your target regardless of jail and transports, unlike Hex Master, the only role with a true Astral visit.

Because BG kills a jailed target, technically the player isnt off the game board, he is ''indirectly'' visiting the jailor. Since its a day ability, LOs wont see it happen at night.

Personally I find the interaction between BG and jailed WW/SK slightly odd, but thats how BMG made it.... BG checks for an attack on his target, and redirects it while attacking the attacker, so its the only powerful attack that bypasses the jail

What do you mean by Lookout won't see it. The jail? Of course you won't see the jailing, but you will still see Werewolf attack a Jailor from the jail, and Jailor doesn't visit their target when executing. Bodyguard is made that way because, in the Serial Killer's case, even if it isn't a visit, it still is a direct attack. Werewolf will visit the Jailor, however, and that works perfectly fine for Bodyguard to counterattack.

[kyuss420]

So youre saying a jailed WW will rampage at the jailors house and attack everyone? So that the LO will see the visit? No..becuase its not a night visit, jailing is a day ability. a LO wont see who is in jail, if he visits the jailor. How can the WW directly visit the jailor, if hes jailed?

Theres ony 1 role in the game with invincible defence, and jugg is the only unstoppable attack that requires visiting. Jester, guilt, arso ignition, hex bomb all happen without visiting and will happen through being jailed.

I never said GA has an astral visit, I said they dont visit. I added the astral part so you couldnt come back with ''Hex master doesnt visit, and they cant affect jailed people'' because an astral visit, is still a visit.

[RiceHatMan]

So youre saying a jailed WW will rampage at the jailors house and attack everyone? So that the LO will see the visit? No..becuase its not a night visit, jailing is a day ability. a LO wont see who is in jail, if he visits the jailor. How can the WW directly visit the jailor, if hes jailed?

Theres ony 1 role in the game with invincible defence, and jugg is the only unstoppable attack that requires visiting. Jester, guilt, arso ignition, hex bomb all happen without visiting and will happen through being jailed.

Jester, guilt, Arsonist ignition, and Hex Master's final hex all go through jail because they are indirect, not only because they are Unstoppable. Juggernaut is the only role with a direct Unstoppable attack, and is not an exception when it comes to direct visits. Jailed Werewolf visits the Jailor on full moons, yes. That is a fact, I don't really know what to say. I know Lookout cannot see who is jailed, I'm just saying Werewolf can still visit, while being "off the board".

[Brilliand]

Jailed Werewolf visits the Jailor on full moons, yes. That is a fact, I don't really know what to say.

This (non-)bug report suggests otherwise: Jailed Werewolf kills through bodyguards

That report is a bit weird, though. Near as I can tell a jailed Werewolf under the full moon... indirectly shows up at the Jailor's house and rampages there without a visit?

[kyuss420]

Jailed Werewolf visits the Jailor on full moons, yes. That is a fact, I don't really know what to say.

This (non-)bug report suggests otherwise: Jailed Werewolf kills through bodyguards

That report is a bit weird, though. Near as I can tell a jailed Werewolf under the full moon... indirectly shows up at the Jailor's house and rampages there without a visit?

So there ya go.... the player is never off the game board, but is at the jailors house when theyre jailed.

[RiceHatMan]

Jailed Werewolf visits the Jailor on full moons, yes. That is a fact, I don't really know what to say.

This (non-)bug report suggests otherwise: Jailed Werewolf kills through bodyguards

That report is a bit weird, though. Near as I can tell a jailed Werewolf under the full moon... indirectly shows up at the Jailor's house and rampages there without a visit?

So there ya go.... the player is never off the game board, but is at the jailors house when theyre jailed.

Well, in this bug report, it does say that the Werewolf appears at the Jailor's house and rampage there, not visit him. I actually thought that was how it worked, my bad. That means the attack is indirect, while a Serial Killer's is direct. I can see how this works, because Werewolf does a passive rampage. The thing is, if the Werewolf is at the Jailor's house, why do they still die when a Juggernaut visits them? In this case, if Juggernaut would instead visit the Jailor, Werewolf would have to die too, because they are literally at the same position as the Jailor. However, their attack is indirect, meaning they never visited the Jailor, meaning even they shouldn't be affected by the rampage, but in turn, they is in the same position as the Jailor, so they should be attacked by the other rampager, but if that is the case, that means the Werewolf is now two targets, one in jail and another at the Jailor's house. If they were not to die from the rampager, that means they shouldn't even kill the Jailor when they are released, because they are on the same position, meaning if they were to kill the Jailor, then another rampager would be able to kill them. So, in turn, the only explanation is that Werewolf is still at their own house when targeted by visits, but passively rampages at the Jailor's house when they is released.
Also, this makes no sense, because if a rampager were to attack the Jailor, the jailee wouldn't die, despite being in the exact same position.

[kyuss420]

because Jugg attack is unstoppable, so it bypasses the jail and kills whoever is there. Other rampagers dont have an unstoppable attack.

[RiceHatMan]

because Jugg attack is unstoppable, so it bypasses the jail and kills whoever is there. Other rampagers dont have an unstoppable attack.

Could you elaborate why an Unstoppable attack is an exception here? It's still a value, and it is still tied to a visit. Remember, if you are saying that Jailor doesn't give a Powerful defense from direct attacks, then you are saying the same thing with Bodyguard and Doctor, which is not true. Viewing an Unstoppable attack as "it's unstoppable" is not that great, because you could say Bodyguard protects from all direct attacks, except from ones that are "unstoppable". That's not a good explanation because that literally the same as saying Bodyguard gives you Powerful defense from one direct attack, but being more "it's unstoppable". You could also say Doctor heals you from all attacks, direct and indirect, except for attacks that are "unstoppable". Like, come on, an attack is Unstoppable because it can go through Powerful defense, not because it's "unstoppable". Doctor gives you Powerful defense from all attacks, direct and indirect. Bodyguard gives you Powerful defense from one direct attack, and Jailor gives you Powerful defense from all direct attacks. I don't see the misconception here, except that Unstoppable has "unstoppable" in it's name. Town of Salem already has an unstoppable force paradox, an Unstoppable attack is stopped by an Invincible defense, so it proves that attack and defense are true values and there is no exception because it is called "unstoppable". I don't get what you mean, because Unstoppable attacks still have a value, and, really, everything that protects from a Powerful attack but not an Unstoppable attack has a Powerful defense. You don't need any "it's unstoppable" stuff, the explanation is there, so there doesn't need to be an exception if there is something else that explains it without any exceptions.

[cob709]

because Jugg attack is unstoppable, so it bypasses the jail and kills whoever is there. Other rampagers dont have an unstoppable attack.

Could you elaborate why an Unstoppable attack is an exception here? It's still a value, and it is still tied to a visit. Remember, if you are saying that Jailor doesn't give a Powerful defense from direct attacks, then you are saying the same thing with Bodyguard and Doctor, which is not true. Viewing an Unstoppable attack as "it's unstoppable" is not that great, because you could say Bodyguard protects from all direct attacks, except from ones that are "unstoppable". That's not a good explanation because that literally the same as saying Bodyguard gives you Powerful defense from one direct attack, but being more "it's unstoppable". You could also say Doctor heals you from all attacks, direct and indirect, except for attacks that are "unstoppable". Like, come on, an attack is Unstoppable because it can go through Powerful defense, not because it's "unstoppable". Doctor gives you Powerful defense from all attacks, direct and indirect. Bodyguard gives you Powerful defense from one direct attack, and Jailor gives you Powerful defense from all direct attacks. I don't see the misconception here, except that Unstoppable has "unstoppable" in it's name. Town of Salem already has an unstoppable force paradox, an Unstoppable attack is stopped by an Invincible defense, so it proves that attack and defense are true values and there is no exception because it is called "unstoppable". I don't get what you mean, because Unstoppable attacks still have a value, and, really, everything that protects from a Powerful attack but not an Unstoppable attack has a Powerful defense. You don't need any "it's unstoppable" stuff, the explanation is there, so there doesn't need to be an exception if there is something else that explains it without any exceptions.

There's a story about the "Immovable Object" vs. the "Unstoppable Object"
Basically here's the premise: (idk maybe someone more informed can make this argument)

But anyways, the unstoppable force is an "exception" to the jailor's abilities. They basically override the fact that their target is jailed.
This is because Jailor has UNSTOPPABLE attack, and Juggernaut also has UNSTOPPABLE attack. They both have the same attack value, and therefore they are both able to attack and kill a jailed target.