Role-Prophet

Old Role Ideas

Role-Prophet

Postby cupcakeaj2 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:43 pm

Role-Prophet

Alignment-Town Invest

Abilities-Choose 4 roles using a moon icon at night.

Attributes-You will be informed how many of the roles you picked are in the game.

Ex. You have decided to speak a prophecy about the Disguiser, Werewolf, Vampire, and Serial Killer.
2 of these roles are in game!

This includes dead, cleaned, and stoned people.

You can only pick one currently dead role in your prophecy. (Cleaned and stoned don't count as dead)

Sheriff-NS

Invest-Look Forge Amne CovenL Prophet

Consig-Your target is rambling about magic. They must be a Prophet!

Goal-Town Goal
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Re: Role-Prophet

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:11 pm

This is a role that just devastates claimspace, which is bad. Just pick the first two dead people, and then pick the third role you want to know whether it's in the game or not. If it says two roles are in the game, the person claiming the third cannot be their role, because the dead people are confirmed as the two this role announces.
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Re: Role-Prophet

Postby Mystoc » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:19 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:This is a role that just devastates claimspace, which is bad. Just pick the first two dead people, and then pick the third role you want to know whether it's in the game or not. If it says two roles are in the game, the person claiming the third cannot be their role, because the dead people are confirmed as the two this role announces.


i disagree this is very weak its psychic 2.0 all over again any role can fake this

it doesn't help find evils at all unlike psychic the idea of it is strong yes but you can't confirm yourself and scums can fake this very easily it will be a very high scum claimed role i would limit it too

edit:
3-4 picks a night though

i think this role is far to weak to be TI it doesn't really do anything an evil cant fake

----------------------------------
edit:
also you don't pick people you pick roles there can be double of a role it proves nothing if someone else claims a role that is dead

if it does what you say i at most gets one role a night that it knows isn't or is the game that is a very weak TI since it can't confirm yourself , it can only do the pick roles that are dead think once at least 2 people are dead
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Re: Role-Prophet

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:26 pm

Jimmy the Lookout and Francis the Bodyguard die. Carl claims Escort. You use your ability to see if there are any Lookouts, Bodyguards, and Escorts in the game. "Two of these roles are in the game!" Presto, Carl is confirmed to be lying. You already know two of them are in the game, the dead Bodyguard and Lookout. But that means there is no Escort, Carl can't be telling the truth. Evils can claim to be this role but it's just a matter of being right, if someone claims this role and is actively calling out evils they're most likely Town. It doesn't work well with dead people, true, but not everyone is going to be claiming the role of a dead person.
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Re: Role-Prophet

Postby cupcakeaj2 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:28 pm

I put some balancing edits. Help me.
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Re: Role-Prophet

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:31 pm

If it's unable to do what I was saying, it's far too weak, but if it can it's just swingy and based on RNG, I don't really think this idea works since it just destroys claimspace.
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Re: Role-Prophet

Postby Mystoc » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:51 pm

Jimmy the Lookout and Francis the Bodyguard die. Carl claims Escort. You use your ability to see if there are any Lookouts, Bodyguards, and Escorts in the game. "Two of these roles are in the game!" Presto, Carl is confirmed to be lying. You already know two of them are in the game, the dead Bodyguard and Lookout. But that means there is no Escort, Carl can't be telling the truth. Evils can claim to be this role but it's just a matter of being right, if someone claims this role and is actively calling out evils they're most likely Town. It doesn't work well with dead people, true, but not everyone is going to be claiming the role of a dead person.



it shows dead roles also has being in game it does not show doubles so it wont tell you there two of something in the game

it can't do what your example till at least two people die

it can only eliminate one role a night with your example very weak

a smart evil will claim a role that is dead then this role is useless

or delay claiming has long has possible since each death it's more likely it can claim a role that is dead making this role useless

it is only strong if it can get a person to claim something that isn't dead yet

even if it does and see the claimed role is not in the game it has to convince town of this even it does get the person hanged it doesn't prove them has TI since town has no way of knowing what role isn't or isn't in the game it could been it could easily be an NK or mafia member that got the other side hanged or NE

either way it is the only ti that can prove its ti through getting who they say is evil hanged (psychic isn't like this since its ability directly tells it an evil , this role just says a role is or isn't in a game

this is the weakest ti in the game has no way to prove it self even it finds evils and is very easy for scum to fake

-----------------------------------
edit:
the only thing that prolly needs balancing is the number of roles it allowed to pick each night to check i think it should be 3 and only 3
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Re: Role-Prophet

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:55 pm

You call it incredibly weak and then say the only thing that needs to be changed is the number of roles it can check? That doesn't make it stronger at all, which means it's still far too weak to be a good TI.
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Re: Role-Prophet

Postby Mystoc » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:58 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:You call it incredibly weak and then say the only thing that needs to be changed is the number of roles it can check? That doesn't make it stronger at all, which means it's still far too weak to be a good TI.


i agree to weak and to easy to fake

i suggested that to make the role better not worse but even then it may not be enough to make the role viable

i did just think of an OP way this role could be used that makes it stronger

you can check jailor or revealed mayor

jailor is always in the game

mayor can prove itself

-----------------------------------------------------

i would change it so it can't check jailor has a role but mayor seems fair to check since it isnt in every game and it has to reveal and put a target on its back to confirm itself
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Re: Role-Prophet

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:02 pm

You still only need to check a role like Coven Leader with Coven or Godfather in a Mafia game, then check it with the NK role, then you'll have two roles that are always in the game. Check that with whatever two people are claiming and boom, still too strong.
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Re: Role-Prophet

Postby cupcakeaj2 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:07 pm

U don't have that many smart players in each game.
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Re: Role-Prophet

Postby lemonader666 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:11 pm

But what if you're playing a party of 15 smart players?
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Re: Role-Prophet

Postby Mystoc » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:13 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:You still only need to check a role like Coven Leader with Coven or Godfather in a Mafia game, then check it with the NK role, then you'll have two roles that are always in the game. Check that with whatever two people are claiming and boom, still too strong.



ehhh easy ways around that just make it so you cant check roles that are guaranteed to be in gamemode

even if it was kept in so you can could check gf / cl / jailor it still weak

even then it's just figuring out there isn't or is a role once a night

its very weak ability since it can't confirm itself and any evil can just claim this since town can't possibly call them out on lying or confirm they are telling the truth since they don't know every single role in the game

even if its guaranteed knowing 1 role isn't or is in a game prove it it's not that useful

edit : even it checks a role and it is in the game it does not mean that person is that role just that it's in the game so its very weak role since it can only tell someone lied if they role isn't in the game at all

only powerful when you get evils to claim a role that isn't dead and then you have to convince town they lied and even then you could easily be NK or a faction trying to get an enemy evil hanged so it can't confirm itself at all to weak of a role and waaay to easy to fake
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Re: Role-Prophet

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:18 pm

cupcakeaj2 wrote:U don't have that many smart players in each game.

All balance changes have to be made assuming that the players are at least halfway decent. We don't balance for gamethrowers, trolls, and non 'smart' players.



Exactly, Mystoc. The role is too weak. Forcing it to always check four doesn't make it viable at all. It's situationally strong, which means it's swingy. If scum claim a role that isn't in the game they're going to be lynched, if not they wont. It doesn't matter it if can't self-confirm, all Town needs to do is lynch either the Prophet or the evil role. Then even though the Prophet is not confirmed, it's still a trustworthy Townie until it does something stupid. Saying it can't self-confirm and thus is bad isn't true, less confirmability is better.
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Re: Role-Prophet

Postby Mystoc » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:28 pm

Exactly, Mystoc. The role is too weak. Forcing it to always check four doesn't make it viable at all. It's situationally strong, which means it's swingy. If scum claim a role that isn't in the game they're going to be lynched, if not they wont. It doesn't matter it if can't self-confirm, all Town needs to do is lynch either the Prophet or the evil role. Then even though the Prophet is not confirmed, it's still a trustworthy Townie until it does something stupid. Saying it can't self-confirm and thus is bad isn't true, less confirmability is better.


If scum claim a role that isn't in the game they're going to be lynched,


ok i was responding to this to you when you said it was to strong still :P

changing the amount it can check makes it slightly stronger but i would say it still say it's to weak


a smart scum will wait to claim then claim a role already dead and if it does claim a role that isn't dead if that role is in the game at all prophet is useless since it doesn't prove anything of the persons guilt

lynching the evil does no prove its prophet it could be NK NC or faction faking the role still or faction member throwing a suspected ally under the bus to gain towns trust


if the only way it confirm its the prophet is it deing i would say definitely to weak all other TI can prove themselves this role cant


lynching the evil does not prove its prophet it could be NK NC or faction faking the role still

yea its not OP in any situation and can only rarely catch an evil in a lie in a role claim

even then there reasons a town would lie about their role AKA a vig in coven games so an evil can change its claim it needs too
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Re: Role-Prophet

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:31 pm

I already said it was only situationally strong. Also, claiming a role that's dead doesn't account for things like having to explain night immunity or Investigators, or even a Lookout seeing you visit. Scum only claiming dead roles is trying to avoid this one role, but there are other TIs to avoid so it would be stupid to always claim dead roles.

Lynching an evil doesn't mean you're confirmed as any role. For Prophet, it makes them look like trusted Town, not confirmed Town. There are evil roles made specifically to fake Investigator. Sheriff is easy to fake. As is Lookout and Tracker if you know what you're doing. Psychic is easy as well. This role is just as hard to confirm as others.
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Re: Role-Prophet

Postby Mystoc » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:46 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:I already said it was only situationally strong. Also, claiming a role that's dead doesn't account for things like having to explain night immunity or Investigators, or even a Lookout seeing you visit. Scum only claiming dead roles is trying to avoid this one role, but there are other TIs to avoid so it would be stupid to always claim dead roles.

Lynching an evil doesn't mean you're confirmed as any role. For Prophet, it makes them look like trusted Town, not confirmed Town. There are evil roles made specifically to fake Investigator. Sheriff is easy to fake. As is Lookout and Tracker if you know what you're doing. Psychic is easy as well. This role is just as hard to confirm as others.


sheriff can connect its hanging to evils dying so it can confirm itself by getting evils killed

mafia cant / wont throw mafia under the bus almost ever so really only can fake sheriff getting NK hanged and then you have to know who they are which only happens if you attack them and they are night immune this is very obv play and will be apparent when the sheriff suddenly isn't finding any mafia the rest of the game

NK can get lucky and call out mafia to get them hanged and confirm itself but if it calls out a town its thought has exe and instantly executed / hanged

LO can be faked if you put no visits which is very susp a LO confirms itself through seeing visits and other confirming they did visit same with tracker

psychic can be faked yes but not has easily has this role also and if you pay attention to who they said was evil and you can prove all are good they are instantly called out has lying ,

the prophet can never be called out since town doesn't know every role in the game so it's very easy scum claim and hard to get town to trust you


doesn't account for things like having to explain night immunity or Investigators, or even a Lookout seeing you visit.


ok but those example are using other roles to prove something which applies to every role in the game and is not relevant to this role at all


only spy / vig can confirm night immunity


again inves is a different role nothing to do with this one

again LO seeing you visit nothing to with this role being weak

in the rare places is is strong and finds a evil claimed a role isn't in the game

sheriff or LO tracker or inves woulda gotten a lot more done then it (even then it has to get others to trust it when it has no way to prove itself unlike every ti in the game
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Re: Role-Prophet

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:48 pm

Mafia can bus Mafia and SK if the Mafia is being too susp, that makes them look like Sheriff. They don't have to look like Sheriff for the entire game, because they're evil an they obviously wont when they start voting against Town. You can fake Lookout/Tracker when SK attacks the Godfather, have one Mafia member claim Doctor and the other claim Lookout/Tracker. If the Mafia finds SK, they can claim Tracker and use SK as a target to confirm themselves. It would also work with WW/Arso, though WW only works when claiming Tracker.
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Re: Role-Prophet

Postby Mystoc » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:57 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:Mafia can bus Mafia and SK if the Mafia is being too susp, that makes them look like Sheriff. They don't have to look like Sheriff for the entire game, because they're evil an they obviously wont when they start voting against Town. You can fake Lookout/Tracker when SK attacks the Godfather, have one Mafia member claim Doctor and the other claim Lookout/Tracker. If the Mafia finds SK, they can claim Tracker and use SK as a target to confirm themselves. It would also work with WW/Arso, though WW only works when claiming Tracker.


it's almost never a good idea to bus a mafia member unless they are all ready suspected if they are is very obs play to do and doesn't really confirm you, busin a unsuspected mafia member is a very bad idea because it loses you a team members who was in the clear its not worth it

ok assuming you know who sk is again getting NK only hanged has sheriff or LO or tacker and never finding mafia is susp esp if mafia isn't killing a known TI

basicly TI that only ever finds NK and never dies after it finds NK is prolly mafia or coven

if a mafia members backs you up tracker or LO and says they visited it can work but is very very all in and extremely risky if either of you dies the other dies to since they know an evil lied for you or you lied to save an evil
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Re: Role-Prophet

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:05 pm

All of that applies to Prophet. Prophet only finds NK? That's suspicious. Prophet only kills obvious Mafia? Suspicious. All of that applies to this role as well, it's equally as easy to claim overall, but it's not strong enough to work around that.
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Re: Role-Prophet

Postby Mystoc » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:19 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:All of that applies to Prophet. Prophet only finds NK? That's suspicious. Prophet only kills obvious Mafia? Suspicious. All of that applies to this role as well, it's equally as easy to claim overall, but it's not strong enough to work around that.



ok we agree it's too weak i think its never strong in any situation though that's was my point
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Re: Role-Prophet

Postby cupcakeaj2 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:35 pm

So any idea how to make it a little stronger?
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Prophet

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ALL:

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Re: Role-Prophet

Postby lemonader666 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:57 pm

maybe add a different ability on full moons like psychic? You can choose 2-3 people and see if one of them is a good role.
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Re: Role-Prophet

Postby cupcakeaj2 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:58 pm

I'm not copying Psychic. I'm gonna change this a little but I'm not copying Psychic.
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Prophet

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Re: Role-Prophet

Postby cupcakeaj2 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:00 pm

Should I add the maybe part in?
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Mad Scientist

Prophet

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ALL:

5 - 6 - 2

TOWN:

3 - 4 - 1

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