How does Jailor protect/does Jailor have a Powerful attack?

[RiceHatMan]

People have been saying that there are two types of protections. One that gives pure defense, such as Doctor and Crusader, and one that only protects from direct attacks, which is Bodyguard. On Jailor's role card, it says it gives pure defense. This, however, is directly wrong, and should be only for direct attacks. Why? Because, if a Serial Killing or Werewolf is jailed they should have Powerful defense. However, they will still die when Bodyguard counterattacks them when they try to attack Jailor. This is the only indirect attack that is less than Unstoppable that can affect a jailed target, except from Werewolf attacking the Jailor in jail while another Powerful rampager also attacks the Jailor, but I have yet to see what happens in that situation. So this is the only proof that Jailor only protects their target from direct attacks, so unless Jailor's protect is in a grey area, this point is proven.
So this begs another question, does Jailor truly have a Powerful attack? Of course, the only proof is a Guardian Angel can protect you from an execute, and I have yet to see if the Jailor gets the high defense notification from the new update. Of course, some of you may be wondering how Jailor could bypass the protection they give through jailing, and that is where the aforementioned point comes in. Jailor's attack doesn't visit and is indirect, we know this because Werewolf and Juggernaut with rampage that attacks Jailor's target doesn't attack the Jailor when they execute. This means that Jailor's attack will go through the defense they give nevertheless. So, unless Guardian Angel protects from a Jailor's execute for no reason, Jailor should have a Powerful attack.

Therefore, the final questions are:
Does Jailor have a protection like no other Town Protectives?
Does Guardian Angel have an exception and give Invincible defense to executes?

[Flavorable]

Some quick info:

- Jailor has an unstoppable attack, not a powerful one.
- Jailor does not give defense, Jailor negates abilities of those visited the jailee.
- A GA heal is the exception, however, it does not give defense, it heals. Therefor, the attack still happens, but the attacked gets healed. GA is the only one that can heal from unstoppable direct attacks (so not from Arson ignite, or Hex Master's final attack, since those are passive attacks).


I suggest reading the rolecards and extended information about defense/attack values and game mechanics here: https://town-of-salem.fandom.com/wiki/Roles

[RiceHatMan]

Some quick info:

- Jailor has an unstoppable attack, not a powerful one.
- Jailor does not give defense, Jailor negates abilities of those visited the jailee.
- A GA heal is the exception, however, it does not give defense, it heals. Therefor, the attack still happens, but the attacked gets healed. GA is the only one that can heal from unstoppable direct attacks (so not from Arson ignite, or Hex Master's final attack, since those are passive attacks).


I suggest reading the rolecards and extended information about defense/attack values and game mechanics here: https://town-of-salem.fandom.com/wiki/Roles

So why doesn't Guardian Angel protect from a fully powered Juggernaut? Since that attack is even more direct that a Jailor's because Jailor doesn't visit their target. And Jailor does give protection combined with negating all non-attacking visits, because Juggernaut is able to break through the defense even when they directly visit, and rampagers are not negated, only the target is saved through jailing. A heal is supposed to give Powerful defense, and Guardian Angel will not protect from direct Unstoppable attacks, since they still die from fully-powered Juggernaut. I know the attack still happens, but it's not like the Doctors and Guardian Angels don't give Powerful defense. The whole definition of heal is to give Powerful defense for one night. Also, why would there be this random exception for Guardian Angel? It makes way more sense for Jailor to have a Powerful attack instead of a Unstoppable. I know it says Unstoppable, and what I am trying to propose is that Jailor has a Powerful attack mechanically. It probably says that to prevent confusion on why Jailor is able to attack through the defense they give.

[ScarfVendetta]

Some quick info:

- Jailor has an unstoppable attack, not a powerful one.
- Jailor does not give defense, Jailor negates abilities of those visited the jailee.
- A GA heal is the exception, however, it does not give defense, it heals. Therefor, the attack still happens, but the attacked gets healed. GA is the only one that can heal from unstoppable direct attacks (so not from Arson ignite, or Hex Master's final attack, since those are passive attacks).


I suggest reading the rolecards and extended information about defense/attack values and game mechanics here: https://town-of-salem.fandom.com/wiki/Roles

Guardian Angel's rolecard is unhelpful, to be fair.

Spoiler:


There is no mention that a Guardian Angel can protect against a Jailor's execution (only that their ability ignores jail, which is different). There is also no mention that a Guardian Angel's protection gives immunity to being voted and lynched the next day.

[RiceHatMan]

There is no mention that a Guardian Angel can protect against a Jailor's execution (only that their ability ignores jail, which is different). There is also no mention that a Guardian Angel's protection gives immunity to being voted and lynched the next day.

But why is there an exception? Is this intentional? The only explanation I can see is that Jailor has a Powerful attack, and I believe this is the case. Of course, this is just my opinion, and you can prove me wrong if you like.

[Brilliand]

It makes way more sense for Jailor to have a Powerful attack instead of a Unstoppable. I know it says Unstoppable, and what I am trying to propose is that Jailor has a Powerful attack mechanically. It probably says that to prevent confusion on why Jailor is able to attack through the defense they give.

Jailor can kill through jailing, and also through the Trapper's traps. I suppose you could call the Jailor's attack a "powerful attack that ignores all protective abilities", but that's... exactly what an Unstoppable attack is (since no role has passive Powerful defense).

GA blocking Jailor's execute means there has to be a special exception somewhere, whether that's in the Jailor's attack being a "special kind of Unstoppable" or a "special kind of Powerful".

[RiceHatMan]

Jailor can kill through jailing, and also through the Trapper's traps. I suppose you could call the Jailor's attack a "powerful attack that ignores all protective abilities", but that's... exactly what an Unstoppable attack is (since no role has passive Powerful defense)

Well, this is where I am right. The example is Bodyguard, why can they kill through jailing protection and trapper's trap even when they have Powerful attack? Well, they have an indirect attack, that's why. Same with Jailor, Jailor doesn't visit their target when they execute, meaning they have an indirect attack. It makes way more sense for Jailor to have a Powerful attack than for Guardian Angel to have an exception for no clear reason. Unstoppable attacks should go through Guardian Angels' protection, but Jailor does not do that, and therefore shouldn't have an Unstoppable attack, but instead a Powerful one.

[Brilliand]

Actually... yeah, that does hold together.

Jailing gives Powerful defense against all incoming visits only (not against indirect things like Bodyguard/Veteran).

Jailor's execute performs a Veteran-like passive Powerful attack against all jailed people (which is a big WTF).

[RiceHatMan]

Actually... yeah, that does hold together.

Jailing gives Powerful defense against all incoming visits only (not against indirect things like Bodyguard/Veteran).

Jailor's execute performs a Veteran-like passive Powerful attack against all jailed people (which is a big WTF).

The thing is, it doesn't really matter. Even if I am right, people would just not be confused and call a Guardian Angel out for cheating. There is absolutely no other interaction when this matters. My argument only stands when people cannot prove that Guardian Angel really has an exception for some reason, and it stands because there really is no other reason for Guardian Angel to protect someone else from a Jailor's execute. However, I do want this to be added to the game to clear things up, if I am right, that is. That isn't for this thread, though, and I am only asking if this really is the case, and why this is wrong if it is not the case. I would also would like to know why there is an exception in the first place if I am wrong.

[cob709]

it's a bug, developers will change it soon

[RiceHatMan]

it's a bug, developers will change it soon

I don't think Coven is a recent installment... the developers have probably been aware of this for a long time, and probably either decided it didn't need to be fixed or it was intentional. Plus, maybe Jailor always had a Powerful attack, and it didn't matter until Guardian Angel was added.

[Joacgroso]

it's a bug, developers will change it soon

Is that confirmed? GA's rolecard says that their protection ignores jail, which points to the feature being intentional.

Plus, maybe Jailor always had a Powerful attack, and it didn't matter until Guardian Angel was added.

But the rolecard lists it as unstoppable.

[RiceHatMan]

it's a bug, developers will change it soon

Is that confirmed? GA's rolecard says that their protection ignores jail, which points to the feature being intentional.

Plus, maybe Jailor always had a Powerful attack, and it didn't matter until Guardian Angel was added.

But the rolecard lists it as unstoppable.

Read my aforementioned points. If you find something that is wrong, feel free to point it out and prove me wrong. They prove why Jailor could have a Powerful attack and how it could be an explanation to why Guardian Angel protects from executes. It says bypasses jailing in the role card. Of course, this could definitely be implying that Guardian Angel's protect stops a Jailor's execute, but it doesn't directly say it anywhere.

[cob709]

im pretty sure that there are a bunch of hidden mechanics, some are more common than others, which is why they arent explained or very well-known

There are a bunch of "exception" rules

for example: transporter/veteran/escort/consort/CL cannot be roleblocked, unless they are being roleblocked by a jailor or pirate
another example: jailed players cannot be killed unless it's by a jester haunt, Juggernaut(Level 3), Pestilence, or Bodyguard(Counter Attack)

As a wise man once said

It's not a bug, it's a feature

I guess GA and Jailor just have a lot of special properties that result in having a bunch of "exception" rules

[Brilliand]

There are a bunch of "exception" rules

for example: transporter/veteran/escort/consort/CL cannot be roleblocked, unless they are being roleblocked by a jailor or pirate
another example: jailed players cannot be killed unless it's by a jester haunt, Juggernaut(Level 3), Pestilence, or Bodyguard(Counter Attack)

For the first, you just have two different roleblock types there (I'm not sure Pirate actually roleblocks harder than Escort does, but I know Jailor has a special "different thing than a roleblock").

Jailed player cannot be killed by Pestilence, unless rampage attacks have this effects when a jailed SK attacks the Jailor (I'm not sure).

[cob709]

There are a bunch of "exception" rules

for example: transporter/veteran/escort/consort/CL cannot be roleblocked, unless they are being roleblocked by a jailor or pirate
another example: jailed players cannot be killed unless it's by a jester haunt, Juggernaut(Level 3), Pestilence, or Bodyguard(Counter Attack)

For the first, you just have two different roleblock types there (I'm not sure Pirate actually roleblocks harder than Escort does, but I know Jailor has a special "different thing than a roleblock").

Jailed player cannot be killed by Pestilence, unless rampage attacks have this effects when a jailed SK attacks the Jailor (I'm not sure).

Yep, that's the point.

[Brilliand]

Yep, that's the point.

You're acting like there are a bunch of exception rules all over the place, but the specifics you're pointing out are all about the Jailor role (and most of them are not exceptions if you know the 'general rule' of how Jailor works).

[cob709]

Yep, that's the point.

You're acting like there are a bunch of exception rules all over the place, but the specifics you're pointing out are all about the Jailor role (and most of them are not exceptions if you know the 'general rule' of how Jailor works).

You're kinda missing the point now.

[kyuss420]

view defence as a stat.... some roles have basic defence, some roles have no defence (Pestilence has unstoppable defence) This changes depending on what happens during the night and what other players abilities were used on you.

some roles increase the defence stat of other roles to powerful, when they visit someone.... Doctor, Crusader, PM using heal potion. A ''heal'' is just a defence stat boost for 1 night. A crusader ''protect'' is just a stat boost for 1 night.

BG and Trapper give no defence stat boost. BG and trapper redirect 1 attack (2 simultaneous attacks on the BGs/Trappers target will still result in the target being killed, by 1 of the attackers) hence them protecting from a jailed SK/WW....the attack is redirected away from their target (the jailor).

Jailor gives no defence boost at all, but blocks all visits to the player they have jailed (with a fully powered up Jugg being an exception, as it bypasses all defence mechanisms) So jailor basically roleblocks anyone trying to target their target.... hence ''your ability failed...'' message. Since doctor/crusader couldnt target the player, the defence stat isnt boosted, so the execution goes through.

GA doesnt visit while protecting, so the ability to protect their charge still happens, as they werent roleblocked by their target being jailed, jailor had no effect on a non visiting player. The jailed players defence was boosted to the same stat as the jailors attack, so the attack is blocked is by the players defence.

And in the end, it all comes down to priority order. Many roles have multiple abilities combined into 1 ability, jailor, for example, has a jailing ability and an executing ability. While his jailing ability is priority no.1, his executing ability is not. His executing ability can be RBed, redirected by witch/CL and guarded against by a GA, so clearly GA has a higher priority than a jailors execution ability, just like escort, consort, witch, CL, ret. Which is totally understandable for a role with only 2 protections and completely different win conditions than any other role in the game.
All of the protection abilities in the game have a higher priority than the attacking abilities

[RiceHatMan]

view defence as a stat.... some roles have basic defence, some roles have no defence (Pestilence has unstoppable defence) This changes depending on what happens during the night and what other players abilities were used on you.

some roles increase the defence stat of other roles to powerful, when they visit someone.... Doctor, Crusader, PM using heal potion. A ''heal'' is just a defence stat boost for 1 night. A crusader ''protect'' is just a stat boost for 1 night.

BG and Trapper give no defence stat boost. BG and trapper redirect 1 attack (2 simultaneous attacks on the BGs/Trappers target will still result in the target being killed, by 1 of the attackers) hence them protecting from a jailed SK/WW....the attack is redirected away from their target (the jailor).

Jailor gives no defence boost at all, but blocks all visits to the player they have jailed (with a fully powered up Jugg being an exception, as it bypasses all defence mechanisms) So jailor basically roleblocks anyone trying to target their target.... hence ''your ability failed...'' message. Since doctor/crusader couldnt target the player, the defence stat isnt boosted, so the execution goes through.

GA doesnt visit while protecting, so the ability to protect their charge still happens, as they werent roleblocked by their target being jailed, jailor had no effect on a non visiting player. The jailed players defence was boosted to the same stat as the jailors attack, so the attack is blocked is by the players defence.

And in the end, it all comes down to priority order. Many roles have multiple abilities combined into 1 ability, jailor, for example, has a jailing ability and an executing ability. While his jailing ability is priority no.1, his executing ability is not. His executing ability can be RBed, redirected by witch/CL and guarded against by a GA, so clearly GA has a higher priority than a jailors execution ability, just like escort, consort, witch, CL, ret. Which is totally understandable for a role with only 2 protections and completely different win conditions than any other role in the game.
All of the protection abilities in the game have a higher priority than the attacking abilities

True. All protecting roles go before attacking roles. What is your opinion? Do you think Jailor has a Unstoppable or Powerful attack? Do you think Guardian Angel really has an exception?

[RiceHatMan]

im pretty sure that there are a bunch of hidden mechanics, some are more common than others, which is why they arent explained or very well-known

There are a bunch of "exception" rules

for example: transporter/veteran/escort/consort/CL cannot be roleblocked, unless they are being roleblocked by a jailor or pirate
another example: jailed players cannot be killed unless it's by a jester haunt, Juggernaut(Level 3), Pestilence, or Bodyguard(Counter Attack)

As a wise man once said

It's not a bug, it's a feature

I guess GA and Jailor just have a lot of special properties that result in having a bunch of "exception" rules

First of all, all these exception rules are either directly stated by the game, or are mechanically sound. Transporter/Veteran/Escort/Consort/CL cannot be role blocked because they have higher priority and cannot be role blocked or else the game will break. Jailed players can only be killed by indirect and unstoppable attacks, I literally just explained that, it's mechanically sound, not just this random exception. I could literally say, "Bodyguard cannot save you from a Veteran, because that is an exception." That's not how the game works, there is a reason for that. In fact, you can say any "exception" (of course, except for this Jailor example) and there will probably be a sound reason as to why it is there.

[Brilliand]

Transporter/Veteran/Escort/Consort/CL cannot be role blocked because they have higher priority and cannot be role blocked or else the game will break.

Just an aside: Veteran in particular is roleblock-immune for the sake of balance, not because there would be any sort of mechanical contradiction if the Veteran got roleblocked.

[RiceHatMan]

Just an aside: Veteran in particular is roleblock-immune for the sake of balance, not because there would be any sort of mechanical contradiction if the Veteran got roleblocked.

I actually have a different opinion about this, and I think Medusa is the exception. Veteran gives themselves defense, so they must have a priority of at least 3. Although the wiki says Medusa has a priority of 3, in theory, all attacks are only finalized at a priority of 5, or else Ambusher, with a priority of 1, would kill people before Doctor could give them defense. That doesn't mean anything, though, as Veteran would technically have a priority of 5 too. If we are talking about mechanically, Veteran should be role block immune, as Werewolf, the only other rampager that is in the classic version, stays at home mechanically when they are role blocked too. Veteran automatically stays at home and cannot attack directly anyway, so it makes sense for them to be completely unaffected by role blocks. Medusa is the exception here only because she has a true priority of 5, and she can directly attack others, meaning it would make sense for her to be role blocked. Juggernaut and Medusa are in another category of rampage. Why? Because they can both be completely role blocked, and they have the ability to kill themselves, unlike rampagers in the classic version, Veteran and Werewolf. This is probably because they have fluctuating priorities, since their abilities are able to change drastically. That is why Medusa and Juggernaut are the exceptions here, and not Veteran and Werewolf.
A problem with this, you may ask, is why Veteran is control immune while Werewolf isn't? This is simply because Veteran doesn't actually target themselves, similar to Doctor self heal and bulletproof vests. We know this because Veteran doesn't visit themselves when they select themselves, unlike Werewolf, who visits themselves when they select themselves, and can only not visit when they choose to do nothing (mechanically the same as selecting yourself). A Witch cannot make Doctors use their self heal or Bodyguards use their bulletproof vest, simply because they aren't targeting themselves. You could say then, Veteran could be effectively role blocked when Witch targets them, but Veteran doesn't have a targeting ability in the first place, so controlling really shouldn't do anything in the first place, in my opinion. This is not true, however, because a Survivor doesn't have a targeting ability and is still role blocked when they are controlled. There is no true explanation to this, all this explains if why a Witch cannot make a Veteran alert, simply because a Veteran doesn't target themselves.
Now that I have explained why Veteran shouldn't be role block immune and why they shouldn't be able to be controlled into alerting, another explanation (and the one I think is the right one) is that Veteran has a pseudo day-ability. What does this mean? It basically means you get the option of becoming a rampager for one night, just you can only stay at home and not target anyone. This means that Veteran has the same priority as Transporter, which they do. This makes perfect sense because it's kind of like a Werewolf choosing which nights they want to be able to rampage, except in this case, it is only pseudo and they will not be able to choose a target because of this.

[kyuss420]

Transporter/Veteran/Escort/Consort/CL cannot be role blocked because they have higher priority and cannot be role blocked or else the game will break.

Just an aside: Veteran in particular is roleblock-immune for the sake of balance, not because there would be any sort of mechanical contradiction if the Veteran got roleblocked.

priorities dude. If he wasnt RB immune, he also wouldnt be control immune, it could possibly even mess with the priority that he gains defence for all we know.....the defence probly has a higher priority than the RB immunity, So he would gain defence before he gets RBed and the game wouldnt know if he alerted or not

[RiceHatMan]

priorities dude. If he wasnt RB immune, he also wouldnt be control immune, it could possibly even mess with the priority that he gains defence for all we know.....the defence probly has a higher priority than the RB immunity, So he would gain defence before he gets RBed and the game wouldnt know if he alerted or not

No, role blocking has a priority of 2 and giving defense has a priority of 3. The reason is...

Now that I have explained why Veteran shouldn't be role block immune and why they shouldn't be able to be controlled into alerting, another explanation (and the one I think is the right one) is that Veteran has a pseudo day-ability. What does this mean? It basically means you get the option of becoming a rampager for one night, just you can only stay at home and not target anyone. This means that Veteran has the same priority as Transporter, which they do. This makes perfect sense because it's kind of like a Werewolf choosing which nights they want to be able to rampage, except in this case, it is only pseudo and they will not be able to choose a target because of this.