Double - Neutral Benign

[Mystoc]

it cant just do everything for town. That would makeit townsided. The clean is just as harmful as a janitor clean. Its not like doible wont claim its role.

its already killing one of its own allies to join their side I think thats plenty harmful!

Wills shouldnt even exist. But regardless a will will never provide THAT much info

with jailor transporter and invest their wills provide tons of info... if town had no wills evils win waaaay more town needs them trust me but that's a separate issue

See its not really hurting its faction it's just replacing one person in it. Amne gives town or maf another role, which is bad. This just takes a current role

you may as well just make the game start with 14 people then if that's gonna be your argument,

============================================================
pretend this role kills a town member joins town

in this case mafia doesn't have to waste a night killing that person so one extra person dies

it isnt a net gain of 0 with u killing and replacing the person its a loss of -1

since an extra person dies now sooner since mafia doesn't have waste a night killing a person since you did it for them,

Ye its not, and thats exactly why double is better

its better at not confirming itself but other then that no its very hurtful to the side it joins

btw i think you understand what im saying but dont want to admit it cause ive cleary explained it 3 times in a row mantee, i will not be doing so again,

its simple math town is gonna die one day sooner cause you one them anemsaic takes the place of someone who has already been killed so town will die at the same pace

=========================================================

The way I see it is that Double is a more balanced but slightly less fun variation of the Amnesiac. That is, more balanced in terms of not reducing/increasing the win chances of other factions when it is outside of said factions' control (like Amnesiac does), and less fun in terms of the person being killed (as they are denied from playing). The latter isn't really a huge issue, since you could argue that all killing roles aren't fun by the same standard.

I see no reason as to why both cannot coexist.

its much worse then anme flake read above why

[ManateeDude]

It is exactly 0 gain for the faction it joins. It does kill it but then it fills its role. Your acting as if its killing is removing the role entirely.

[Mystoc]

It is exactly 0 gain for the faction it joins. It does kill it but then it fills its role. Your acting as if its killing is removing the role entirely.

no its -1 you took their place but killed them mafia didnt have to waste a night killing them now, the game will end 1 kill sooner now

mafia now needs one less kill to win the game

anme takes the place of someone mafia already killed anme doesnt do mafias work for them

anmie is +1
double is -1

while i agree a version of anme is good that is a net gain of 0 this role doesn't do that

[Schultz128]

Amnesiac's mechanic is busted because it adds to a faction's number.

Double is essentially "I'm gonna take the slot of this shitter in this faction". It doesn't reduce Town's numbers, it reduces the Neutral numbers. Your argument that it makes the game end faster is pointless since Double is a NB in the first place.

[ManateeDude]

Thank god for people with good wording.

[DestroyerR225]

I thought the whole thing with Amnesiac is that you as a member of your faction needs to convince Amnesiac to join you? Every role has to have an impact in game, doesn’t it?

[Schultz128]

I thought the whole thing with Amnesiac is that you as a member of your faction needs to convince Amnesiac to join you? Every role has to have an impact in game, doesn’t it?

It's not even that. It's "remember BG or get lynched lol"

Amnesiac has shit/brainless gameplay with little to no consequences.

[BasicFourLife]

Double nearly always slightly benefits the faction it shoots. Because you usually want to target bad players, because you can claim and get yourself semi-confirmed if no one ccs. So it still benefits the faction it shoots.

[Mystoc]

You're forgetting that Double would not have a non-NB alignment to begin with, so the win conditions for the other factions would already be sped up with the sole existence of the Double. In other words, the fact that Double is Neutral Benign in itself is the thing speeding up the game, not it's ability.

is their a reason i wouldnt just kill someone N1 has double there no reason to risk dying with no goal i would want to aquire a role and goal has soon has possible,

even it you wanted to risk it it doesnt work like that just because you dont have a side yet doesnt mean you arent a person who can be attacked this role elimantes a body so mafia has one less body to kill to win,

the fact that Double is Neutral Benign in itself is the thing speeding up the game, not it's ability.

NB slows down the game, its 1 more person who the mafia or town needs to kill, this role does what all NB do but it "KILLS" NEUTRAL BENIGN https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/benign

it killing a person makes the game end one day sooner no other NB kills so argument its like another NB is invalid, i still dont understand how people arent getting this....

ingoring the fact this role cleans which is very hurtful to town and good for evils its a role that has to personally kill the side it wants to join, its very anti snyegery stop comparing it anmesiac, anme waits for the person to die from another source it itself isnt another source of a town death,

this role makes the day end 1 day sooner because it adds one more a person can die during the game, which is very hurtful to the side it is joining

explain how my last statement is wrong please

Amnesiac's mechanic is busted because it adds to a faction's number.

i agree but this role is way more flawed then amnesiac, they are both flawed roles

Double is essentially "I'm gonna take the slot of this shitter in this faction". It doesn't reduce Town's numbers, it reduces the Neutral numbers. Your argument that it makes the game end faster is pointless since Double is a NB in the first place.

your assuming the person playing this role is better then everyone elese in the game but ok, the positive of replacing a bad player is outweighed by all its anti syngergies

all neutral NB pick or have a side though they cant flip flop , surv is bad role im only comparing this anme

it does the killing for the other side no numbers are lost but the person you killed was killed by its own ally mafia doesnt need to waste a night killing that person

best exmaple i can give is LO visits vet on alert, LO Dies

next night anme remebers LO and now LO it was a net gain of 0 since town killed their own side

it would of been better if LO died to mafia and then amne rembered LO since mafia wasted a night to kill them, has opposed to town just doing the kill for them

I'm still astounded people don't understand this

each night mafia has one kill to use if they have to kill one less person the game will be easier for them to win, this role makes it so they have to kill one less person since to join the side it wants it has to kill the person

[Icibalus]

Look, people complaining about Double's impact on balance have literally zero idea of how basic maths works:
Let's take this example here:

11 Town
3 Mafia
1 Serial Killer
1 Double

Since we're doing Numbers here, the actual roles don't matter too much.

The Town have 11 votes and will likely have the Double side with them, pushing it up to 12 until LyLo. This extra vote dosen't mathematically matter, so Town effectively have 11 votes.
Before the Double jumps the Mafia can have a maximum of 4 votes because the Double is NB. This brings LyLo 1 day closer.
Before the Double jumps the Serial Killer can have a maximum of 2 votes because the Double is NB. This brings LyLo 1 day closer if the Mafia are eliminated.

Now, after the Double jumps:

If they jump into town, the Town still has 11 votes. This is +0 from pre-double.
If they jump into Mafia, the Mafia have a maximum of 3 votes now. This is -1 from the pre-double NB effect.
If they jump into SK, they can only ever have one vote. This is -1 from the pre-double NB effect.

This means that the LyLo shortening effect of Double is always counterbalanced once they jump. Mathematically, the Double's kill has zero effect on balance.
And because the Double MUST shoot before LyLo, the effect it being NB has on balance is always completely counterbalanced either by them being killed or them killing someone else.
Adding a Double had zero effect on the mathematical balance of the setup.

The cleaning and effect of the change in players is entirely Social and not mathematical in terms of its effect on balance, and I'd argue that all that does is add an interesting layer of strategy based on how people act around them.

[DragonClaw66]

After Icibalus' argument, I completely switched my opinion. I now think that the Double is a much better role. I really don't think that the Double belongs in Neutral Benign, though, because it has the ability to kill (even if only once).

[Mystoc]

Look, people complaining about Double's impact on balance have literally zero idea of how basic maths works:
Let's take this example here:

11 Town
3 Mafia
1 Serial Killer
1 Double

Since we're doing Numbers here, the actual roles don't matter too much.

The Town have 11 votes and will likely have the Double side with them, pushing it up to 12 until LyLo. This extra vote dosen't mathematically matter, so Town effectively have 11 votes.
Before the Double jumps the Mafia can have a maximum of 4 votes because the Double is NB. This brings LyLo 1 day closer.
Before the Double jumps the Serial Killer can have a maximum of 2 votes because the Double is NB. This brings LyLo 1 day closer if the Mafia are eliminated.

Now, after the Double jumps:

If they jump into town, the Town still has 11 votes. This is +0 from pre-double.
If they jump into Mafia, the Mafia have a maximum of 3 votes now. This is -1 from the pre-double NB effect.
If they jump into SK, they can only ever have one vote. This is -1 from the pre-double NB effect.

This means that the LyLo shortening effect of Double is always counterbalanced once they jump. Mathematically, the Double's kill has zero effect on balance.
And because the Double MUST shoot before LyLo, the effect it being NB has on balance is always completely counterbalanced either by them being killed or them killing someone else.
Adding a Double had zero effect on the mathematical balance of the setup.

votes stay same thats true, but the amount of kills the other side needs to win goes down by -1 thats why its -1

no because since it does a kill for the other side they dont need to waste a night killing the person read my post above yours, i explain it perfectly its -1,

the only instance it isnt -1 is with roles with no team like Nk then its +0

also you ingoring the factor that it cleans the role of the person it kills which is very hurtful to town esp jailor transporter and inves loosing what they had their wills and what their roles were is a huge blow to town

edit going to work not gonna be responding a while to posts on this thread

[Icibalus]

If Double dosen't clean their targets they HAVE to side with Town
this isn't hard y'know.

also i'm just saying but hte point of LyLo is literally exactly the same as the amount of kills needed to win the game -1
What determines LyLo is the amount of votes in the game. Therefore, Double has no affect on that.
why ToS dosen't end the game as soon as Mafia have parity with the town we may never know

The other thing you forget Myst, is that because of the way Cleaning works, the Double has assess to the wills of the Jailor/Investigator/Transporter and can put them into their own will, which completely mitigates your point about wills being negative to the town.
obviously wills are dumb but you know :shrug:

[BS4125]

After Icibalus' argument, I completely switched my opinion. I now think that the Double is a much better role. I really don't think that the Double belongs in Neutral Benign, though, because it has the ability to kill (even if only once).

It’s not a kill, it swaps roles and suicides

Removing a player from the game =/= Killing

[BasicFourLife]

Btw Double has a single flawed mechanic which needs changing. If the Double copies a role which HAS to survive until the end of game or do something that cannot be won while dead no matter what (ex: Witch, Jester, Exe, Surv etc), it wins as long as the Double wins.

[Shilster]

After Icibalus' argument, I completely switched my opinion. I now think that the Double is a much better role. I really don't think that the Double belongs in Neutral Benign, though, because it has the ability to kill (even if only once).

It’s not a kill, it swaps roles and suicides

Removing a player from the game =/= Killing

Double's kill is an actual kill, so you're wrong, but he can only do it once, so it's not a NK.

[BS4125]

After Icibalus' argument, I completely switched my opinion. I now think that the Double is a much better role. I really don't think that the Double belongs in Neutral Benign, though, because it has the ability to kill (even if only once).

It’s not a kill, it swaps roles and suicides

Removing a player from the game =/= Killing

Double's kill is an actual kill, so you're wrong, but he can only do it once, so it's not a NK.

No it’s not, the Double suicides but in the process swaps players with it’s target
The player is displaced from the game, but not the role, therefore doesn’t classify as a kill

[lemonader666]

After Icibalus' argument, I completely switched my opinion. I now think that the Double is a much better role. I really don't think that the Double belongs in Neutral Benign, though, because it has the ability to kill (even if only once).

It’s not a kill, it swaps roles and suicides

Removing a player from the game =/= Killing

Double's kill is an actual kill, so you're wrong, but he can only do it once, so it's not a NK.

No it’s not, the Double suicides but in the process swaps players with it’s target
The player is displaced from the game, but not the role, therefore doesn’t classify as a kill

It does kill, since cleaning only works when someone dies. But, it's not a harmful kill/a bad thing.

[Schultz128]

So what I'm hearing is this should be voted.

[Schultz128]

What’s the difference between this and an amnesiac with no feedback that can’t pick until N3?

One more time in English, por favor.

[BasicFourLife]

Btw Double has a single flawed mechanic which needs changing. If the Double copies a role which HAS to survive until the end of game or do something that cannot be won while dead no matter what (ex: Witch, Jester, Exe, Surv etc), it wins as long as the Double wins.

@Schultz ^

[BasicFourLife]

That’s not how this works. Survivor doesn’t win if other survivors win and it loses. If the double targets you, you should have done something to prevent that. If you failed, well, sucks to suck.

Double can target people for no reason. That’s why this needs to exist.

[Schultz128]

NEs should win after death by default regardless.

Only time you'll have two NBs show up is in a custom match or All Any, in both situations balance is not something to really care about.

[Mystoc]

well i give up cause i would be repeating myself

no other NB shares the same problem has this role, its the only NB the kills the side it joins , which means the other side who wants you dead has to do one less kill to you

also i'm just saying but the point of LyLo is literally exactly the same as the amount of kills needed to win the game -1
What determines LyLo is the amount of votes in the game. Therefore, Double has no affect on that.
why ToS dosen't end the game as soon as Mafia have parity with the town we may never know

no voting power is only what matters for town is only what they need to win mafia wins by killing enough people so they have majority one more death happening means that time, when mafia have majority, will happen day sooner and not being voteable its a huge difference, this role is hugely evil sided and hurts town way more then it does mafia, it makes mafia win a day sooner if it joins town and denies town info cause it cleans the role, on the other hand there no negatives for evils when it joins them

and why wouldnt the double vote with side hes going to join and help them win before he officaliy joins them and kills the person you act like before the double converts to a side he cant vote which isnt true

The other thing you forget Myst, is that because of the way Cleaning works, the Double has assess to the wills of the Jailor/Investigator/Transporter and can put them into their own will, which completely mitigates your point about wills being negative to the town.
obviously wills are dumb but you know :shrug:

where does it say the double has access to the cleaned will i read the whole role, and wills are not dumb every town of Salem like game has them for a reason dude they are needed ToS isnt a oddity here

but yea ALOT people seem to like this role, i think its better then the current anmesiac but has new problems the anme doesnt, i know when to give up here im bow out this one

[Icibalus]

the reason why wills are dumb is because they encourage Town to sit on information and to not bother trying to avoid being killed as investigatives
but that's a topic for another time.

What's important right now is I've literally mathematically shown that you're wrong about the Double, and there is zero reason for me to reiterate my argument when i've already done it.
You're wrong m8.