Warden [Mafia (Head)]

Old Role Ideas

A Question

Should Jailing and Imprisoning lower the target's visiting priority for the night instead of roleblocking the target? (Don't select this)
2
67%
Yes
1
33%
No
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 3

Warden [Mafia (Head)]

Postby Blackwolfe99 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:50 pm

Name:
Warden

Summary:
An ex-prison guard who uses their talent for intimidation for the Mafia's benefit.

Alignment:
Mafia (Head)

Attack: Basic
Defense: None
Priority: 1st (Below Jailor) (Imprison) 5th (Factional Kill)

Abilities:
-During the day, you may choose one player to imprison for the night.

Attributes:
-You may not imprison members of the Mafia.
-You must wait one night between imprisonments.
-You may speak anonymously to your prisoner.
-You may speak to the Mafia if you have not imprisoned a target.
-You may override the factional kill to kill your target.
-If you have not imprisoned a target, you may perform the factional kill directly.

Special Attributes:
Unique, conversion immune, Mafia night chat.

Goal:
Kill anyone who does not submit to the Mafia.

Win Conditions:
Mafia wincon.

Investigative Results:
Investigator: Your target is a Spy, Blackmailer, Jailor, Guardian Angel, or Warden. (As long as this is paired with Jailor result, all is well.)
Sheriff: Your target is a member of the Mafia.
Consigliere/Witch: Your target has built a shady prison cell near their house. They must be a Warden.

Additional Information:
All additional information has been addressed. (I think)

Role Interaction:
Jailor: If the Warden is jailed, then the Warden can not imprison that night. Jailor has priority over Warden, meaning Jailor will jail before Warden imprisons. Additionally Jailor can not be imprisoned, and will appear to be jailed to the Warden.
Pirate: Warden has priority over Pirate, and will imprison before they can duel. Also a Pirate can not tell the difference between a Jailor jailing and a Warden imprisoning their plunder target.
Spy: Spy will see Warden's target at the top of their list, Tactical Execution will count as two visits.
Serial Killer/Werewolf: This role will still die to the Serial Killer or Werewolf on the full moon if they are imprisoned.

Notification Text:
Selecting a target: You have decided to imprison (Playername) tonight.
Imprisoning a player: You have imprisoned your target.
-Imprisoned Player sees: You have been hauled off to jail!
Imprisoning a jailed player: Your ability failed because your target is in jail.
Normal jailor notifications while imprisoned
Without a imprisoned target: You did not perform your day ability. You may speak to the Mafia tonight.
Overriding Tactical Kill: You have decided to kill your prisoner tonight.
-Mafia Sees: The Warden has decided to kill their prisoner tonight.

Reason For Idea:
This is my attempt to lessen the confirmability for the Jailor, by creating a similarly functioning role Mafia Deception role. Now a Mafia Head role!

Debatable Things in Mind:
Just give me feedback, there's a lot open to discussion.

Achievements:
A Man of the Stage- Win your first game as a Warden. [20MP]
Spectacle of Lies- Win five games as Warden. [20MP]
Mafia's Grand Play- Win ten games as as Warden. [40MP]
Five Star Performance- Win twenty-five games as Warden. [100MP]
Ow, that hurts!- Be killed by a Serial Killer you imprison. [40MP]
How did you...?- Have a target you imprisoned die from an Unstoppable attack. [100MP]
Miscommunication...- Have a target you imprisoned be attacked by the Mafia. [20MP]

Lore: (Amazing lore by Cut)
Spoiler: The Warden looked up from his desk, staring into the bloodshot eyes of the Lookout who sat on the other side of the room's steel confines. His target had willingly wandered into his chambers under the impression that he would be having a friendly discussion with the town Jailor, but he had been sorely mistaken. The prisoner cried with agony as he looked down at his own snapped fingers, with a smirk appearing on the warden's aged face as he observed the grotesque scene that lay before him.

Throughout the next few hours the Warden continuously probed his captive for information, relishing every moment of the punishment he was inflicting. The Lookout, now at death's door, gave in to the pain and told the Warden everything he knew. He spoke of scenes he had witnessed in the early hours of the days prior, of how he had uncovered the identity of the Investigator as he sat in the bushes outside the Doctor's house, eavesdropping on their conversation from what he had thought was a safe distance. The Warden, now satisfied, laid back in his chair and picked up his phone. He dialled one of his many partners in crime and passed on what he had been told by the Lookout before slamming down the phone, asserting his dominance.

"Now, where were we?", the Warden chuckled to himself as he stood up, towering over the crippled and barely-conscious man who sat before him. Terrifying screams of agony echoed through the room but no sound escaped, for the Warden had taken this into account when constructing what he liked to call his "torture shack". After he had dragged the lifeless corpse to the center of the town, the Warden returned home. He spent the remainder of his evening cleaning up his shack, washing the bloodstains out of the carpet and collecting the pieces of fingernail that were littered across the table. After all, he wanted the place to look presentable in time for the following evening, where he expected his next visitor.


Tl;dr:
An MD role designed to trick the town into believing there is a jailor.

Changes:
-Changed alignment from Mafia (Deception) to Mafia (Head) Credit to Soulshade55r
-Removed restrictions on TM Mafioso. Credit to Soulshade55r
-Removed Amne restrictions.
-Changed abilities to fit suggestions.
-Added a few new notifications.
-Added SkyW's suggestions.
-Added Cut's lore.
Last edited by Blackwolfe99 on Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:52 pm, edited 22 times in total.
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Currently Working On:
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EvilPudding wrote:Interesting idea and it is balanced like the WW

/support
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Re: Warden [Mafia (Deception)]

Postby Mystoc » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:21 pm

yea this is an better version of consort who can rb roleblock immune roles and possibly consig if people believe your jailor and give their real roles

yea i get the point the is to make jailor not confirmed, this an overpowered version of two mafia roles though
-if we're gonna ignore its an OP version of two roles the concept COULD maybe work, i think it works better as a neutral killing or neutral chaos role not a faction role

a most obv nerf is this needs 3 uses only

-This role can not be remembered by an Amnesiac.


but amnesiac can remember any evil unique role a role shouldn't be so strong that it breaks the rules of the game if theres two allowed, that's how you know a role is OP

Mafia night chat.


how does it have night chat if it also has night chat with who it jails how can it talk to mafia without the prisoner noticing it?

=============================================================

this is easily countered too day 2 john says i was jailed, and sam says hey i was also jailed, ok theres a warden in the game guys dont trust what jailor says

now people won't give jailor their roles, but games were there isn't a warden will be obv since only one jail a night will happen so players will know whether they can trust jailor so this doesn't get rid of jailers confirmability 100% of the time

this just makes you and jailor useless when there's a warden in the game it expect jailor can kill, so really you just a glorified better consort who can rb role immune roles since no one will trust and give you there role

this idea doesn't do want you intended it to do so /nosupport
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Re: Warden [Mafia (Deception)]

Postby Soulshade55r » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:57 am

So underboss but being Deception? it would make more sense being support...
Nah I like underboss but it should be "Mafia Head" and should not be made unless they change mafia into tactical.

Also mafioso should be able to remember any mafia.

This is too overpowered for a normal mafia role if it was Mafia head I'd understand...

/No support sorry :c
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Re: Warden [Mafia (Deception)]

Postby fwogcarf » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:16 am

I understand that this is to make Jailor less confirmable.
/Support because I see this role as
1. Taking an extra day to lynch someone, providing mafia support
2. Jailor and Warden less confirmable (although if Warden does decide to "execute" and nothing happens, he's probably confirmed)
3. Sort of hoping that these two do NOT get placed in the same game, but hey, RNG is RNG
Spoiler: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1M79vYZu-WIKrW0WQ0pCISBq66DeBfSir5T7RCuy0OWY/edit?usp=sharing
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Re: Warden [Mafia (Deception)]

Postby Blackwolfe99 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:29 pm

Mystoc: I understand all of your concerns, if you have any other ideas besides the maximum uses let me know. There are a few things I want to address though, it becomes too easily confirmed if Amnesiac remembers the role, and I did say that if the Warden doesn't perform their day ability, then they may speak to the mafia. This means that they can not speak to the Mafia and their prisoner at the same time.
Soulshade55r: That was probably the biggest holdback on this (I started working on this in November!), and I definitely considered putting it in any other Mafia alignment. I may very well change it to Mafia Head, it could certainly fit the bill.
Fwogcarf: Thanks for the support, and you're right it would be a nightmare with both honestly, but it ultimately comes down to who does the town trust more? Also you never know it may be the Jailor who was going to execute but then getting roleblocked, dueled, or controlled.
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EvilPudding wrote:Interesting idea and it is balanced like the WW

/support
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Re: Warden [Mafia (Deception)]

Postby Blackwolfe99 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:42 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:So underboss but being Deception? it would make more sense being support...
Nah I like underboss but it should be "Mafia Head" and should not be made unless they change mafia into tactical.

Also mafioso should be able to remember any mafia.

This is too overpowered for a normal mafia role if it was Mafia head I'd understand...

/No support sorry :c

I never knew there was such a role as Underboss. As long as I've been playing Town of Salem, I used to rarely visit the forums until last year around April, I think, so I had never heard of Forum Mafia or most of the roles that are in it.
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EvilPudding wrote:Interesting idea and it is balanced like the WW

/support
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Re: Warden [Mafia (Deception)]

Postby Soulshade55r » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:45 am

Blackwolfe99 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:So underboss but being Deception? it would make more sense being support...
Nah I like underboss but it should be "Mafia Head" and should not be made unless they change mafia into tactical.

Also mafioso should be able to remember any mafia.

This is too overpowered for a normal mafia role if it was Mafia head I'd understand...

/No support sorry :c

I never knew there was such a role as Underboss. As long as I've been playing Town of Salem, I used to rarely visit the forums until last year around April, I think, so I had never heard of Forum Mafia or most of the roles that are in it.


Yeah well I'm now a Fm user mainly I play some Ranked Tos on the side
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Re: Warden [Mafia (Head)]

Postby Blackwolfe99 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:17 pm

Two questions for anyone who cares to answer them.
1) Should I keep it the Execution as a threat or should I make it more like Underboss whose execution overrides the factional mafia kill?
2) If the execution should override the factional kill, should this role continue to be called Warden or change it to Underboss?
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EvilPudding wrote:Interesting idea and it is balanced like the WW

/support
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Re: Warden [Mafia (Head)]

Postby Soulshade55r » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:34 pm

Blackwolfe99 wrote:Two questions for anyone who cares to answer them.
1) Should I keep it the Execution as a threat or should I make it more like Underboss whose execution overrides the factional mafia kill?
2) If the execution should override the factional kill, should this role continue to be called Warden or change it to Underboss?

Personally I like the name warden better, I'd go with Interrogator or Kidnapper aswell, but stick with warden it's a cool name
It should be able to kill, but Protective roles should be able to still protect against it and it would only do basic attack, and being the Mafia factional kill

This is why a lot of people want to change the way Mafia kills for example any Mafia can give up there night action to kill for example consigilere can do the night kill all the other Mafia can too they just can't perform there normal action, changing Mafioso into a Mafia Amnesiac/can copy Mafia abilitys and Godfather will be immune still to Sheriff but also gains feedback on every Mafias night action

This would make Mafia use there abilities better for example if a Janitor used all there cleanings but a Consigliere became Mafioso that means there is one Mafia member just sat there doing nothing, but with tactical no Mafia will become Mafioso because they can perform the kill without a mafios/gf

Also side note: Investigatior will find it hard to find the last Mafia out because there results change
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Re: Warden [Mafia (Head)]

Postby Blackwolfe99 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:27 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:
Blackwolfe99 wrote:Two questions for anyone who cares to answer them.
1) Should I keep it the Execution as a threat or should I make it more like Underboss whose execution overrides the factional mafia kill?
2) If the execution should override the factional kill, should this role continue to be called Warden or change it to Underboss?

Personally I like the name warden better, I'd go with Interrogator or Kidnapper aswell, but stick with warden it's a cool name
It should be able to kill, but Protective roles should be able to still protect against it and it would only do basic attack, and being the Mafia factional kill

This is why a lot of people want to change the way Mafia kills for example any Mafia can give up there night action to kill for example consigilere can do the night kill all the other Mafia can too they just can't perform there normal action, changing Mafioso into a Mafia Amnesiac/can copy Mafia abilitys and Godfather will be immune still to Sheriff but also gains feedback on every Mafias night action

This would make Mafia use there abilities better for example if a Janitor used all there cleanings but a Consigliere became Mafioso that means there is one Mafia member just sat there doing nothing, but with tactical no Mafia will become Mafioso because they can perform the kill without a mafios/gf

Also side note: Investigatior will find it hard to find the last Mafia out because there results change

I'll keep it Warden, Kidnapper makes me think too much of the Starcraft 2 Mafia.
Alright, I'll make the change.

I know how TM works, and I really like the concept. I was initially against it, but that changed after I got to see it in action and realized how useful it was.
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EvilPudding wrote:Interesting idea and it is balanced like the WW

/support
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Re: Warden [Mafia (Head)]

Postby Mystoc » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:40 pm

Mystoc: I understand all of your concerns, if you have any other ideas besides the maximum uses let me know. There are a few things I want to address though, it becomes too easily confirmed if Amnesiac remembers the role, and I did say that if the Warden doesn't perform their day ability, then they may speak to the mafia. This means that they can not speak to the Mafia and their prisoner at the same time.


you shouldn't limit amnesiacs choices just because its a dumb choice to do, even if people dont beilve your the real jailor your still rbing them that night even rb immune roles. you made unrememberable because the role would be too strong if 2 of it were allowed in 1 game

in fact amnesiac remembering this would be fine rbing someone each night is enough reason to do so. this would also make people not trust the real jailor if they knew for sure there was a warden in the game, town would be like im not telling you my role i don't trust you
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Re: Warden [Mafia (Head)]

Postby Blackwolfe99 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:05 pm

Mystoc wrote:
Mystoc: I understand all of your concerns, if you have any other ideas besides the maximum uses let me know. There are a few things I want to address though, it becomes too easily confirmed if Amnesiac remembers the role, and I did say that if the Warden doesn't perform their day ability, then they may speak to the mafia. This means that they can not speak to the Mafia and their prisoner at the same time.


you shouldn't limit amnesiacs choices just because its a dumb choice to do, even if people dont beilve your the real jailor your still rbing them that night even rb immune roles. you made unrememberable because the role would be too strong if 2 of it were allowed in 1 game

in fact amnesiac remembering this would be fine rbing someone each night is enough reason to do so. this would also make people not trust the real jailor if they knew for sure there was a warden in the game, town would be like im not telling you my role i don't trust you

I already removed the restriction on Amnesiac while you were posting this (Me and my spastic editing...)
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EvilPudding wrote:Interesting idea and it is balanced like the WW

/support
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Re: Warden [Mafia (Head)]

Postby Blackwolfe99 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:20 pm

Bump, added survey.
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EvilPudding wrote:Interesting idea and it is balanced like the WW

/support
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Re: Warden [Mafia (Head)]

Postby Mystoc » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:00 pm

still a stronger version of consort, its OP in that regard, makes consort redundant and unneeded as well this does consorts job 10x better

if a role is gonna be jailor it needs to be a solo role not one with a team, i did recently suggest a jailor rework did you see it? i don't remember
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Re: Warden [Mafia (Head)]

Postby ManateeDude » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:07 pm

Mystoc wrote:still a stronger version of consort, its OP in that regard, makes consort redundant and unneeded as well this does consorts job 10x better

if a role is gonna be jailor it needs to be a solo role not one with a team, i did recently suggest a jailor rework did you see it? i don't remember


Thats why its Mafia Head it's meant to be OP. Quick question, can capo retrain a role into this?
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Re: Warden [Mafia (Head)]

Postby Mystoc » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:21 pm

ManateeDude wrote:
Mystoc wrote:still a stronger version of consort, its OP in that regard, makes consort redundant and unneeded as well this does consorts job 10x better

if a role is gonna be jailor it needs to be a solo role not one with a team, i did recently suggest a jailor rework did you see it? i don't remember


Thats why its Mafia Head it's meant to be OP. Quick question, can capo retrain a role into this?



if its mafia head that means it has a team, which is OP, what was trying to say is if their gonna be fake jailor role it needs to a solo role, this role is too OP with a team, also its just a better consort that's guaranteed to be in every game, this isn't the right way to fix jailor
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Re: Warden [Mafia (Head)]

Postby Blackwolfe99 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:33 pm

Mystoc wrote:
ManateeDude wrote:
Mystoc wrote:still a stronger version of consort, its OP in that regard, makes consort redundant and unneeded as well this does consorts job 10x better

if a role is gonna be jailor it needs to be a solo role not one with a team, i did recently suggest a jailor rework did you see it? i don't remember


Thats why its Mafia Head it's meant to be OP. Quick question, can capo retrain a role into this?



if its mafia head that means it has a team, which is OP, what was trying to say is if their gonna be fake jailor role it needs to a solo role, this role is too OP with a team, also its just a better consort that's guaranteed to be in every game, this isn't the right way to fix jailor

One: Mystoc, no. By your logic we shouldn't have jailor.
Also I did see your idea, I remember telling you it was swingy and unbalanced.
Two: Manatee is absolutely right, it's power justifies a Mafia Head. Not to mention, THIS IS ALSO AN FM ROLE. Thanks to Soulshade, I now know about Underboss, reworked my concept to fit it and submitted it to TG.
And no Manatee, if I remember correctly Capo can't retrain Mafia into Unique roles which this is.
Three: It's not guaranteed to be in every game, and unlike Jailor it can't take its own members to protect them, so that is a weakness to it. Not to mention as a Tactical Mafia role, it can forgo the imprison part to just kill or take the Mafia's factional kill to kill the imprisoned target.
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EvilPudding wrote:Interesting idea and it is balanced like the WW

/support
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Re: Warden [Mafia (Head)]

Postby ManateeDude » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:38 pm

Mystoc wrote:
ManateeDude wrote:
Mystoc wrote:still a stronger version of consort, its OP in that regard, makes consort redundant and unneeded as well this does consorts job 10x better

if a role is gonna be jailor it needs to be a solo role not one with a team, i did recently suggest a jailor rework did you see it? i don't remember


Thats why its Mafia Head it's meant to be OP. Quick question, can capo retrain a role into this?



if its mafia head that means it has a team, which is OP, what was trying to say is if their gonna be fake jailor role it needs to a solo role, this role is too OP with a team, also its just a better consort that's guaranteed to be in every game, this isn't the right way to fix jailor


The Mafia heads are currently:
Caporegime - can change any mafia players role to what ever they want
Do you really think OPness is a problem in mafia head category?
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Re: Warden [Mafia (Head)]

Postby Mystoc » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:40 pm

One: Mystoc, no. By your logic we shouldn't have jailor.
Also I did see your idea, I remember telling you it was swingy and unbalanced.

i have changed it more since then never said there shouldnt be jailor just that your change wasn't the right approach


Two: Manatee is absolutely right, it's power justifies a Mafia Head. Not to mention, THIS IS ALSO AN FM ROLE. Thanks to Soulshade, I now know about Underboss, reworked my concept to fit it and submitted it to TG.

just cause its from FM doesn't means its balanced or fair for town of salem, in thrones of lies all of evil factions convert and that a huge nono in ToS, different games are different


And no Manatee, if I remember correctly Capo can't retrain Mafia into Unique roles which this is.
Three: It's not guaranteed to be in every game, and unlike Jailor it can't take its own members to protect them, so that is a weakness to it. Not to mention as a Tactical Mafia role, it can forgo the imprison part to just kill or take the Mafia's factional kill to kill the imprisoned target.

mafia head sounds like a leader role to me Godfather leads mafia and is in every game you can see why i would think this role is in every game, and just becasue its not in every game doesnt mean its balanced or fair, also still no comment on how this is just a better consort?


it can forgo the imprison part to just kill or take the Mafia's factional kill to kill the imprisoned target.

how can it kill people not in prison that makes no sense to me


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Re: Warden [Mafia (Head)]

Postby Blackwolfe99 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:45 pm

Manatee, you forgot GF. GF is Mafia Head as well.
Mystoc, do you know what Tactical Mafia is? If not, then shut up.
Also Godfather is certainly not in every game. There are plenty of single Mafioso games, especially in All Any, plus if they go with TM, they can change the guaranteed GF slot in Ranked for a MH slot and have multiple roles to fill it.
Also I have no response to it being a better Consort, because it's a poor argument. It's like saying Jailor is a better escort and leaving it at that.

EDIT: Forgot to address the FM part, it certainly is since it's a variant of the Town of Salem formula, designed to be longer and allow what amounts to cosmetic changes to many roles, and essential QoL changes to others.
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EvilPudding wrote:Interesting idea and it is balanced like the WW

/support
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Re: Warden [Mafia (Head)]

Postby ManateeDude » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:53 pm

Blackwolfe99 wrote:Manatee, you forgot GF. GF is Mafia Head as well.
Mystoc, do you know what Tactical Mafia is? If not, then shut up.
Also Godfather is certainly not in every game. There are plenty of single Mafioso games, especially in All Any, plus if they go with TM, they can change the guaranteed GF slot in Ranked for a MH slot and have multiple roles to fill it.
Also I have no response to it being a better Consort, because it's a poor argument. It's like saying Jailor is a better escort and leaving it at that.

EDIT: Forgot to address the FM part, it certainly is since it's a variant of the Town of Salem formula, designed to be longer and allow what amounts to cosmetic changes to many roles, and essential QoL changes to others.

Why is GF MH tho?
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Re: Warden [Mafia (Head)]

Postby Mystoc » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:02 pm

Blackwolfe99 wrote:Manatee, you forgot GF. GF is Mafia Head as well.
Mystoc, do you know what Tactical Mafia is? If not, then shut up.
Also Godfather is certainly not in every game. There are plenty of single Mafioso games, especially in All Any, plus if they go with TM, they can change the guaranteed GF slot in Ranked for a MH slot and have multiple roles to fill it.
Also I have no response to it being a better Consort, because it's a poor argument. It's like saying Jailor is a better escort and leaving it at that.

EDIT: Forgot to address the FM part, it certainly is since it's a variant of the Town of Salem formula, designed to be longer and allow what amounts to cosmetic changes to many roles, and essential QoL changes to others.



i don't balance a role around a theoretical role list that doesnt exist in TOS , if you want to that's fine, but making a role around around a concept that does not exist in the game is something i don't doo, tactical mafia doesn't exist so i don't know about it i follow the balance of what's in the game not what inst yet, i follow the actually game itself, so no i don't know about theoretical role lists that don't exisit

i agree with you escort is unneeded it shouldn't exist or jailor needs to not roleblock (even it makes no sense lore wise), but it is in the game already that cant be changed by me,

saying its ok because another example like it exists in the game, is like saying rng is ok cause pirate and psychic exist and we both know those roles suck

its still a different game, and for all you know it could be unbalanced in FM, ToS certainly has unbalanced roles in it, so FM could have some unbalanced roles as well (i do not play FM so i wouldn't know but this role seems OP to me by ToS standards)

a fake jailor should be a solo neutral not have a team, having teamates is too strong, saying its mafia head so its ok bad, designing a role spot just for strong roles doesn't mean the strong roles aren't helping mafia win the role still exists,

(a fake jailor should never have a team please explain why you think a role this strong needs a team)
my jailor change has been reworked since you last looked at it now gives town more outs if the jailor is evil it if you want to see it i will link it or pm it too you
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Re: Warden [Mafia (Head)]

Postby Blackwolfe99 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:16 pm

Spoiler:
ManateeDude wrote:
Blackwolfe99 wrote:Manatee, you forgot GF. GF is Mafia Head as well.
Mystoc, do you know what Tactical Mafia is? If not, then shut up.
Also Godfather is certainly not in every game. There are plenty of single Mafioso games, especially in All Any, plus if they go with TM, they can change the guaranteed GF slot in Ranked for a MH slot and have multiple roles to fill it.
Also I have no response to it being a better Consort, because it's a poor argument. It's like saying Jailor is a better escort and leaving it at that.

EDIT: Forgot to address the FM part, it certainly is since it's a variant of the Town of Salem formula, designed to be longer and allow what amounts to cosmetic changes to many roles, and essential QoL changes to others.

Why is GF MH tho?

Because he's the leader of the Mafia, he can order Mafia to kill for him, and he receives information from all Mafia about what happens during the night with them.

Spoiler:
i don't balance a role around a theoretical role list that doesnt exist int TOS , if you want to that's fine, but making a role around around a concept that does not exist in the game is something i don't doo, tactical mafia doesn't exist so i don't know about it i follow the balance of whats in the game not yet, i follow the actually game itself, so no i don't know about theoretical role lists that isn't in the game

i agree with you escort is unneeded it shouldn't exist or jailor needs to not roleblock (even it makes no sense lore wise), but it is in the game already that cant be changed by me,

saying its ok because another example like exists in the game, is like saying rng is ok cause pirate and psychic exist and we both know those roles suck

it still a different game, and for all you know it could be unbalanced in FM, ToS certainly has unbalanced roles in it, so FM could have some unbalanced roles as well (i do not play this game so i wouldn't know but this role seems OP to me)

a fake jailor should be a solo neutral not have a team, having teamates is too strong, saying its mafia head so its ok bad, designing a role spot just for strong roles doesn't mean the strong roles aren't helping mafia win the role still exists,

(a fake jailor should never have a team please explain why you think a role this strong needs a team)
my jailor change has been reworked since you last looked at it now gives town more outs if the jailor is evil it if you want to see it i will link it or pm it too you

Escort isn't unneeded since it does what Jailor does with more freedom in terms of decision making and less pressure in making the right choice, plus it was actually in the Mafia/Social Deduction genre before the Jailor concept was.

I like Pirate though, it's a fun role and it's NOT RNG, RNG IS RANDOM NUMBER GENERATION. Do not use an RNG argument until you understand what it means and how it applies. Psychic, however, is guided RNG, and is way too powerful.

Ironically, last I checked of your evil Jailor, it had more allies than the Warden could ever have, although it was more like the actual Jailor in that it needed to find those allies, whereas Warden may have anywhere from none to three guaranteed and any number of Neutrals who would probably betray it for a more likely to win side. It still had more allies.

Warden can have a team, because it's meant to bolster the Mafia's power in a similar fashion to the GF or Capo. Evil Jailor doesn't need to be a solo neutral, going to good old ToL. They used to have a Black Rose, now known as Unseen, Prince. However, unlike the Evil Prince, there can be a Jailor to put down the Warden should they figure out who the Warden is.
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EvilPudding wrote:Interesting idea and it is balanced like the WW

/support
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Re: Warden [Mafia (Head)]

Postby Mystoc » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:28 pm

Escort isn't unneeded since it does what Jailor does with more freedom in terms of decision making and less pressure in making the right choice, plus it was actually in the Mafia/Social Deduction genre before the Jailor concept was.

how does it have more freedom jailor can just be escort and astraly roleblock anyone it wants each night, pressure of being an important role has nothing to do with escort / jailor being different roles, just cause a role is first doesnt mean its the one the that needs to stay


I like Pirate though, it's a fun role and it's NOT RNG, RNG IS RANDOM NUMBER GENERATION. Do not use an RNG argument until you understand what it means and how it applies. Psychic, however, is guided RNG, and is way too powerful.

pirate is RNG since you have no way of knowing or guessing what the person will choice ,its less RNG then psychic but is RNG also not gonna argue about RNGness of pirate when we are discussing jailor


Ironically, last I checked of your evil Jailor, it had more allies than the Warden could ever have, although it was more like the actual Jailor in that it needed to find those allies, whereas Warden may have anywhere from none to three guaranteed and any number of Neutrals who would probably betray it for a more likely to win side. It still had more allies.

evil jailor can win with all evils like witch but none if its allies know if its evil or not (it has no teammates that will 100% side with it) evils aren't told at the start of the game if jailor is evil or good


Warden can have a team, because it's meant to bolster the Mafia's power in a similar fashion to the GF or Capo. Evil Jailor doesn't need to be a solo neutral, going to good old ToL. They used to have a Black Rose, now known as Unseen, Prince. However, unlike the Evil Prince, there can be a Jailor to put down the Warden should they figure out who the Warden is.

its bolsters mafia's power to much that is the problem,
stop using other games has a reason why something can work (conversion is not allowed in ToS so the concept of an evil jailor works their cause the old jailor is now evil, your role doesn't do that) they to completely different types of games,

still haven't seen a reason why it needs a team none of the reasons you said are supportive to this

jailor has a team but no one knows who the jailor is at the start of the game, this role has 3 auto teammates who knows who they are right away and has private night chat with to to share the info it gets its too strong
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Re: Warden [Mafia (Head)]

Postby Blackwolfe99 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:49 pm

Mystoc wrote:Escort isn't unneeded since it does what Jailor does with more freedom in terms of decision making and less pressure in making the right choice, plus it was actually in the Mafia/Social Deduction genre before the Jailor concept was.

how does it have more freedom jailor can just be escort and astraly roleblock anyone it wants each night, pressure of being an important role has nothing to do with escort / jailor being different roles, just cause a role is first doesnt mean its the one the that needs to stay


Too have a weaker stopping power than Jailor with more mobility, plus more chances to spawn.

I like Pirate though, it's a fun role and it's NOT RNG, RNG IS RANDOM NUMBER GENERATION. Do not use an RNG argument until you understand what it means and how it applies. Psychic, however, is guided RNG, and is way too powerful.

pirate is RNG since you have no way of knowing or guessing what the person will choice ,its less RNG then psychic but is RNG also not gonna argue about RNGness of pirate when we are discussing jailor


I literally just facepalmed reading this, you have no idea what RNG is. RNG is how we get our roles or Exes and GAs get targets, RNG is not a human aspect, it's a system aspect.

Ironically, last I checked of your evil Jailor, it had more allies than the Warden could ever have, although it was more like the actual Jailor in that it needed to find those allies, whereas Warden may have anywhere from none to three guaranteed and any number of Neutrals who would probably betray it for a more likely to win side. It still had more allies.

evil jailor can win with all evils like witch but none if its allies know if its evil or not (it has no teammates that will 100% side with it) evils aren't told at the start of the game if jailor is evil or good


And yet is infinitely more powerful than Witch, your argument just fell flat.

Warden can have a team, because it's meant to bolster the Mafia's power in a similar fashion to the GF or Capo. Evil Jailor doesn't need to be a solo neutral, going to good old ToL. They used to have a Black Rose, now known as Unseen, Prince. However, unlike the Evil Prince, there can be a Jailor to put down the Warden should they figure out who the Warden is.

its bolsters mafia's power to much that is the problem,
stop using other games has a reason why something can work (conversion is not allowed in ToS so the concept of an evil jailor works their cause the old jailor is now evil, your role doesn't do that) they to completely different types of games,

still haven't seen a reason why it needs a team none of the reasons you said are supportive to this

jailor has a team but no one knows who the jailor is at the start of the game, this role has 3 auto teammates who knows who they are right away its too strong

They're not COMPLETELY DIFFERENT KINDS of games, they are both Online Mafia games, and in this case they comparison is apt. Ready for this? Your idea is worse than why the Evil Prince got removed. It pulls the only real power the Town has away through the very thing you hate, guess what it is? RNG! At least an Evil prince puts a ton of doubt on the allegiance of the Prince in that game, but because it only was obtained through conversion, it got removed. Warden is similar without the need for converting the Jailor.

Also why shouldn't Mafia have more power in it? Currently the Town carries the most power, individual Coven roles outclass equivalent Mafia roles by a noticeable factor, granted they're all unique and are easily confirmed. The SK and Arso outclass every single Mafia role by virtue of their ability to murder Mafia more effectively than the Town can. The most effective ways of buffing the Mafia is to give them TM, which makes it to where we're not always looking for Mafioso or GF fakeclaims anymore, and give them Powerful roles to stand up to the TPow roles (Mayor, Jailor, Retri).
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EvilPudding wrote:Interesting idea and it is balanced like the WW

/support
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